F-15 Eagle
New Member
They did have cruisers at one time, they used to go global before the left wing government came to power and severly slashed defense spending, so now they are just a light force for only local crisis.
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
- Start date
What country the size of NZ operates 6 frigates and 2 cruisers, for that matter what countries today operate cruisers, no European countries have them, australia doesn't, only the US and Russia have them and only the US can really afford them. You have to be practical, NZ is a small country which has as much chance of being invaded as sending a man to the moon.
Ironically enough it was a National (centre-right) Govt that slashed the defence budget - under the guise of a 'end of cold war' peace dividend! (1990 - 91 or thereabouts).
They basically told the NZDF overnight their budget was slashed 30% & gave no directive whatsoever as to how they were to cope or change what they do to suite. They were utterly & completely crapped on! National continued in power thoughout the 90's which saw the NZDF literally wither with no significant purchases or upgrades - until in their last couple of years they suddenly woke-up & to their credit signed up for the sweethaeart deal for 28 x F-16S, plus C-130 & P-3K upgrades, and a few other key equipment purchases.
Unfortunately while they signed up for these, the NZDF itself was by now showing definite signs of dysfunction, and was sufferring in-fighting between the 3 services. National continued to ignore the remuneration scales (still set at 1990 levels & barely above the minimum wage); dilapidated infrastructure etc etc & trumpeted their 'big-ticket' purchases (a.k.a. window dressing). In fact if they'd stayed in that state the NZDF wouldn't have been able to support or sustain new equipment as it arrived.
Labour gets in, reviews the state of the NZDF & gets stuck into turning the NZDF around - including tackling (but not necessarily solving) problems with remuneration; infrastructure etc - and re-equipping the NZDF. However yes their 'left leaning' has meant the NZDF have been deliberately 'dumbed down' to a peace-keeping force who still rely heavily on the ADF for support.
Labour have commited what is by NZ standards historically high amounts on defence - but yes it has been very 'focused' away from direct combat capapbility. Trouble is it is now clear that National by & large agree with what Labour is doing with defence & intends to take a very similar course.
we NZer's are generally quite apathetic when it comes to defence - or for that matter anything other than rugby!..
True, we have to be practical although, we tend to focus on our land mass, even population and distance from threats as an excuse. The oceans that surround us are an asset so why did we all go sentimental when the French were nuclear testing a few thousand miles away why did we send a frigate in protest no chance of being invaded there!! Because we consider the south pacific our back yard we also depend on vital sea lanes for trade in the region as we are a true maritime nation.
We need to take defence seriously in our region the NZ people have a stand offish attitude we wont be invaded! But we have to understand we are part of a wider community and technology makes distance now to our shores less of an obstacle it is in our best interests to maintain regional stability, form worthwile defence partnerships and monitor and deter anything that breaches security to our national interests and also the region.
When was the last time any western country was invaded! apart from the 9/11 terrorist actions that threw most of us into a different type of war now. The thinking we wont get invaded goes along with an isolationist view that we dont really have to do anything hence Aust and the USA have to make up for our inadequacies in defence. Depending on the good will of nations is bit like believing we dont need police because we will depend on the good will of citizens, far from it! Their will always be a bad element in societies a good defence acts as a deterrent just like police and prisons.
NZ wants to do their own thing hence we didnt want the ANZUS alliance good on us we know what we want, but why do we go back and ask for help from the aussies and yanks for defence in the region?? We have shot ourselves in the foot! Its a wonder they grumple when we decide to not prop up our fair share. If we think we wont be attacked then a police force should suffice for us, as it is always about us being in the middle of nowhere far far away from the troubles of any place.
Maybe we are on another planet altogether where peace and love reign, may be on the moon!
Then my guess is it will never happen, us getting six frigates.....sorry to say its pie in the sky!!
Most of us would be happy to get a third! My wish list would be to see us get four new frigates and sell the current two add another MRV with more sea lift capabitilties and upgrade the MRVs to handle medium level hostilities and the frigates and subs to handle direct threats. Two new MCMs and Hydrographic ship, and a new supply vessel that has sea lift and double as a troopship or can be reconfigured for different operations and three submarines to Collins class or better. I'm sending this list to Santa as well hehe.
