The Indian Tejas

[kams]

LCA-Tejas is again going to the drawing board, so expect to see only after 15 years or so according to this report.
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Lets take a look at some facts before we jump with joy, shall we?

1. Which two Tejas flew in Arakkonam? - PV-2 and PV-3

2. Which version of GE404 engine is installed in these two? - F2J3.

3. Which version of GE engine will be installed in all LSP (limited Series Production)? - GE404 IN20.

4. GE404IN20 has higher thrust than F2J3.

5. What was the purpose of Arakkonam test flights - To test the aircraft and subsystems under high humidity and high temperatire condition.

With the indigenous Kaveri engine not to be ready till at least 2014, the LCA will shortly get a more powerful power plant. HAL has started integrating the first of the General Electric manufactured GE 404 IN20 engines. The LSP2 will be the first to be powered with the new engine.

Now think about what will more powerfull IN20 version will do?

Coming to GE414 story, apparently just before Arakkonam tests, GE made a presentation to ADA on integrating GE414 to LCA.

Now you know..

 

[Ryttare]

Informed sources attribute this to insufficient installed thrust from the power plant after its integration with the air frame. Engineers working with the programme say modifications including to the aircraft’s air intakes will have to be made or a new engine installed. Both solutions will be time-consuming:nutkick

If the problem would be that installed thrust is lower than expected, a stronger engine probably wont help, it might even make it worse. If the air flow prevents the engine from reaching desired thrust air intakes has to be redesigned.

It would be logical as the plane isn't meant to use that engine from the beginning. I think they have to decide wether they belive Kaveri will work in time or not. Designing Tejas for two different engines seems very difficult.

 

[wp2000]

It's good to share and discuss these technical issues. But no need to maginify these issues and jump to any conclusion about the whole project.

During the test phase, there will be lots of problems found. That's normal. The important thing is how these problems are handled and how long and how much do they spend. Only the accumulated failures of handling problems will stall a project and may lead to cancellation.

So, if anyone generally agrees with my ananlysis, we can then go into more detailed level of the current test phase, and later on we may be able to see how significant these technical issues are comparing the whole test process.

 

[crobato]

Modifying the intake, and subsequently, the intake tunnel and part of the airframe can delay but it can be done an it can be done fast enough so the delay can be momentarily, not one that you can consider a serious delay. And there is a precedent for that. I like to remind you, that in fact, that one certain fighter, whose name I won't mention to avoid plane vs. plane comparisons, had similar problems with its installed thrust, and in a matter of less than a year, the plane changed from side splitter intakes to fixed DSI inlets in the next prototype, along with aerodynamic and airframe changes.

So in view of the precedents it can be done if you put your money and mind to it promptly.

 

[Ryttare]

Yes, I belive it's possible to redesign the intakes pretty quick, as soon as engine has been finally chosen. Indian engineers seems as quite innovative, it's really impressive they have been able to get this far considering they have made it really difficult for themselfs. The problem seems to be on the political and management leadership level. But soon some decision has to be made on that level to make the project able to carry on. Such as what engine to use, usage of composites and radar.

But one way of solving this specific problem would be to just let it be. India will have many other fighters in their inventory that can carry out low level work.

 

[crobato]

In my opinion its better to solve the problem in the bud rather than to have it hang on and haunt you later in the long run.

Sometimes it is said that the bureaucracy presents a more daunting problem than the engineering solution itself. It maybe, that the time spent debating and getting through the byzantine channels to get the authorization can cost more time than designing and implementing the new changes. I don't see the redesign as the problem, I see getting the "okay" for it as the problem.

 

[wp2000]

Yes, very true.

LCA does not involve any ground breaking technology, given India's position, any technical issue can be solved by at least one way, either locally or foreign.

That's why I think project management is the main source of problems in LCA.

But recently, signs of improvment is showing up, but not good enough to make any conclusions.

I mean even the new targets revealed by AFM's April issue are forgotten. There must be a new set of exciting goals released recently that I am not aware of. This gives me the impression that the management are still not down to the earth: know your men and resources then come up with an achievable goal first, evneif that goal looks disappointing; Gradually you will be closer and closer to what IAF wants.

 

[aaaditya]

Modifying the intake, and subsequently, the intake tunnel and part of the airframe can delay but it can be done an it can be done fast enough so the delay can be momentarily, not one that you can consider a serious delay. And there is a precedent for that. I like to remind you, that in fact, that one certain fighter, whose name I won't mention to avoid plane vs. plane comparisons, had similar problems with its installed thrust, and in a matter of less than a year, the plane changed from side splitter intakes to fixed DSI inlets in the next prototype, along with aerodynamic and airframe changes.

