Bushmaster 'Ute'

[lobbie111]

Well as you may or may not know, well I'm not entirely sure myself but ADI is supposedly offering a bushmaster UTE offering 10m2 of cargo space.

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-apv-bushmaster.htm

(only problem is im not sure because this is the only place i've found such facts)

Instead of buying masses of new unimogs or anything like that wouldnt it be an idea to use bushmasters as trucks, sure it might need a bigger engine and uprated chassis but with increased protection and the comfort (so ive heard) of a bushmaster plus the added fact of commonality ie. parts i think it would be a better option.

Please this is only one mans opinion so slander and abuse me all you like but i would like to know everyone elses opinion

 

[AGRA]

Its called the Copperhead ACSV [Armoured Combat Support Vehicle] and its real and is at least two years old - I climbed over the prototype at the 2005 Land Warfare Conference and have been up close and personal with it, including at its home in Bendigo a few times since. It can carry 5 tonnes on its tray.

It hasn't been ordered by the ADF and the Land 121/3 field vehicle (Unimog, etc) replacement project. Some 250 normal Bushmasters have been ordered for combat support roles. In the cargo category of the Copperhead the ADF will be acquiring the Stewart & Stevenson FMTV 4x4 which can be fitted with a fully armoured cab as so:

http://www.ericsiegmund.com/images/fireant/iraq/charlie.jpg

But the Copperhead would be good. However the Government is pissed off big time with Thales australia and Oshkosh for not selling Bushmasters to the US Army for MRAP. So no icing on their cake and a Copperhead launch order.

 

[lobbie111]

thanks for the info agra it would have been a great complement to the bushmaster in my opinion 5 tonnes you say wow more than i thought

 

[jacktar]

Well as you may or may not know, well I'm not entirely sure myself but ADI is supposedly offering a bushmaster UTE offering 10m2 of cargo space.

Yes the Copperhead has 10m2 tray deck. It is designed for an ISO 1E container. In addition to the 4-5 tonnes on the tray, it can also pull a similar load on a trailer, giving it a very useful payload for a protected vehicle. There are also plans for a "Dual-Cab" version which would be ideal for specialised roles such as dragging around things like TPQ-36s. The shelter would fit nicely on the tray, room for a crew of 5 in the vehicle and the antenna assembly on the hook. But we will have to wait until after the election to see if anything will ever come of the Copperhead.

 

[lobbie111]

How about a parakeet system for the bushmaster, you could and I do mean could mount a large caliber mortar or small caliber artillery piece such as a system like the ceaser artillery system used by the French, the list is endless and yes i do hope to see them after the election on the off chance it actually happens

 

[buglerbilly]

Talking about "IF's".......

Copperhead could carry a rear-mounted M-777 155mm Howitzer for example BUT then again so could FMTV as they offered a Portee version ala the Supacat 800 version offered by BAE for LIMAWS(G) - now terminated at least for the next 2-3 years.

There is an argument that says we should procure Portee's rather than traditional gun tractors for our new M-777's if Australia finally decides to procure such, NOT a guaranteed buy. All depends on what they decide to do with reagrds to Towed versus Tracked versus Wheeled 155mm howitzers.

Supacat already offers a Portee version and BAE (as "owner" of the Portee version) has a strong presence here but they also own FMTV's manufacturer so could easily offer that. Copperhead would remain on the Outer even in these potential discussions.

Oshkosh and Thales appear to make another concerted push to get on the MRAP wagon ('scuse the pun!) with a development of Bushies with higher roof, side doors for Driver & Commander, etc.........reported at the AUSA Winter symposium last week. Unless they can attain some value-added to the programme with a big Overseas contract don't hold your breath for ANY Copperheads.

What THALES should have done a year or two ago is push hard for 6x6, Copperhead and MRAP-focussed versions. The basic design is excellent so derivatives is, or should have been, relatively easy if the money had been spent at that time. The few Million necessary to achieve this shouldn't have been beyond Thales ability to support especially as they could have had European potentials to explore, e.g. Joint Ventures in various countries.

The whole Bushmaster programme has been under-developed and under-funded by the Manufacturer as far as realising the potential is concerned.

All in my personal opinion of course............

Regards,

BUG

 

[jacktar]

How about a parakeet system for the bushmaster, you could and I do mean could mount a large caliber mortar or small caliber artillery piece such as a system like the ceaser artillery system used by the French, the list is endless and yes i do hope to see them after the election on the off chance it actually happens

Recoil becomes an issue with wheeled vehicles mounting any larger caliber guns or mortars. To overcome this would require considerable redesign of the basic chassis.

From what I've been told, even with the specialised designs applied to the Caesar system, it is still a problem and that Caesar can't take a full charge round.

There was however a Copperhead at the 2006 LWC that had a Skyshield radar sensor mounted on it. The Idea is that the Radar goes on one unit and the GBAD gun travels on a second. These are dismounted from the vehicles/trailers and a 3rd module carries the CP.

 

[lobbie111]

I see what your getting at but I'm saying not the full 155mm but put one of the American Dragon Fire II systems (knowing my knowledge is probably canceled) on it which can be either mounted or dismounted for shoot and scoot and shoot on the move capabilities

 

[jacktar]

Talking about "IF's".......

