Baghram and Kandahar?Wow I never seen mortar who were able to attack Aircraft Carrier 1000 km away or Airbases in another countries.
Rafale loses out again?
- Thread starter Musashi_kenshin
- Start date
Scorpion82
New Member
I bet with you that they would like to have Damcoles yet. It is right that LGB integration and therefore Damocles integration was delayed, but as you can see they suddenly needed LGBs, probably because AASM isn't completly ready yet. They rushed in the GBU-12/22, but that wasn't enough time to integrate Damocles as well and as long as buddy lasing works it wasn't that problematic at all.Is not a question if being ready yet, they don't want to put them on Rafale for the moment, it's used on Mirage 2000D & Super Etendard, to priority was to integrate A2SM on Rafale and it wasn't necessary for Afghanistan to integrate a designation POD if there is already of Aircraft with experienced people who can do it. Plus, the Rafale got the OSF, it's not replacing the POD, but It permits to follow weapon firings.
My fault, I forgot about the fact that the french aren't based in Afghanistan unlike other nations like Germany, UK etc.. Their aircraft are directly based in Afghanistan. So french aircraft are even less threatened.Wow I never seen mortar who were able to attack Aircraft Carrier 1000 km away or Airbases in another countries.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
Guys when has a fast jet ever been brought down by a manpad, even something as good as a stinger? please! Even IF the platform was flying nap of the earth, the bloke could react quick enough (which means he would have to be standing on a mountain top somewhere holding his weapon ready to fire, all day just in case) to the sound, the kinematics of that little missle wont stand a chance against a fast jet. Then even they do get that 1:10000 shot, a ~1kg warhead isnt going to do much. MANPADS are primarily anti helo stuff anyway. There is NO air threat in OEF or OIF because they are COIN campaigns.
On annother note that rafale price was rediculous!!! Why on earth would you buy rafale when you could buy twice as many F16's with 80%-90% of the capability (potentially more capable in the A2G role with the possibilty of J series weapons delivery) at litterally less than half the price! At that price F16 is a good option for a western alligned government with a limited budget as a basis of their orbat. Coupled with decent ISR platforms and the apropriate networking they will be combat viable (in A2A) well into the next century. Good choice for Morroco IMO. When you've only got limited funds the more platforms the better, even if one choice may have slightly more capable that the cheaper option.
On annother note that rafale price was rediculous!!! Why on earth would you buy rafale when you could buy twice as many F16's with 80%-90% of the capability (potentially more capable in the A2G role with the possibilty of J series weapons delivery) at litterally less than half the price! At that price F16 is a good option for a western alligned government with a limited budget as a basis of their orbat. Coupled with decent ISR platforms and the apropriate networking they will be combat viable (in A2A) well into the next century. Good choice for Morroco IMO. When you've only got limited funds the more platforms the better, even if one choice may have slightly more capable that the cheaper option.
Mmm, no.
- Germany bases most of its aircraft (all except for the 6 Tornados) out of Termez, in Uzbekistan.
- The UK doesn't have fixed-wing aircraft based in Afghanistan, only helos.
- France has a squadron of Mirage 2000D in Tajikistan, plus the carrier. 3 aircraft of the Tajik base are currently redeploying to Kandahar.
- The Netherlands have 8 F-16 stationed out of Kabul.
- The US bases its aircraft out of Kabul, Bagram and other Afghan airports, as well as carriers.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
The point being made was the Rafale did not have it's full multi-role capability in place because it required a support aircraft to designate for it. It was deployed to the Ghan for sales purposes only. The M2000 was perfectly capable of employing and designating it's own ordnance. The French were obviously hoping to boost the credibility of the Rafale, by this, but so far it doesn't seem to have done too much...Is not a question if being ready yet, they don't want to put them on Rafale for the moment, it's used on Mirage 2000D & Super Etendard, to priority was to integrate A2SM on Rafale and it wasn't necessary for Afghanistan to integrate a designation POD if there is already of Aircraft with experienced people who can do it. Plus, the Rafale got the OSF, it's not replacing the POD, but It permits to follow weapon firings.
F-16's of course have had this ability for 20 years plus...
Surely the UK has Harriers there as well???
I'm pretty certain there are 5xGR.7 and 2xGR.9 Harriers operating with the RAF at Kandahar and at least 1xC-130 based at Bagram.
Can anyone confirm?
Last edited:
mmm yeah (well, can find info on the GR.7 at least).
