Rafale loses out again?

[European]

I thought that was funny nfloorl:
The EF is a good plane no doubt, especially as an interceptor or for air-to air related duty. But Rafale is a much better multirole fighter, as is SHornet too.
The Rafale is expensive true, but it was designed to accomplish all the missions of a modern Air Force. There is no need of other fighter planes with Rafale in the inventory thus in the long run it is less expensive.

Funny. At the moment EF has been bought by 6 air forces (Uk, Italy, Germany, Spain, Austri and Saudi Arabia).
EF will represent the backbone of european fighter defense.

2 bln USD / 36 F16= 55,5 milion $ at piece.
2.3 bln €= 3.24 bln USD (today 1€=1.4US$)
3.24 bln USD / 24 Rafale = 135 milion $ at piece.

So, a Rafale it costs 2 times a F16 today for a friend and customer launch country........
There's nothing funny, above all for french taxpayers. Rafale has been very expensive for France (gouvernment) that spent alone for an aircraft that has been a big effort in terms of €€€. If Rafale wil be not exported there will be no revenues, so the French taxpayers will pay lot of money to continue to subsidy national industries.

 

[harryriedl]

The truth is that Rafale is not as cheap as french supporters claim.
Rafale is expensive and suffer for the integration of US weapons. Officially many US made weapons (and stocked in the different air forces weaponry all over the world) are supported but never tested by Dassault or AdA. That's mean if someone wants to integrate non-french weapons on Rafale, then it has to pay the development.
Buying Rafale it means to pay a lot the aircraft and become dependant on french support and it means to use (and so to buy) french weapons.
Rafale is a good aircraft, but expensive (EF Typhoon is far superior and cost a bit more when dealing) and above all it's build around french air force requirement.

The only solution for Dassault to sell it's new aircraft is to develop quickly it as multirole and integrate (test) it with different weapons (Us made above all).
The problem is that development and support of different weapons will cost a lot and the price will rise again.....

The french gouvernment will need to subsidy Dassault again, again and again.....

shame Israeli hasn't bought it and used it in a war as that helped Dassult out of a sticky situation before :nutkick

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Funny. At the moment EF has been bought by 6 air forces (Uk, Italy, Germany, Spain, Austri and Saudi Arabia).......

There's nothing funny, above all for french taxpayers.

Indeed. For all the scorn poured on Eurofighter by Rafale supporters, Typhoon has excelled as it delivers what countries want.

Rafale's problem is that it tries to be all things to all men and ends up pleasing no one.

• Want a high-class interceptor? Typhoon's your best choice.
• Want an elite multi-role plane but can wait? F-35.
• Need a cheap but reliable platform? F-16 or Gripen.

Rafale doesn't win on cost, air-interceptor performance or against the Lightning II. It isn't a bad plane at all, but it isn't what most nations want.

As I said, if France wants sizeable exports (rather than just a handful sold) it will need to come up with a reasonable offer for Taiwan in the near future. If it hangs around the F-16 Block 52 deal will be authorised (odds are early/mid next year) and the chance will be lost, unless it offers a real bargain. After that all that would be available is the chance to upgrade the Mirages (the value being a mere fraction of a full Rafale sale).

Personally I think that France should bite on the bullet and go for a sale in Taiwan, even at the expense of annoying China. It knows the island would buy the Rafale for a fair price (its economy and budget could afford it) in large enough numbers to make it Dassault's while. Of course France can play it safe, but I think there won't be any other big prospective buyers - I don't think India will want to spend so much money on it.

 

[European]

To lose the Morocco deal will be very bad for Dassault. Rafale needs soon as possible a first launch customer, before the EF will reach the full AG capability and F35 will be on the market. At that time there will be a lot of second-hand F-16 on the market that will fill the market of fighter and noone would buy a fighter inferior to SuperHornet with AESA radar.
The last chance is that colonel Kaddafi of Libia will buy some Rafale, but to do that France will have to sell a nuclear reactor to libians too.....

