sidewinder2006
New Member
According to a news article i read few days ago...Russians had asked for Uss 3billion as india's contribution to that project.
So its obvious that when somebody invests that much money,his requirements must be fullfilled !
The Indian Tejas
- Thread starter Jade
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So its obvious that when somebody invests that much money,his requirements must be fullfilled !
specifically on the topic, the HAL's lca project is really a serious effort towards producing a indigenously developed combat aircraft, and must be supported with greater resources both human and financial, all the failures that occur should be taken as lessons learned towards creating in the next 30 to 40 years an domestic combat aircraft industry.
Considering the envisioned Fighters , Ground Attack and Bombers Squadrons which sum up to about- 40 and 1000-1500 combat aircrafts, the investment that will go into the developmental phase of a young evolving sector(like the investment going into HAL's Tejas and MCA program) will eventually justify itself, the government should aim for indigenous development.
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But the problem is that by the time the Tejas actually enters into service with the IAF, it is likely to be outdated already. After so many decades of development and so much investment, we are only getting what could at best be described as a basic fighter aircraft. To me, it is a waste of money.
The tejas was desigined to replace India's Mig -21 BISONS.But, hten the MRCA happened and i wonder where the tejas would fit now in the indian air force.
********************.But India has got access to more lethal weapons to match its ambitions.
Mod: Read the rules. No this vs that & especially not the JF-17 vs LCA discussion is allowed. From your post it already shows you have no technical knowledge of either project hence no point of you talking about (do some research on google & read the old threads & posts on both projects).
-SABRE
********************.But India has got access to more lethal weapons to match its ambitions.
Mod: Read the rules. No this vs that & especially not the JF-17 vs LCA discussion is allowed. From your post it already shows you have no technical knowledge of either project hence no point of you talking about (do some research on google & read the old threads & posts on both projects).
-SABRE
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Don't you think the TEjas first learn to stand, then walk and then perhaps run before running for the money and kicking perhaps also rafale, typhone F-35 of the world :nutkick ?
Anyway Welcome!!!
hey guys,great news here ,the lca has been successfully test flown with 2 800 litre underwing drop tanks.
here check out this link and article:
http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articl...&news=Tejas prototype makes successful flight
Tejas prototype makes successful flight Bangalore, Sept 07: Tejas Prototype Vehicle (PV-1) made a successful maiden flight with two 800 litre drop tanks slung under the wings of the Light Combat Aircraft(LCA) here today.
The flight is significant on several counts, an official press release said.This is the first time Tejas carried any stores other than the air-to-air missiles which are part of its operational configuration.
The flight also proved the functionalities of the on-board stores management system (SMS) as well as the Control Law (CLAW) of the integrated digital fly-by-wire control system in the "heavy stores" mode.
Accordingly, today's flight achieved a significant milestone for the programme, taking it closer to operational clearance for induction into service, it said.
Tejas PV1 was flown by the national flight test centre test pilot, Wg Cdr N Tiwari and the test director for the flight was Wg Cdr M Prabhu.
A Jaguar trainer aircraft of ASTE Air Force flown by Wg Cdr R R Tyagi and Sqn Ldr Sangwan was used as chase for this flight,the release said.
The flight lasted about 45 minutes during which the mobile telemetry developed by the national flight test centre for outstation flight trials was also checked out.
here check out this link and article:
http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articl...&news=Tejas prototype makes successful flight
Tejas prototype makes successful flight Bangalore, Sept 07: Tejas Prototype Vehicle (PV-1) made a successful maiden flight with two 800 litre drop tanks slung under the wings of the Light Combat Aircraft(LCA) here today.
The flight is significant on several counts, an official press release said.This is the first time Tejas carried any stores other than the air-to-air missiles which are part of its operational configuration.
The flight also proved the functionalities of the on-board stores management system (SMS) as well as the Control Law (CLAW) of the integrated digital fly-by-wire control system in the "heavy stores" mode.
Accordingly, today's flight achieved a significant milestone for the programme, taking it closer to operational clearance for induction into service, it said.