Copperhead could carry a rear-mounted M-777 155mm Howitzer for example BUT then again so could FMTV as they offered a Portee version ala the Supacat 800 version offered by BAE for LIMAWS(G) - now terminated at least for the next 2-3 years.

There is an argument that says we should procure Portee's rather than traditional gun tractors for our new M-777's if Australia finally decides to procure such, NOT a guaranteed buy. All depends on what they decide to do with reagrds to Towed versus Tracked versus Wheeled 155mm howitzers.

Supacat already offers a Portee version and BAE (as "owner" of the Portee version) has a strong presence here but they also own FMTV's manufacturer so could easily offer that. Copperhead would remain on the Outer even in these potential discussions.

Oshkosh and Thales appear to make another concerted push to get on the MRAP wagon ('scuse the pun!) with a development of Bushies with higher roof, side doors for Driver & Commander, etc.........reported at the AUSA Winter symposium last week. Unless they can attain some value-added to the programme with a big Overseas contract don't hold your breath for ANY Copperheads.

What THALES should have done a year or two ago is push hard for 6x6, Copperhead and MRAP-focussed versions. The basic design is excellent so derivatives is, or should have been, relatively easy if the money had been spent at that time. The few Million necessary to achieve this shouldn't have been beyond Thales ability to support especially as they could have had European potentials to explore, e.g. Joint Ventures in various countries.

The whole Bushmaster programme has been under-developed and under-funded by the Manufacturer as far as realising the potential is concerned.

All in my personal opinion of course............

Regards,

BUG

The Oshkosh Truck Corporation website has a brochure for the Bushmaster you can download. It claims that it is available as a 6 x 6. Interesting that you say they announced a redesign of the cabin entry. I hope it is not based on the Copperhead design can be a challenge climbing into an out those.

 

[lobbie111]

Thats just the Thales brochure only with the colours changed

 

[jacktar]

I see what your getting at but I'm saying not the full 155mm but put one of the American Dragon Fire II systems (knowing my knowledge is probably canceled) on it which can be either mounted or dismounted for shoot and scoot and shoot on the move capabilities

Denel did put a G5 gun on the back of a Tatra truck which was a full 155mm system, called a Condor. But I don't know how successful it was, from the pictures I saw, it had huge outriggers in an attempt to stabilise the platform and apparently major reinforcing to the chassis. The South Africans I spoke to referred to it as a GOAT, Gun On A Truck.

Shooting on the move presents a whole set of different problems.

 

[jacktar]

Thats just the Thales brochure only with the colours changed

There are subtle differences if you look closely, the 3126E engine has been replaced with a C7, the rear axle is no longer Arvin Meritor, but has been replaced by an independent coil arrangement based on the TAC4 system used on Marine Corps MTVRs and a couple of other changes to suit US conditions.

 

[lobbie111]

Didn't they pull the bushmaster offer out of the US vehicle competition, why would they still offer it with Americanized parts?

 

[gf0012-aust]

why would they still offer it with Americanized parts?

because if you want to sell in the US Market you need to meet the market expectations and make the bid attractive. Its also why you have a US Partner, to start forestalling local content issues as well as meet State Dept provisions re foreign sourced equipment.

They're attempting to fit into the market opportunity.

 

[jacktar]

Didn't they pull the bushmaster offer out of the US vehicle competition, why would they still offer it with Americanized parts?

Don't know if it was a case of being pulled. My understanding was that it just didn't win. Thales and OTC are still chasing the MRAP 2 requirements, which was why the vehicle was at AUSA.

 

[lobbie111]

Why can't Australia build and market it it would be so good if Australia could get a manufacturing base off the ground save us sending all our raw materials to china and them coming back as commercial products, and besides its not like the Americans are going to care then, I mean look at the Abrams cannon they just slapped another sticker on it.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Why can't Australia build and market it it would be so good if Australia could get a manufacturing base off the ground save us sending all our raw materials to china and them coming back as commercial products,

Its already built and merketed - the issue is one of effectiveness. In addition why would any sane company get their tech made in china? there are lessons everywhere on tech that's been compromised. DFAT already have provisions within technologies that restrict those items being made in china as we know that they will be compromised.

and besides its not like the Americans are going to care then, I mean look at the Abrams cannon they just slapped another sticker on it.

err, no. they license build them. they legitimately own the license to manufacture.

 

[lobbie111]

no but they didn't modify it with americanized parts to comply with state department standards they just got the contract and called it a different name, thats what i was referring to.

 

[gf0012-aust]

no but they didn't modify it with americanized parts to comply with state department standards they just got the contract and called it a different name, thats what i was referring to.

I think you'll find that the Oshkosh offer is a slightly different beast. Bushmaster is not a baseline holden commodore rebadged as a toyota lexcen, its config is offered to fit the market.

- and they do have to comply with State Dept requirements. Everyone does. Its either that or go home....

 

[lobbie111]

Oh i see, I was thinking that they just replaced the parts with similar specification parts made in USA that explains it, i see your point now. Surprised they didn't give it a stupid name like thunder or lightning hahaha