 

[harryriedl]

To lose the Morocco deal will be very bad for Dassault. Rafale needs soon as possible a first launch customer, before the EF will reach the full AG capability and F35 will be on the market. At that time there will be a lot of second-hand F-16 on the market that will fill the market of fighter and noone would buy a fighter inferior to SuperHornet with AESA radar.
The best chance is that colonel Kaddafi of Libia will buy some Rafale, but to do that France will have to sell a nuclear reactor to libians too.....

the Colonel is the Rafs best chance but the Raf won't be able to walk it it will be a struggle to get a deal when the Russians will be selling cheap mig and Suikios BAE will be palming off cheap Tornados [supposadly the Saudi ADV's might be sold to Lybia] or trying to sell Typoons and replaceing the trainers in the process
the US will of corese will be trying to repeat the Morrco coup with lots of cheap F16.

 

[Twix101]

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[highnndry]

Here is my take on Rafale, it is like the MacIntosh of fighters. Dassalt doesn't want to integrate other platforms in here because they want to sell their own missiles, just like MacIntosh doesn't want IBM compatible softwares. In the end Mac lost out, I'm afraid Rafale will have the same fate.

Let's face it, most countries doesn't need a multi role fighter (Interceptor, bomber, naval wing) what they need is a good interceptor to keep the enemies off their air space. Unless you are a rich country or an ambitious country trying to project power a cheap bomber will do the job just fine but a good fighter/interceptor is crucial and Rafale just doesn't fit in this model.

Another important factor, Recently we leased a naval base in Morocco and it is quite possible that portion of the 2 billion includes millitary aid which they have to use to buy our defense equipment, hence the F-16.

 

[kato]

The Eurofighter is not ready to go into action, and they haven't tried to use it even it wasn't operational yet.

... Eurofighter flies CAP and intercept missions in the UK and Germany.

Since about late spring this year.

 

[Twix101]

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[Musashi_kenshin]

But no combat proven yet.

Rafale is hardly "combat proven". Flying against undefended targets on the ground doesn't really count.

Besides, this is about export orders. You may rate Rafale highly but that won't help it win overseas sales.

 

[European]

Subject of the thread are F-16 and Rafale and similar. Not F22 nor B2 cost.
It's better to turn on F16 and rafale for Morocco.

F-16 block 50 is a good fighter with multirole capabilities.
The final price of aircrafts is that of the deals with customers and not the price of production.
France offered Rafale to Morocco for 170 milions dollar and at the end for something like 130milions $ at unit.
USA offered F-16 for 55 milions $ at unit.

The gap of price is huge....
The question is wich one is the better choice for Morocco?
Many new F-16 and save more than 1 bln $ or few new Rafale and to spent a lot more?

 

[Twix101]

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[Twix101]

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[Musashi_kenshin]

makes me laugh, what about MANPAD's ? Al-Qaeda have some of these systems...

You mean Stingers so old they've got a 0.01% chance of working? Wow, I'm so impressed!

I can notice that you have also short memory.......

Are you even responding to the right person? I never passed comment on the Mirages - I'm talking about the failure of the Rafale to gain export orders.

 

[Twix101]

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[Scorpion82]

Twix,
Afghanistan isn't that dangerous at all for jets flying missions. Have you ever heared of an aircraft being shot down in Afghanistan since Enduring Freedom has begun? The danger is on the ground and even for aircraft on the ground being attacked with mortars.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Afghanistan isn't that dangerous at all for jets flying missions. Have you ever heared of an aircraft being shot down in Afghanistan since Enduring Freedom has begun? The danger is on the ground and even for aircraft on the ground being attacked with mortars.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Pilots there aren't facing any real threat - it's like being on the bombing range. The only thing they have to worry about is friendly-fire.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Pilots there aren't facing any real threat - it's like being on the bombing range. The only thing they have to worry about is friendly-fire.

as far as combat competency goes, they haven't exactly fulfilled that cleanly either. ie Rafale strike missions in afghanistan required assistance to designate targets.

 

[European]

as far as combat competency goes, they haven't exactly fulfilled that cleanly either. ie Rafale strike missions in afghanistan required assistance to designate targets.

For that i know the target are designated by the assistance of old Super Etendard M.
Rafale's pod 'Damocles' is not yet ready.

 

[Twix101]

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