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Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Actually to be honest, I don't have an issue with the armament (or lack thereof) of the IPVs. Given the shorter range of the IPV (3,000 n miles) and due to its smaller size and lower displacement, the vessel is unlikely to conduct open ocean transits. With that in mind, that the IPV is unlikely to ever deploy away from NZ, and that the primary mission is to conduct maritime surveillance from the shoreline to 24 n miles, something larger than a 0.50 cal is not really needed. If the IPVs were to be in situations where it might have to engage another vessel, then something larger would make sense. In the context that the RNZN is likely to use them though, it seems fine. Even for just EEZ patroling, 0.50 cal. seems sufficient, that is what the Australian Oceanic Viking is armed with.
-Cheers
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Well like it or not, there is next to no chance that NZ WILL get invaded. Ever.
Yes NZ is part of the wider world, but it takes many things to be capable of undertaking an invasion of an entire Country, intent and the capability to do so are amongst the most important things that are required.
Which Country has both of these that NZ should worry about? China? Russia? USA? France? Australia? Imagining that NZ will become involved in a war of national survival in a traditional State on State style conflict is ludicrous. To think that she will do so without assistance is futile.
NZ should rightly therefore concentrate on maintaining forces capable of deployment overseas and those capable of conducting domestic security tasks, CT roles, maritime security roles (including fisheries, anti-smuggling operations as well as the more traditional naval capabilities) etc.
Unless a nation should attempt to "take over the world" WW2 style, I think the NZ homeland will be pretty safe...
Obviously we wont get invaded.........my point was not to let it be an excuse to not do our share of commitments in defence with the Aussies as our two countries share a mutual relationship on all levels of defence, politics, etc although it is good to hear that we are committing more money to defence and to the retention of our defence forces and that they have put down plans and goals as to where they want to go with it "NZDF LTP" is a positive.........I guess some direction beats twiddling our thumbs, as to the direction the NZDF has taken......its another matter for another time .
Can we do these roles in a manner that is competent and with the confidence of the training, technology that is modern and the right tools to complete the task well, that is arguable?
Will we see wars like WWII again? Probably not I'm well aware of that, what I'm saying is we need to increase our spending on defence to a minimum of 1.5% of GDP if not more to take our role that you presribed earlier seriously, I think most of you red blooded cave men would agree on that issue alone.
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RNZN working with USCG on Fisheries Patrol
Found this article about the RNZN working with USCG to develop protocols for Fisheries protection in the South Pacific.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4158713a7693.html
Found this article about the RNZN working with USCG to develop protocols for Fisheries protection in the South Pacific.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4158713a7693.html
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Assuming I've found the correct info from the USCG website regarding the Walnut (WLB 205), normally based in Honolulu. http://www.uscg.mil/datasheet/225wlb.asp Interesting vessel, described as a seagoing buoy tender, but weighing some 2000 tons in displacement. Scoop website says the RNZN crew joined the vessel in the Solomon Islands but otherwise same info as reported on the Stuff website.
This is good news for improved NZ navy and agency co-operation and procedural training etc - but any thoughts as to whether we will see more such co-operation in the short term?
I think it's almost certain - although it may be more in the medium-term! I'd love to see the USCG in NZ, a very practical level of co-op.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=49&objectid=10457352
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
It is interesting to be hearing the Defence Minister again (and the PM a couple of years ago) say that they would welcome any visits by the USCG to NZ, but if that is the case why don't they offer an actual invitation (as the article goes on to explain how the invitation process works) ... or is there more to this than what we the public here are told? That is, is this Govt spin knowing full well that there is something the US objects to behind the scenes that prevents them publically agreeing to visit, which makes the Govt "look above board" etc? Not wishing to stir up anything or knock the Govt, but this is becoming a familair pattern with no impasse (i.e. visits are ok, but none are expected etc).