So in view of the precedents it can be done if you put your money and mind to it promptly.

i believe the aircraft which you are referring to also had problems regarding smoke from the exhaust ,which was rectified by the use of a modified design of air intake.

 

[Titanium]

Modifying the intake, and subsequently, the intake tunnel and part of the airframe can delay but it can be done an it can be done fast enough so the delay can be momentarily, not one that you can consider a serious delay. And there is a precedent for that.
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So in view of the precedents it can be done if you put your money and mind to it promptly.

Yes corbato you are right it can be done and there are previuos precedent of it. Now, the question is who is gonna do it? the design is frozen in consultation with Dassault and BAe.. any changes at this point again needs consultation and all the flight test data again computed- looking at the past history it is not reassuring this can be done in a year or two. so the precedent you mentioned can not resonably applied here.

LCA does not involve any ground breaking technology, given India's position, any technical issue can be solved by at least one way, either locally or foreign.

Am afraid not many will agree to you as LCA has many first to its credit compound delta, "40% composite by weight and 90% by surface area, FBW "Indeginous etc.. to name a few.

If the problem would be that installed thrust is lower than expected, a stronger engine probably wont help, it might even make it worse. If the air flow prevents the engine from reaching desired thrust air intakes has to be redesigned

Honestly don't you people think, the engine is more than enough for such a light plane? The issue here is that of poor design, either it is airintake or most probably I assume it is the excessive drag, from poor aerodynamic design.

 

[Ryttare]

Honestly don't you people think, the engine is more than enough for such a light plane? The issue here is that of poor design, either it is airintake or most probably I assume it is the excessive drag, from poor aerodynamic design.

The uninstalled thrust of the engine is probably enough to get decent performance. The article speaks about the installed thrust being to low, and that implies problems with the things like the air intakes. Tejas is a delta and deltas has inheratly low drag.

As I said before, the present engine was introduced as a temporary solution and it's not strange if that would cause some problems. If they decide to make it a more long term solution it would probably not be an overwhelming job to redesign the intakes. What is needed is a decision from politicians and project management.

 

[kams]

The air intake was redesigned once in 2001. TD-2 has redesigned air intakes as compared to TD-1.

There has been continuous improvement from TD-1 (technology demonstrator) to PV-2. Avionics, Cockpit instrumentation, Air frame composition, total number of parts (almost 30% reduction), weight reduction (5%) etc. I will posr bit more on these changes later.

wp2000, my complements on good compilation. Will try to post some comments later. Some points to consider,
- FBW program was most hard hit by US sanctions, with almost all of Indian made equipment at LM seized. With no test beds at home, a task force was constituted to crack this critical technology.
- TD-1 after roll out in 96, flew only in 2001. Mainly due to FBW and also due to problem in Composites, fuselage-wing integration (which had to be done more than once). After some flights (till Sep-Oct 2001), it was grounded to make extensive modifications to fuel system, Cockpit instrumentation, Airframe (leading edge slats, Air brakes) etc. There was big delay in this phase. The delay was due to HAL getting involved with IJT (bad project management).
- More LSP series are supposed to be flying now, including Trainer version. These are to be ingetrated with newer 404 IN20 engines.

 

[Jade]

The air intake was redesigned once in 2001. TD-2 has redesigned air intakes as compared to TD-1.

There has been continuous improvement from TD-1 (technology demonstrator) to PV-2. Avionics, Cockpit instrumentation, Air frame composition, total number of parts (almost 30% reduction), weight reduction (5%) etc. I will posr bit more on these changes later.

wp2000, my complements on good compilation. Will try to post some comments later. Some points to consider,
- FBW program was most hard hit by US sanctions, with almost all of Indian made equipment at LM seized. With no test beds at home, a task force was constituted to crack this critical technology.
- TD-1 after roll out in 96, flew only in 2001. Mainly due to FBW and also due to problem in Composites, fuselage-wing integration (which had to be done more than once). After some flights (till Sep-Oct 2001), it was grounded to make extensive modifications to fuel system, Cockpit instrumentation, Airframe (leading edge slats, Air brakes) etc. There was big delay in this phase. The delay was due to HAL getting involved with IJT (bad project management).
- More LSP series are supposed to be flying now, including Trainer version. These are to be ingetrated with newer 404 IN20 engines.

Kams, would you mind if we also discussed the next gen Indian combat aircrat here?

Have they picked the Russians as partners for this ?

What is the design like ?

Sometimes, they say yes and then they say yet to decide !!!!

What's your knowledge of this ?

Mod: I would suggest sticking to the topic, which is "LCA Tejas." If you want to discuss MCA than there should be an old thread some where around here. Find that thread & discuss it there, if it is no there than make one.

 

[aaaditya]

Kams, would you mind if we also discussed the next gen Indian combat aircrat here?

Have they picked the Russians as partners for this ?

