Rafale loses out again?

[Musashi_kenshin]

PARIS (Thomson Financial) - Morocco is likely to order US-made F-16 fighter planes instead of Rafales made by France's Dassault Aviation, La Tribune reported, citing 'several' agreeing sources.

The US is said to have offered 36 F-16s made by Lockheed Martin Corp for less than 2 bln usd while France was proposing 18 Rafales for 2.3 bln eur, the business daily said.

In response to the US offer, the French authorities amended their proposal to 12 Rafales and 12 Mirages or 24 Rafales for 2 bln eur, but sources are not hopeful that France will get the order, according to the report.

Until recently, the French side was hopeful that the first Rafale export contract could be signed during a visit by President Nicolas Sarkozy to Morocco scheduled for next month, the newspaper added.

http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2007/09/21/afx4142310.html

Is anyone going to buy Rafale?

 

[harryriedl]

PARIS (Thomson Financial) - Morocco is likely to order US-made F-16 fighter planes instead of Rafales made by France's Dassault Aviation, La Tribune reported, citing 'several' agreeing sources.

The US is said to have offered 36 F-16s made by Lockheed Martin Corp for less than 2 bln usd while France was proposing 18 Rafales for 2.3 bln eur, the business daily said.

In response to the US offer, the French authorities amended their proposal to 12 Rafales and 12 Mirages or 24 Rafales for 2 bln eur, but sources are not hopeful that France will get the order, according to the report.

Until recently, the French side was hopeful that the first Rafale export contract could be signed during a visit by President Nicolas Sarkozy to Morocco scheduled for next month, the newspaper added.

http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2007/09/21/afx4142310.html

Is anyone going to buy Rafale?

if true its an other blow to the the Raf program [i always thought it was a bit pricey for Morocco] exports are looking pretty bleak

 

[barra]

Looking at those figures why would anyone buy Rafale? Twice as many F-16's for less than the Rafale offer. I suppose it depends on what block number the F-16's on offer were. What goodies were included.
The Rafale is such a good looking aircraft it is a shame that it is destined to be an orphan. Do you think the original French offer shows a certain amount of arrogance in that they believed the order was in the bag?

Barra

 

[harryriedl]

Looking at those figures why would anyone buy Rafale? Twice as many F-16's for less than the Rafale offer. I suppose it depends on what block number the F-16's on offer were. What goodies were included.
The Rafale is such a good looking aircraft it is a shame that it is destined to be an orphan. Do you think the original French offer shows a certain amount of arrogance in that they believed the order was in the bag?

Barra

i think their was a bit of arrogance involved as Morocco as it was part of the francophone nations as well as being a French ally in N Africa. The Morocco's were also big users of French Kit so they assumed it was a given that the Raf would be bought by the Morocco [it could be said they suffered the same kind of arrogance's that the Gripen team suffered in Austria]

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

exports are looking pretty bleak

I think the only potential customer now is Taiwan. Yes, China would bitch but there's little it could do, especially since Chirac is no longer president.

It's either no export sales (of any real value) or creating some hostility from Beijing in return for a big sale to Taiwan, though the pricing would have to be done carefully in order to tempt Taipei not to wait for the F-16 approval. There might also be the chance of another money-spinner by upgrading the ROCAF's existing Mirages.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

If they were block 50's you can see why they chose the F16's, you get 80% (ish) of the capability, with twice the platfomrs, at a lower price. Bargain basement.

 

[rjmaz1]

If only that french guy who was banned could take part in this discussion

He made it out like the Morrocan contract was already signed and deliveries were about to begin :

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6285


Realistic.
Astonishing.
Technology.

nfloorl:

On a serious note. That price for teh F-16's are quite attractive. I wonder if they are new builds? They could be older F-16's that are going through the same USAF modernisation program. Either way the F-16 option is good.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

he really did love dassault didn't he? i mean we all have our favorites but geesh, you'd think Rafale was the single most capable and affordable multi role platform on the planet, the only problem being that the rest of the world just didnt know it yet! Shame, he knew his stuff too.

 

[Scorpion82]

The main question is what is included in the offer. Maybe the US offer is for the aircraft only or the US offers used F-16A MLU. Until no details are known it is impossible to judge fairly. Fact is that the Rafale isn't very cheap. Otherwise the Rafale provides a higher growth potential, better performance and it is more advanced than most F-16s.

 

[Gladius]

The main question is what is included in the offer. Maybe the US offer is for the aircraft only or the US offers used F-16A MLU. Until no details are known it is impossible to judge fairly.

Exactly... And other possibility to be accounted is a mix of F-16 Block 50 & F-16A MLU...

But like you said, at this time we don't know the details of the offers. However beyond that, the economic difference is very important for an economy of Morocco level.

The last French offers supposes 24 aircrafts, all Rafale or a mix Rafale-Mirage (unspecified model) with a price of 2818 million US$

The US offer comprises 36 F-16 (Block 50?, MLU?, ADF? or a mix maybe...) with a price of 2000 million US$.

A difference of more than 800 million, for 12 planes less for the French (friendly) deal is an important sum to be considered.

And IMO is very strange the last offer of 24 Rafale with the same prize tag than the mix of 12 Rafale and 12 "Mirage" (2000C?) theoretically a less capable aircraft than Rafale, with the added issue of two different logistic chains to be added instead only one with the "only Rafale" or "F-16" deals. But maybe the last offer of Rafale only is for 18 planes not 24. In that case the 12 Rafale + 12 Mirage offer have more sense.