Interesting
It is interesting that this level of cooperation has started it only follows the type of defence policy for the navy this labour government envisaged will we see the last vestiges of a blue water navy be watered down to more of a coast guard role in the future?
Only time will tell, although this is a good start in terms of bridging ties with the USA, this also allows more cross flow of information between the countries participating in this excercise which could only mean better maritime detection and apprehension of illegal activities in our region.
It is interesting that this level of cooperation has started it only follows the type of defence policy for the navy this labour government envisaged will we see the last vestiges of a blue water navy be watered down to more of a coast guard role in the future?
Only time will tell, although this is a good start in terms of bridging ties with the USA, this also allows more cross flow of information between the countries participating in this excercise which could only mean better maritime detection and apprehension of illegal activities in our region.
Keep in mind the USCG is now under the Dept. of Homeland Security and not the previous Dept. of Transportation. The USCG now receives its annual funding whereas in the past under Transportation it never received its proposed annual funding. This change in Departmentt has been wonderful for the USCG. New cutters are being built, new patrol boats are being discuissed, and recently two classes of buoy tenders were built.
The Juniper class of sea going buoy tenders are the work horses of the coast guard.While slow vessels, they get the job done. The first coast guard ship that arrived when an airliner crashed off Long Island, New York was the Juniper. Congress delayed them one year to add oil spill equipment aboard.
The Juniper class of sea going buoy tenders are the work horses of the coast guard.While slow vessels, they get the job done. The first coast guard ship that arrived when an airliner crashed off Long Island, New York was the Juniper. Congress delayed them one year to add oil spill equipment aboard.
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recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Thanks Sea Toby, very interesting to hear the news on developments within the CG, including the new ship building projects. Is this simply to replace much older vessels or does the Dept of Homeland Security perceive a much greater seaborne terrorism threat etc and thus requires an expanded fleet to better protect US ports and interests etc? Also would the DoHS be expecting any serious trouble resulting in the need to see the new ships armed with something serious enough to stop or sink a threat (eg small caliber cannon etc)? And will the CG be receiving any new ice-breaker vessels to patrol US northern interests (similar to what the Canadians are proposing) especially in light of recent Russian interest in the North Pole region etc?
Actually the Coast Guard will be building fewer ships in the replacement of the Hamilitons, Bears, and Renaisance classes. They will have 57 mm guns, with room and space for other weapons. But they will have modern communications....Much like before, they will be cutters, not frigates but similar to an OPV.
There will be two classes, one frigate sized and one smaller. Most of the cutters will be of the smaller sized. The Hamilitons are approaching the end of their lives along with the possibly to small Renaissances. The Bears will most likely be replaced last at the end of the contruction program.
A new patrol boat program to replace the Island class should start soon. The Island class modernization program was cancelled as it failed.
There will be two classes, one frigate sized and one smaller. Most of the cutters will be of the smaller sized. The Hamilitons are approaching the end of their lives along with the possibly to small Renaissances. The Bears will most likely be replaced last at the end of the contruction program.
A new patrol boat program to replace the Island class should start soon. The Island class modernization program was cancelled as it failed.
Investigator
New Member
Comments deleted.
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Navy Today
I was just wondering what has happened to the "Navy Today" publication?
I have always thought it was a quality read, of much higher quality than the RAN version (Navy News). It's stories are much more in depth and with project protector going on I would think the the RNZN would be trying to squeeze out every last drop of publicity.
However the last issue on the offical web site is from May.
Any Idea what happened ?.
I was just wondering what has happened to the "Navy Today" publication?
I have always thought it was a quality read, of much higher quality than the RAN version (Navy News). It's stories are much more in depth and with project protector going on I would think the the RNZN would be trying to squeeze out every last drop of publicity.
However the last issue on the offical web site is from May.
Any Idea what happened ?.
Its still going. I don't know what happen to the June edition, but I've had July and August in the mail. As for NZDF websites the navy takes second to last place for the regular updating of information. The Ministry of Defence takes the prize for worst layout and longest time between updates (esp acquisitions).