Scorpion82
New Member
I neither whining, nor do I say it's my choice. These are just my thoughts to the topic, not more not less.
Rafale loses out again?
- Thread starter Musashi_kenshin
- Start date
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
I'm not "dissing" SPECTRA, I'm sure it will be an effective system however, it is an EW self-protection system, it is NOT an offensive electronic warfare system of the type or capability such as the ICAP III on the US Navy Prowlers or the EA-18G Growlers.The fact is that I REALLY know someone working on Rafale, he told me few thing but that was very exciting...
France spent a lot of money on this system (it's something like Bn of €, exact cost unknown of course)
Do you know the Transall Gabriel or DC-8 Sarigue ? Yup the last one was retired from service, but before France had a several specialized aircrafts,we were using Active Jamming pods similar to ALQ-99 (Caiman POD) Recon Mirage F-1CR were also fitted with ASTAC Electromagnetic Recon POD.
Before we had a specialized EW Arsenal, but nowadays it's progressively disappearing...
Trying to say that Frenches don't have Plane for E-Overmatching it's something wrong with a French Present in discussion.
As to the F-16 EW suite, would you care to discuss the systems included on Israeli or Singaporean F-16's in this discussion, with their Elisra provided EW system (SPS-3000), which have proved so effective penetrating Middle Eastern operated Russian designed air defence networks, time and time again?
Perhaps the Greek (Raytheon provided) ASPIS II, which boasts all the same basic features of SPECTRA (digital RWR, IR/RADAR based MAWS, LWR, ALE-47 chaff/flare dispenser, internal self protection jammer etc)...
The list goes on and on.
Attempting to compare these systems in the public arena is futile, however modern F-16's EW systems ARE combat proven, having flown into some of the most dense air defence systems in the world, Iraq, Bosnia Herzgovina, Syria, Lebanon AND of course that most lethal of GBAD environments - Afghanistan.
Something the Rafale has not...
I find this comparison flawed for at least 3 reasons.
(1) SPECTRA isn't unique based on what you described.
(2) SPECTRA isn't combat proven while the competion is.
(3) SPECTRA AFAIK is still not even a complete system.
Just to limit things to F-16 and Rafale since those are the two aircraft in question. Have you had a look at the ECM on the F-16 blk 60 or F-16I? I dont see where SPECTRA adds anything that these dont. Morocco could order a modular configurable self protection ECM suite similar to SPECTRA just like other nations have done.
-DA
Where in any OSINT have you seen it written that SPECRTA has an "offensive mode"?The Combat proven is a sort of guarantee not something that will makes better than aonther one.
And There is an offensive mode for the SPECTRA EW Suit.
-DA
On Dassault website, they were talking about the SPECTRA use in the last Tiger MeetWhere in any OSINT have you seen it written that SPECRTA has an "offensive mode"?
-DA
:http://http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/dassault-aviation-a-magazine-focusing-on-defense/rafale-tames-the-tigers.html?L=1
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #67
Guys could we please get back on topic? This isn't whether Rafale is a good/bad fighter, but its chances for export orders.
It's their choice if this report is correct, and we don't know that. We have one press report, based on unattributed sources, repeated in other journals. No official confirmation. I see no reason to consider this report as more reliable than any of those which claimed a Rafale order was about to be signed.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
I think the essential question here is whether 36x F16 block 50 (i'll take a punt on that, i doubt they would be block 30's and i'm not sure wether block 15's/10's even exist any more, they've all been upgraded to at least block 30 standard IIRC) can provide a more capable orbat than 16 rafales.....
IMHO with some additional weapons & ISR purchases, absoloutly.
IMHO with some additional weapons & ISR purchases, absoloutly.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #71
Given Sarkozy himself has weighed in according to defensenews.com, I personally would believe the more recent story. I don't think he would do that unless the French were getting desperate.
Money talks. Lots of salesmanship going on. You create a sales pitch on the F-16 you have all kinds of past things to look at ( minus engines quitting occasionally and throwing the whole cost model over the life time in service of a small air arm out the window when one gets dumped for this reason ) For us, dumping a handful of F-16s per year is the cost of doing business.
I don't think either aircraft would be bad for Morocco. The fuzzy warm feelings that the sales effort puts out though is always what counts.
I don't think either aircraft would be bad for Morocco. The fuzzy warm feelings that the sales effort puts out though is always what counts.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Probably more useful for the marketers than anyone else, srtill, it's difficult to argue with the F-16's operational record...
I'm sure there is. But attempting to argue that it's as capable as a dedicated offensive EW jamming aircraft is ludicrous.And There is an offensive mode for the SPECTRA EW Suit.
Dassault can make all the claims they want. It doesn't stack up...
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
I
The 36x F-16 deal, will provide for 2x full strength squadrons.
From a deployability POV and concurrent deployment capability, there's no contest.
In addition the French offer is for 12x Rafales and 12x Mirage 2000's (used) or 24x Rafales.
Of the 2, obviously the Rafale/Mirage deal is going to be cheaper up front, but offer less capability than 24x Rafales and will be more expensive to support, due to 2x dissimilar fast jet types.