Tejas PV1 was flown by the national flight test centre test pilot, Wg Cdr N Tiwari and the test director for the flight was Wg Cdr M Prabhu.
A Jaguar trainer aircraft of ASTE Air Force flown by Wg Cdr R R Tyagi and Sqn Ldr Sangwan was used as chase for this flight,the release said.
The flight lasted about 45 minutes during which the mobile telemetry developed by the national flight test centre for outstation flight trials was also checked out.
Going through the thread found very little love for the HAL Tejas LCA.
All of the major projects like the Euro Fighter and Rafael started up at the same time, they are only just starting the service.
Tejas will never be an Air superiority combat jet, it was never meant to be.
It’s only after the BrahMos deal that we have seen the advantages of a combined project.
Elta systems came to Aero India Bangalore with EL 2052 ASEA radar.
LCA configuration
-Empty weight: 5,500 kg, Loaded weight: 8,500 kg, Max takeoff weight: >12,500 kg
-Powerplant::
1× General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan, 83.2 kN (18,700 lbf): The f 404 engine has served well on the Gripen, F-117A,T/A-50 , A-D F/A-18 Hornet.
In Feb 07 HAL ordered 24 F404-GE-IN20 afterburning engines in order to power the first operational squadron of Tejas.
Furthermore this might be a better engine for potential exports than a Russian one
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ge-receives-100m-order-for-tejas-fighter-engines-03044
1× GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri turbofan, 89.9 kN (20,000 lbf): External help has been invited (RFP) and response has been good
Performance
-Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 at high altitude Mach 1 at all altitudes.
-Range: 2,000 km/2.30 hr (with internal fuel)
-Service ceiling: 15,950 m (50,000 ft)
-Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m² (45.35 lb/ft²)
-Thrust/weight: 1.07
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas
With the addition of the following components Tejas can become quite handy
- An upgraded EL 2032/52 fire control radar done as a collaboration between India and Israel.
- Litening Laser Designation FLIR Pod.
- Indian/Israeli EW pod.
- 1 × 23 mm GSh-23 cannon.
- Air-to-air missiles: R77 BVR,Derby (alto) BVR/Python 4-5 WVR. With an imported Helmet Mounted Display System for example the Elbit Systems.
- A combined development of next generation "Astra" BVRAAM with Israeli partners, possibly a WVR missile.
As for the airframe it has undergone a lot of tests and flights, the problems which were/are found were fixed and will be fixed, that is how a Sophisticated combat aircraft comes into being.
However Tejas LCA is not a SU 30 or SU 35 and even if it becomes an India specific platform with off the shelf - GE engine, Elta system radar, and Israeli AAM's(which will see it on the production line by 2009), it is still fulfilling all the roles IAF will use it for and that is all that matters.
All of the major projects like the Euro Fighter and Rafael started up at the same time, they are only just starting the service.
Tejas will never be an Air superiority combat jet, it was never meant to be.
It’s only after the BrahMos deal that we have seen the advantages of a combined project.
Elta systems came to Aero India Bangalore with EL 2052 ASEA radar.
LCA configuration
-Empty weight: 5,500 kg, Loaded weight: 8,500 kg, Max takeoff weight: >12,500 kg
-Powerplant::
1× General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan, 83.2 kN (18,700 lbf): The f 404 engine has served well on the Gripen, F-117A,T/A-50 , A-D F/A-18 Hornet.
In Feb 07 HAL ordered 24 F404-GE-IN20 afterburning engines in order to power the first operational squadron of Tejas.
Furthermore this might be a better engine for potential exports than a Russian one
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...010-but-foreign-help-sought-with-engine-01901
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ge-receives-100m-order-for-tejas-fighter-engines-03044
1× GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri turbofan, 89.9 kN (20,000 lbf): External help has been invited (RFP) and response has been good
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...010-but-foreign-help-sought-with-engine-01901
Performance
-Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 at high altitude Mach 1 at all altitudes.
-Range: 2,000 km/2.30 hr (with internal fuel)
-Service ceiling: 15,950 m (50,000 ft)
-Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m² (45.35 lb/ft²)
-Thrust/weight: 1.07
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas
With the addition of the following components Tejas can become quite handy
- An upgraded EL 2032/52 fire control radar done as a collaboration between India and Israel.