What is the design like ?

Sometimes, they say yes and then they say yet to decide !!!!

What's your knowledge of this ?

india is inetersted in the joint development with the russians of a fifth generation multirole combat aircraft ,they also have an indigenous project known as the mca,which is meant to utilise the lca design and technology and will incorporate a high degree of stealth and super cruise capability,the project design and the preliminary design stage of the project is completed ,the launch of this project is expected to be in 2010.

 

[Titanium]

india is inetersted in the joint development with the russians of a fifth generation multirole combat aircraft ,they also have an indigenous project known as the mca,which is meant to utilise the lca design and technology and will incorporate a high degree of stealth and super cruise capability,the project design and the preliminary design stage of the project is completed ,the launch of this project is expected to be in 2010.

What? Technology I can understand, they will utiliaze the same LCA design for MCA? Great to know supercruise has been incorporated in the design stage itself, I hope kaveri live upto it.

 

[sidewinder2006]

What? Technology I can understand, they will utiliaze the same LCA design for MCA? Great to know supercruise has been incorporated in the design stage itself, I hope kaveri live upto it.

Design doesn't necessarily means the airframe design itself but it can also indicate various subsystems that go with it

 

[Jade]

india is inetersted in the joint development with the russians of a fifth generation multirole combat aircraft ,they also have an indigenous project known as the mca,which is meant to utilise the lca design and technology and will incorporate a high degree of stealth and super cruise capability,the project design and the preliminary design stage of the project is completed ,the launch of this project is expected to be in 2010.

You mean India has 2 combat aircraft's on the drawing board ?????

 

[aaaditya]

You mean India has 2 combat aircraft's on the drawing board ?????

india has only one aircraft(mca) on the drawing board ,the other one is the the russian,for which the indian airforce is finalising its specifications.

 

[aaaditya]

here is an article ,from the flight internation magazine,which confirms the failure of the lca to meet the low altitude thrust requirements,the failure is attributed to the low thrust generated by the current ge-404 engine,if true ,then the the replacement of this engine with the more powerfull ge-404-in20 engines in the ioc batch will rectify this drawback without having to go for an inlet design change.

this article also mentions a joint development of the radar for lca by india's hal and elbit of israel,the radar is expected to be based on the israeli elta el-m-2052 active electronically scanned radar.

 

[aaaditya]

sorry forgot to post the article and link in the previous post.

here is the link and the article:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/08/20/216136/indias-tejas-fighter-suffers-new-setback.html

India's Tejas light combat aircraft programme has suffered a new setback, with sea-level fight tests using two prototype aircraft having demonstrated lower than expected engine performance during take-off and maximum speed demonstrations.
But in a fresh move intended to steady the troubled programme, New Delhi in mid-August announced a co-operative agreement under which its defence industry will develop the aircraft's multi-mode radar with Israel Aerospace Industries' Elta Systems subsidiary.
Conducted from Arakkonam in India's southern Tamil Nadu state and intended to demonstrate the Aeronautical Development Agency aircraft's performance under dense atmospheric conditions, the recent series of 24 flights revealed that the Tejas was unable to reach its expected maximum speed of Mach 1.05, despite having reached M1.6 at high altitude.
The failure has been attributed to insufficient available thrust from the aircraft's General Electric F404 engine, and underlines India's need to replace the US design with the Kaveri powerplant now under development by its Gas Turbine Research Establishment. In common with the wider Tejas programme, the Kaveri project has been dogged by development delays and cost escalations, which have forced New Delhi to order additional F404s to power its initial production batch of lightweight fighters.
Prototype and demonstrator examples of the Tejas have now flown 725 flights, and the type is due to achieve initial operational capability in late 2010.
Announcing the new radar pact, defence minister A K Antony said India's parliament has approved the co-development agreement with Elta, with Hindustan Aeronautics selected to lead the project. The initiative will replace previous work conducted by the Bangalore-based Electronics and Radar Development Establishment, with technical hitches having prevented a radar design from being integrated with a prototype Tejas.
Antony says the new fire-control radar is needed to support demonstration flights of the fully developed and armed fighter from 2010, and Israeli sources reveal that the sensor will be a further development of Elta's EL/M-2052 active electronically scanned array.
The company is completing development of the design using IAI's Boeing 737 flying testbed, and an undisclosed air force recently placed a $95 million contract to acquire the system. Elta says the AESA design can detect up to 64 targets simultaneously, while it can also provide ground mapping services and be used against maritime threats.

 

[Jade]

india has only one aircraft(mca) on the drawing board ,the other one is the the russian,for which the indian airforce is finalising its specifications.

the other one is the the russian,for which the indian airforce is finalising its specifications

Meaning, the Indians will specify and the Russians will custom build for them ????