I would be interested to see the details of Dassault's package. There is no way they can offer 24x Rafales, plus a support, training and weapons package for under $2b EUR and still make a profit on this aircraft, unless of course it's usual price is unbelievably inflated...
Still, desperate times and all...
I still think the flexibility and capability of 36x F-16's, if they are of a relatively late Block, outweighs the French package.
This number provides 1x full size Squadron and aircraft for a training element, or 2x short squadrons.24 Rafales,
And give me arguments of your thoughts.
The 36x F-16 deal, will provide for 2x full strength squadrons.
From a deployability POV and concurrent deployment capability, there's no contest.
In addition the French offer is for 12x Rafales and 12x Mirage 2000's (used) or 24x Rafales.
Of the 2, obviously the Rafale/Mirage deal is going to be cheaper up front, but offer less capability than 24x Rafales and will be more expensive to support, due to 2x dissimilar fast jet types.
I would be interested to see the details of Dassault's package. There is no way they can offer 24x Rafales, plus a support, training and weapons package for under $2b EUR and still make a profit on this aircraft, unless of course it's usual price is unbelievably inflated...
Still, desperate times and all...
I still think the flexibility and capability of 36x F-16's, if they are of a relatively late Block, outweighs the French package.
Yes, I'm more than aware, and AFAIK Sarigue is decommissioned if not decommissioning.
1) France may have relative e-overwatch and e-overmatch for her own interests, but Morocco doesn't and so is dependant on organic capability.
2) its still cheaper for Morocco to consider excess numbers of F16's for a cheaper price as her logistics actually become easier. it also means that she has more aircraft available to tag team events. (something that Rafale must do here and now with Super Entendards anyway)
3) Morocco can get more aircraft (hence a more flexible logistics footprint) and still have monies left over for weapons fits (and a broader and most likely diverse weapons selection choice) from US and NATO compliant buss compatible weapons etc..... Rafale does not have US weaps compliant certification unless a) the US allows it, b) the customer pays for it. The example for australia os the hellfire/eurocopter combo. we paid to get it fitted and certified as there were no other french relevant systems we could use. funnily enough, france is also now fitting hellfires. (which has caused some irritation as we think we've just paid for Frances T&D of hellfire. Similar burnt fingers were experienced with Collins/Gotland certification for RAN). in other words, Moroccco can get a broader less financially egregious weapons mix if they have F-16's rather than Rafale.
4) and I'm not sure how or if this can and should be factored in. But, the King of Morocco is on a first name basis with Ridley Scott (ie, he likes americans). I'm not suggesting that being friends with influentual americans totally divorced from this industry could have a role, but personal experiences and relationships will and do create nodes of attraction. It may be a minor factor, but personal relationships influence decisions in the ME. That has been my own personal exp when dealing with Kuwaitis. A favour performed has an almost permanent trickle down effect on getting access and approval on critical decisions. They have memories like elephants.
edit: It's just been pointed out to me that Ridley Scott is english. so mea culpa! I am trying to remember the names of some of the american armourers who've worked with Ridley Scott as thats where the cassus beli "link" comes in. (my daughter is an armourers assistant, and she's pointed out the issue of the King of Morocco and his assoc with westerners the other night)
Sorry for the unintended misfeed!
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I believe the true winner is Morocco of this race is Morocco.
France will arrive to give Rafales for free if necessary, because to lose in Morocco will be a commercial, technical and political blow for France face the entire world and a serious hit to military export of France.
If Morocco, will prefer USA, that will mean the a big blow for french influence in the world.
I would like to remember that during the Parcel Island crisis, France backed Morocco instead to support the european friend Spain.
USA is playing, cause to make a better offer it's easy. A lot of F-16 old and new are available on US stocks. LM and US policy can reach 42-46 f16 at the same price if necessary.
The problem is political. Want the USA to hit french military export in the world and remark who is the true leader? May be it's the time to punish or at least give a signal to remark that also in ancient french colonies the french influence is no longer or for the Chirac arrogance during Irak crisis.
Do u remember Condy?
"Punish France, ignore Germany, forgive Russia."
Morocco will result the true winner, because will make clear that is no longer under french influence and will have good aircrafts (F16 or Rafale) for a cheap price.
France will arrive to give Rafales for free if necessary, because to lose in Morocco will be a commercial, technical and political blow for France face the entire world and a serious hit to military export of France.
If Morocco, will prefer USA, that will mean the a big blow for french influence in the world.
I would like to remember that during the Parcel Island crisis, France backed Morocco instead to support the european friend Spain.
USA is playing, cause to make a better offer it's easy. A lot of F-16 old and new are available on US stocks. LM and US policy can reach 42-46 f16 at the same price if necessary.
The problem is political. Want the USA to hit french military export in the world and remark who is the true leader? May be it's the time to punish or at least give a signal to remark that also in ancient french colonies the french influence is no longer or for the Chirac arrogance during Irak crisis.
Do u remember Condy?
"Punish France, ignore Germany, forgive Russia."
Morocco will result the true winner, because will make clear that is no longer under french influence and will have good aircrafts (F16 or Rafale) for a cheap price.
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Corrected.
And Morocco has never been a puppet country of Chirac, you clearly don't know about what you are speaking.