- Litening Laser Designation FLIR Pod.
- Indian/Israeli EW pod.
- 1 × 23 mm GSh-23 cannon.
- Air-to-air missiles: R77 BVR,Derby (alto) BVR/Python 4-5 WVR. With an imported Helmet Mounted Display System for example the Elbit Systems.
- A combined development of next generation "Astra" BVRAAM with Israeli partners, possibly a WVR missile.
As for the airframe it has undergone a lot of tests and flights, the problems which were/are found were fixed and will be fixed, that is how a Sophisticated combat aircraft comes into being.
However Tejas LCA is not a SU 30 or SU 35 and even if it becomes an India specific platform with off the shelf - GE engine, Elta system radar, and Israeli AAM's(which will see it on the production line by 2009), it is still fulfilling all the roles IAF will use it for and that is all that matters.
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Why do yu bother if somone loves or hate Tejas? as you have so much love for it !!!.
Good summary you have on LCA, no doubt LCA would be very good and matches all the design parametrs set out, but most of the critical component being imported--- negating all the reason for building your own jet.
This still would have been great, had it come in early 2000 around Su 30 induction time.
Good summary you have on LCA, no doubt LCA would be very good and matches all the design parametrs set out, but most of the critical component being imported--- negating all the reason for building your own jet.
This still would have been great, had it come in early 2000 around Su 30 induction time.
Just what they call a slang man, Tejas isn’t the bird I’m after.
It would have been even better if we would have had it in the 90's, however Indian economy was going under, it was only after the reforms that our foreign currency reserves permitted us to spend money on defense equipment.
I was born around the same time the project was initiated.
The project was to have a jet that would be really cheap(only way to do that is internal production) and jet fielded in massive numbers, Defense export part came into the media in 97-2000, however it will be very important to bring down the cost of the project.
Indian defense industry has seen a major change in the last decade, through a project like BrahMos the advantages of joint production were realized and carried forward to the long range BARAK naval SAM (India and Israel contributing 400-450 million $), MR-SAM (land based - Again India and Israel contributing 2.5 billion $), multi-role IL-214 aircraft ($ 300 million joint development).
India has also learned about an almost-legal way of acquiring defense technology the prime example being, Green pine radar from Israel where the arrow missile.
As a result India currently has defense agreements signed with Russia, Israel, and the USA which specifically state “an active involvement in combined development and production of weapon systems”.
The best part about joint production like the “Eurofighter” is that resources of two or more nations are involved in designing, manufacturing and marketing the products, the problem part is that all the nations involved might have some nations they might not prefer to sell the weapon to.
This is of special interest to HAL Tejas, as the very problems that chased the project were.
- A relatively inexperienced team (radar, engine, missiles).
- Lack of funds (India is not in the worlds developed nations list).
- Arms and related technology embargo, especially from the USA (the 10 year defense cooperation deal will ease things a lot).
- Internal bickering between Aeronautical Development Agency, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, and the Indian Air Force.
Now all of these problems have been solved and the latest quoted figure by HAL is 450 million dollars for 20 Tejas LCA which will put it at 22.5 million a piece, not that bad however it might be a step to get the air force interested, the defense organizations and Indian military seem to be on different page.
However even HAL has shown something, going ahead with a project and improving it as you go along, instead of investing long amount of time in updating project parameters, this experience will be invaluable in designing a similar 5th generation MCA, when ever it starts.
The same problem still there from Marut:
-No radar
-NO Engine
-No Missile
-If funds could produce the result, th gulf will be producing like Eurocanards
-If you set out to produce plane "Indegeniosly", then embargo is hardly a matter!
I will not type this again.
-Marut was 1960's, you should consider that people were a lot more sensitive about transfer of engines as they saw this cutting sales of their platforms. Till the 1980's even the Russian exported aircrafts with downgraded technology. anyways i don't think a radar was ever developed for Marut, that was not the plan, neither was the engine to be developed in India, the problem was later in the program no one was ready to sell an advanced to date engine.