Scorpion82
New Member
I don't know how the Morrocan air force is structured, I know they currently fly Mirage F.1s and assume that their airforce is primarily optimised for air defence at all. It looks like the US is offering used F-16s and the question is what kind of F-16s are these aircraft. I don't expect them to deliver later F-16C/D model, but only earlier block 25 or 30 at best or maybe even F-16A/B nlock 10/15. Sure LM with strength their airframes and upgrade them a bit, but I would hardly rate such F-16s as "80-90 %" of the Rafales capabilities. Rafales in question are likely to be F3 standard and these aircraft are far more capable than any used F-16. You have also to take into account that Morroco is neither in the NATO, EU or NATO's partnership for peace programme and any interoperability concerns, NCW etc. are of total irrelevance. Used F-16s can be used for 20 years at best, while new built Rafales would be good for the next 30-40 years. Morroco has no advanced weaponary and therefore require to buy it and it is questionable that they would buy all the theoretically available weaponary for the F-16, let alone that older models aren't compatible with all the stuff newer Block 50+/60 could employ. And what does the offer includes next to the aircraft? Any additional weaponary, logistics and training are more likely not to be included in that 2 bln $ offer for the 36 F-16s. So you have basically the choice between 36 used limited capable F-16s with limited service life left or 24 new built much more capable Rafales with superior capabilities, way more growth potential and twice the life time.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #52
Even if that were true, which may not be given we don't have the details, that doesn't change the cost issue.
If Morocco wants 36 cheap planes then it will go with the F-16. You can't tell countries what they should buy - they know what they want to choose.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Even more reason to opt for 36x quality fighters than 18x higher quality fighters...
26x F-16 block 50/52 fighters (assuming this is the standard offered to Morocco) are going to represent a potent capability for many years to come, provided they are operated by a competent air force with the requisite force multipliers.
Only if the Algerian air force does it's part. Ground based SAM systems not protected by an air force have not proven overly successful in the past... Combined, they are formidable, alone they can be dealt with...
Yes, but JDAM's are reportedly a lot cheaper than AASM. IF you want longer range, the Diamondback wing-kit is available for JDAM, increasing it's range to 65k's... It was even developed by MBDA...
http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_contenu.php?lang=EN&noeu_id=117
Prove it...
In reality there are so many different configurations of EW systems for the various F-16's in-service I fail to see how this statement has any credibility whatsoever, leaving aside the issue that none of US have access to the precise capability of various EW systems and if we did, we could never post it anyway...
A Moroccan Air Force fleet of 2x Squadrons and an OCU equipped with 36x F-16's of a Block 50/52 (or equivalent MLU level) capability equipped with AMRAAM, AIM-9X, JHMCS, JDAM etc and more importantly, well supported and operated is a capability not to be dismissed lightly. Even major and very well equipped military's are buying new build F-16's of this standard...They need something that could calm down the Algerian MiG's and Su's.
Last edited by a moderator:
Scorpion82
New Member
Depends on how far the Morrocans are thinking. Buying 24 capable aircraft which are good enough for the next 30-40 years might be cheaper in the end than going for 36 aircraft you will have to replace in maybe 20 years at best. It might well be that the decision to buy used F-16s will be more expensive in the end than buying fewer new built Rafales.
Scorpion82
New Member
According http://www.f-16.net/news_article2521.html these aircraft will be used and though no one can exclude the possibility of a F-16 Blk 50 sell, I think it is more unlikely. The price alone suggests that these aircraft are not likely to be latest variants. But as mentioned it depends on what is included. What weapons are likely for export to Morroco for the F-16? I assume AMRAAM, Sidewinder, PW II and JDAM. You will probably not see HARM or JASSM or WCMD. In the end we'll have to wait for more details.
If these jets would be 36 new built F-16C/D blk 50+/52+ I would say ok, but in the case of much less capable used derivates I would definitely go for the Rafale. But me isn't Morroco
nfloorl:
Thats a bit of an oversimplification - and in real terms disingenuous.
The US uses a systems overmatch capability. She's done that since 1999. Packages are cleared before arrival by using Compass xx, Rivet xx, and if CV's are present. Prowlers.
France has none of that capability at an ewarfare overmatch level and elects to substitute the capability by providing limited organic measures.
No FWCA organic suite is going to be remotely capable as a dedicated E-overmatch and E-overwatch.
Trying to compare french doctrine as a relational equation to US platforms ignores US doctrine completely.
On another note the Spectra program must be huge, every French poster I come across either knows someone on the project or is aware of the details.
Scorpion82
New Member
I agree on that, nonetheless it is important that countries such as Morroco haven't such capabilities either, so an aircraft such as the F-16 with a more limited EWS would be disadvantaged. I know that different F-16s use different EWS, but which of them provides an EWS with all the capabilities of the SPECTRA? SPECTRA includes advanced digital RWRs, ELINT/SIGINT capabilities, directed ECM, chaff/flare dispensers, well placed IR MAWs and LWR. Typical F-16s are equipped with RWR and chaff/flare dispensers, some newer models include an internal ECM and few use IR based MAWs integrated into wing pylons. That is hardly compareable to the SPECTRA. And though details are unknown one can assume that the Rafale's RWRs with ranging and ELINT/SIGINT capabilities are superior to the AN/ALR-69 & 56M systems fieled in most if not all F-16s.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #59
But it is their choice. You can't keep whinging that they're making the "wrong" one.