 

[Scorpion82]

And IMO is very strange the last offer of 24 Rafale with the same prize tag than the mix of 12 Rafale and 12 "Mirage" (2000C?) theoretically a less capable aircraft than Rafale, with the added issue of two different logistic chains to be added instead only one with the "only Rafale" or "F-16" deals. But maybe the last offer of Rafale only is for 18 planes not 24. In that case the 12 Rafale + 12 Mirage offer have more sense.

I think there is the clue. Two types require different ground equipment and this may be the reason for a similar price.

 

[kato]

The US offer comprises 36 F-16 (Block 50?, MLU?, ADF? or a mix maybe...) with a price of 2000 million US$.

According to most accounts i've read, the aircraft would be used aircraft from USAF stocks. That would exclude MLU, and would make Block 50/52 somewhat unlikely (other than early batches). I'd bet at most on Block 40/42.

The price is of course a combat price. Maybe some training, some spares, but in essence it's a combat price designed to do one thing only, and that's undercut the French offer.

 

[Gladius]

I think there is the clue. Two types require different ground equipment and this may be the reason for a similar price.

But why they make that offer?

For Morocco the twenty four Rafale is a much better deal (if they pay the same) than the mix Rafale-Mirage. And the "Mirage" must be F-1 or M-2000C refurbished, because the production line of the M2000 was closed months ago by Dassault.

If the Moroccan Air Force already had Mirage 2000, I would be able to understand it, but they don't.

Sincerely, I don't see any sense to that offer twelve plus twelve "by the same price" of twenty four Rafales. The mix Rafale-Mirage (2000?) duplicates the problem of logistics, requires two programs of support instead one, and force to introduce two new different training programs for pilots and land crews, etc... If the "mix offer" were for more planes than the offer of Rafales, well... that make more sense, but by the same number of planes, at the same "price tag" is a poor deal for me.

And 2800 million for twelve Rafales and 12 "Mirages" buffff... The Mirage offered must be M-2000-5 Mk 2 for that money, but still...

Remember the Brazilians paid "80 Million US$" for their twelve Mirage 2000C/B bought in 2005.

According to most accounts i've read, the aircraft would be used aircraft from USAF stocks. That would exclude MLU, and would make Block 50/52 somewhat unlikely (other than early batches). I'd bet at most on Block 40/42.

The price is of course a combat price. Maybe some training, some spares, but in essence it's a combat price designed to do one thing only, and that's undercut the French offer.

Yes. Most probably.

But don't forget the recent friendly US deals with Morocco, like the 29 million deal for 60 M-109A5 plus Hummer engines, wheel assemblies, repair & spares, logistic support, etc... Not very expensive IMO.

 

[funtz]

How do you say "where is the love" in french
où est l'amour
May be, my french is really bad.

The F-16 + integration of latest developments (amraam, ASEA radar)+United States Department of Defense might be too hot to handle.

Dassault Aviation and Ministre de la Défense seem to be loosing out on a lot of money, where is that virtual stealth, may be that virtual stealth is some european humor beyond my comprehention.

Dassault Aviation will have to bundle the deal with lot of gifts, any well informed person know what Dassault could throw in.

 

[Scorpion82]

I never heared before about the offered 12+12 deal. The only reason behind this could be a quick delivery of some Mirage 2000s, while the Rafales need longer to arrive.

MLU can't be excluded for the Morrcean deal. Italy leased MLU aircraft as well. They are just F-16A Blk 15 upgraded with some MLU modifications. That means the US wouldn't sell thge aircraft as they are, but upgrade them and lengthen their life.

 

[kato]

MLU can't be excluded for the Morrcean deal.

The Italian F-16 were from US Reserve stocks (as in mothballed), not "from USAF stocks".

Well, we'll see how it'll play out.

 

[Scorpion82]

The Italian F-16 were from US Reserve stocks (as in mothballed), not "from USAF stocks".

Well, we'll see how it'll play out.

Where did I wrote USAF stocks? But it doesn't matters at all. It's about used aircraft or not.

 

[2000]

The Euro is too strong and it keeps getting stronger and stronger. It has been playing against Rafale export since quite some time now. On the other end, the weakness of the dollar is an advantage, especially when it comes with a big discount.

 

[European]

The truth is that Rafale is not as cheap as french supporters claim.
Rafale is expensive and suffer for the integration of US weapons. Officially many US made weapons (and stocked in the different air forces weaponry all over the world) are supported but never tested by Dassault or AdA. That's mean if someone wants to integrate non-french weapons on Rafale, then it has to pay the development.
Buying Rafale it means to pay a lot the aircraft and become dependant on french support and it means to use (and so to buy) french weapons.
Rafale is a good aircraft, but expensive (EF Typhoon is far superior and cost a bit more when dealing) and above all it's build around french air force requirement.

The only solution for Dassault to sell it's new aircraft is to develop quickly it as multirole and integrate (test) it with different weapons (Us made above all).
The problem is that development and support of different weapons will cost a lot and the price will rise again.....

The french gouvernment will need to subsidy Dassault again, again and again.....

 

[2000]

EF Typhoon is far superior

I thought that was funny nfloorl:
The EF is a good plane no doubt, especially as an interceptor or for air-to air related duty. But Rafale is a much better multirole fighter, as is SHornet too.
The Rafale is expensive true, but it was designed to accomplish all the missions of a modern Air Force. There is no need of other fighter planes with Rafale in the inventory thus in the long run it is less expensive.