-That is why the policy of joint production has been issued in HAL tejas, BARAK, MR-SAM, Kaveri engine etc. etc. to get all the technological input and transfer with a license to manufacture parts.
-Even a nation like china has to import radars and engines for a project like when better quality stuff is not available, that is the best way to do it, if you can get a joint production agreement even better.
- Embargo that India faced stopped everything from high tech machining tools, processors, and any other technical instrument supply to all organizations that were perceived to be involved in the nuclear project most of them were also involved in HAL tejas.
- India has only worked on two generations of fighter aircraft, the first Marut was mostly due to a German engineer(read it up on wikipedia).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Tank
- Funds are important and so is a requirement, Gulf states do not have a requirement of 250 - 300 aircrafts to justify R&D costs. they can utilize there resources in other fields.
- at 22.5 million a piece it still fulfills the primary goal, fitting the budget.
-by your reasoning i suppose
JAS 39 Gripen
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/types/sweden/saab/jas_39/gripen.htm
JF 17
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/fc-1/fc-1_specs.htm
do not seem Indigenous projects to you.
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Gripenator
Banned Member
It all depends on your TRADOC (training & doctrine).
If you subscribe to the belief that AAM quality rather than aircraft performance will decide the future of air combat then the Tejas is a resounding success. By this logic, a 3rd Gen fighter, say a F-5, if cued with 2x AIM-120C and AWACS/EW support would be as effective an air superiority fighter as a Su-27SK as the actual airframe is cheap and the excellent Probality of Kill of the AIM-120 makes evasion by the Su-27 difficult. I do not believe standard PLAAF or PAF doctrine is to fight in finger four formations but rather, as I have observed, fly in 16 ship formations (at least J-7 and J-11 anyway) making a great target.
Mass produce about 400-600 Tejas with economies of scale ($10million/aircaft?=), strap a relatively inexpensive PESA (to save costs) radar onto each airframe and sling 4x Derby/Python 4 AAMs or AA-12s underneath with a datalink cued to nearby Il-76 Phalcon AWACs and fire away at any approaching PAF or PLAAF 4th Gen Fighters (as all have a significant and large RCS rendering them incapable of signature reduction vs a modern AESA radar).
If you subscribe to the belief that AAM quality rather than aircraft performance will decide the future of air combat then the Tejas is a resounding success. By this logic, a 3rd Gen fighter, say a F-5, if cued with 2x AIM-120C and AWACS/EW support would be as effective an air superiority fighter as a Su-27SK as the actual airframe is cheap and the excellent Probality of Kill of the AIM-120 makes evasion by the Su-27 difficult. I do not believe standard PLAAF or PAF doctrine is to fight in finger four formations but rather, as I have observed, fly in 16 ship formations (at least J-7 and J-11 anyway) making a great target.
Mass produce about 400-600 Tejas with economies of scale ($10million/aircaft?=), strap a relatively inexpensive PESA (to save costs) radar onto each airframe and sling 4x Derby/Python 4 AAMs or AA-12s underneath with a datalink cued to nearby Il-76 Phalcon AWACs and fire away at any approaching PAF or PLAAF 4th Gen Fighters (as all have a significant and large RCS rendering them incapable of signature reduction vs a modern AESA radar).
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
In essence i agree with you. In a netowked environment the radar and overall capabilities of an individual fighter become less relevent. Thats why i think F16 block 30's can be very usefull in the air superiority role well into the next centurey.
However there is one vital point your mmissing. Electronic warfare. If the enemy has asignificant EW capability and degrades your radars performance or disruptes your datalinks, you will be forced to fight on a more one on one basis ( or squadron v squadron). Annother unkown is the effect of counter ISR weapons such as the R37, and whether they will be able to effect the spesific scenario by either shooting down the AEW&C platform or force it to shut down. In that case the performance of the individual fighter will be vital, and Tejas probably wouldnt stand a chance agains J10's/J11B's.
I am in agreement with you that as AWACS and AAM get morer sophisticated, there is little relevence of the capability of fighter. Here the small light aircraft may be dark horse when every other aircraft is bocoming big bird.
Gripenator
Banned Member
Thank you for pointing that out Ozzy Blizzard,
Which is why the USAF has begun to introduce the F-22 and F-35II, both which can function as a 'mini-AWACS' by streaming data to one another, with minimal electronic emissions, each F-22 acting as a 'lone wolf' in using its superior speed, minimal radar signature and altitude to down 'teen series' J-11and J-10 'bogies' before they even know what's hit them. PLAAF AWACS are useless against F-22s as they can only "see" the F-22 in the very best of circumstances and NOT track and lock on the F-22 for a firing solution by accompanying J-11, J-10 etc.
Thats the USAF "Applied Stealth" approach. The rest of the world are developing new approaches, I know ROKAF and JASDF are following the US's path while the Euro air forces are banking on the Meteor BVRAAM to attempt to down enemy bogies before they can possibly threaten the AWACS. In India's case, they probably possess the R-37 (Su-30MKI) so I don't see a problem unless the PLAAF has R-37s integrated on J-11/Su-27 as well. The PAF has a major problem with their Erieye AWACS given the short range of the 350-450km radar depending on clutter as well as the slow speed (600km/h) vs Mach 6 of the R-37 and 300km range
. The R-37 'Anti-AWACS' / AA-X-13 Arrow is indeed a major concern, although:
a) It is only cued for the Mig-31 (at least from open sources anyway)
b) Russians have a propensity to over exaggerate the capabilities of their weapons and we will never know for sure until it actually has been tested in combat.
Nevertheless it is not to be underestimated and in my country Gripens are designed to have short t/o and landing ranges as well as relying on GCI and Erieye AWACS cued with Meteor BVRAAMs (from 2010-) to offset any Russian air 'superiority'.
I would like to further ask you a question Ozzy,
say for example TNI-AF Su-27SK/Su-30MK2s recently bought from Russia recieve the R-37, how is that going to have an impact on your F-35 and
F-18A CAP and strikes on Indonesian territory (hypothetical conflict) when they can supposedly 'shut down' your accompanying Wedgetail AWACS possibly negating the RAAF EW advantage. Dr Kopp says that the Su- family are superior to both the F-35 and F-18A HUG in A2A, his research looks convincing but what do other Australian defense experts say?
Gripenator
Banned Member
I suppose if we follow your logic then we will all be taking to the air in hang gliders and launching AAMs at each other
nfloorl: Please verify your sources and your knowledge of combat aircraft before posting weird statements.
Moderator Hat on:
Kindly stay on topic on this thread, which is "The Indian Tejas". Discussion of other interesting topics, like the possible performance of RAAF F/A-18F Super Hornet or F-35A Lightning II aircraft has been done in other threads. Such threads can be found below.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6089
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6541
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4973
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5982
These links should offer a fairly good coverage of the discussion already had about those aircraft.
For those interested in getting into a discussion about overall importance (or lack thereof) of individual aircraft performance when part of an air combat system including such elements as AEW, datalinks, BVR missile cueing, by all means do so. But please do it in a different thread, since such a discussion would not revolve around the Tejas and would be tangential to the topic of this thread.
-Preceptor
Kindly stay on topic on this thread, which is "The Indian Tejas". Discussion of other interesting topics, like the possible performance of RAAF F/A-18F Super Hornet or F-35A Lightning II aircraft has been done in other threads. Such threads can be found below.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6089
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6541
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4973
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5982
These links should offer a fairly good coverage of the discussion already had about those aircraft.
For those interested in getting into a discussion about overall importance (or lack thereof) of individual aircraft performance when part of an air combat system including such elements as AEW, datalinks, BVR missile cueing, by all means do so. But please do it in a different thread, since such a discussion would not revolve around the Tejas and would be tangential to the topic of this thread.
-Preceptor
and still the marut took part in the bombing of pakistan in the 1972 war ,and served indian airforce for close to 15 years ,172 maruts were built for the indian air force.
All these years i was under the impression that the war took place in 1971
. kindly share your sources for the claims that you made.- Status