Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[airfighter]

T-129 is a very nice effort from Turkey. But it has some problems, I believe.
1. The A-129 is a lightweight attack helicopter. Putting stonger engines maybe will overcome the problem of the planned additional grossweight.
2. It may carry up to 12 AGM-114 maximum, 4 less than an Apache.
3. The biggest problem will be the systems' intergration, since every systems will be new, never on helicopter yet.
4. These systems have to be tested and quilified.
5. Although an Isreali radar had been announced to be intergrated, at the photo beleg provided to us, there is no radar.

When US Army decide to upgrade AH-64A, it took almost 8 years from design to production, without any upgrade to the fuselage-engines-dynamic componets. And Americans have the "know how". I believe that Turkey will need about a decade to field operational aircrafts.

 

[swerve]

T-129 is a very nice effort from Turkey. But it has some problems, I believe.
1. The A-129 is a lightweight attack helicopter. Putting stonger engines maybe will overcome the problem of the planned additional grossweight.
2. It may carry up to 12 AGM-114 maximum, 4 less than an Apache.
3. The biggest problem will be the systems' intergration, since every systems will be new, never on helicopter yet.
4. These systems have to be tested and quilified.
5. Although an Isreali radar had been announced to be intergrated, at the photo beleg provided to us, there is no radar.

When US Army decide to upgrade AH-64A, it took almost 8 years from design to production, without any upgrade to the fuselage-engines-dynamic componets. And Americans have the "know how". I believe that Turkey will need about a decade to field operational aircrafts.

Lightweight? About the same weight as a late-model AH-1. And 75% as many AGM-114 on a helicopter not much more than half the weight of an AH-64D.

I don't see why this should take a decade to develop. A lot of the improvements over the original A129 have already been developed, & Agusta has been trying to sell them to the Italian military. The contract calls for delivery to begin in 2012. Even if it's late, I don't believe it'll take twice as long as contracted for.

 

[airfighter]

Lightweight? About the same weight as a late-model AH-1. And 75% as many AGM-114 on a helicopter not much more than half the weight of an AH-64D.

I don't see why this should take a decade to develop. A lot of the improvements over the original A129 have already been developed, & Agusta has been trying to sell them to the Italian military. The contract calls for delivery to begin in 2012. Even if it's late, I don't believe it'll take twice as long as contracted for.

Why lightweight: Max Gross Weight: A-129 International 11,245 lbs - AH-64A 21,000 lbs - AH-64D 23,000 lbs. At this time A-129 can carry 8 AGM-114s.

Why a decade: Most of the sensors will be Turkish (ASELSAN). These sensors never have been integrated in an attack helicopter. What about funds? Turkey will be able funding the development without drawbacks? I have already mentioned, radar seems not to be in the final contract.

 

[kato]

Why lightweight: Max Gross Weight: A-129 International 11,245 lbs - AH-64A 21,000 lbs - AH-64D 23,000 lbs. At this time A-129 can carry 8 AGM-114s.

11,245 lbs is not light for a combat helo. Lightweight helos weigh half that at most.

 

[airfighter]

11,245 lbs is not light for a combat helo. Lightweight helos weigh half that at most.

AH-2 Rooivalk: 19,300 lbs
Mil-28 Havoc: 25,700 lbs
Ka-50: 23,800 lbs
RAH-66 Comanche (canceled): 17,175 lbs
AH-56 Cheyenne (canceled): 25,880 lbs

Eurocopter Tiger: 13,000 lbs (made by:80% carbon fiber reinforced polymer and kevlar - 11% aluminium - 6% titanium and can carry only up to 8 AGM-114s).

 

[beleg]

Why lightweight: Max Gross Weight: A-129 International 11,245 lbs - AH-64A 21,000 lbs - AH-64D 23,000 lbs. At this time A-129 can carry 8 AGM-114s.

Why a decade: Most of the sensors will be Turkish (ASELSAN). These sensors never have been integrated in an attack helicopter. What about funds? Turkey will be able funding the development without drawbacks? I have already mentioned, radar seems not to be in the final contract.

The sensors, mission computer and the FLIR systems that will be used in T-129 already integrated in an AH-1 and they are being developed & tested for 3 years. The project has started years ago and has been funded since then.. The modified AH-1 recently made live fire tests with Spike missile. So your information is wrong. About the mmw radar , ASELSAN has started an R&D project half a year ago to develop a mmw radar locally to integrate in various land and air platforms. It is highly possible that such a radar will be installed on the helicopters. This will probably take a while though. Once the detail on Turkish long distance anti armor missile project become clear we will know if the T-129 will have mmw radar or not. Typical mission of T-129 will not be tank hunting like AH-64 but attack and recon missions , escort in CSAR missions and internal security operations against terrorists etc. Most likely they will be carrying 8 A-T missiles (local design operational after 2010s/Spike?) , laser guided 2.75" rockets (local design operational after 2008) and Stinger A-A missiles against enemy helicopters. In internal security operations they will mostly use the rockets and the cannon. AH-64 with its very low mission readiness, limitations on tech transfer and indigenous weapons installation was never an option for Turkish Land Forces Command. TLF was looking for a helicopter which was similar to AH1W Super Cobra in size and performance criteria. The engines installed in T-129 are the ones designed to power Commanche.

 

[Yasin20]

you know what i heard something about turkiye and s.korea are going to work together on a next generation jet i seec some concepts one of them look a bit like the F35 but instead of one big engine just have 2 instead

and i reckon that turkiye is better off investing in its industries and i reckon turkiye is makeing time its freind not its enemy

Mod edit: Merged posts since is discussing same topic from same poster, back to back with second posts a continuation of 1st post
-Preceptor.

 

[balamir]

To continue on Beleg's post:

An AH-1 successfully fired a missile using new Aselsan mission computer on September 26th. This is a milestone towards Atak-2 project. The helicopter used AselFlir-200 and the target was destroyed.

Credits go to Warrior for finding the announcement.

 

[kato]

Eurocopter Tiger: 13,000 lbs (made by:80% carbon fiber reinforced polymer and kevlar - 11% aluminium - 6% titanium and can carry only up to 8 AGM-114s).

SA-341 Gazelle - 3,960 lbs (max 4 HOT)
Bo-105M (PAH-1) - 5,510 lbs (max 6 HOT)
AH-6 (MD-500) - 3,550 lbs (max 4 TOW or AGM-114)
Bell 406CS - 5,500 lbs (max 4 TOW or AGM-114)

Those are light combat helos.

The Tiger, A-129, AH-1 and e.g. also the AS-565 Panther are mid-sized combat helos.
AH-64, Ka-50 or Rooivalk are really the heavy sluggers in that field.

 

[beleg]

Balamir its a happy day for Turkish Defence Industry. All the efforts since 2001 to develop a national suite for our future helicopter has finalized. Now with little modification we will install ASEL-FLIR 300 which has even higher capabilities than ASEL-FLIR 200 on our T-129. I cant wait to see that sucker fly!

 

[Yasin20]

when is the T129 going in production now that the tech is bought

 

[beleg]

Yasin there is no tech that is bought here. Augusta/TAI will produce the parts of the helicopter, Aselsan will produce its mission suite , TAI will do the integration and assembly job. We will buy a naked helicopter and fill it with our own suite of electronics and weapons. The ASMATA system is designed and developed by ASELSAN. This includes the ASEL-FLIR 200/300 series and all the mission computers , mfds etc. It will still take some time to fly the first helicopter.. Probably a few years.

 

[guest]

Camera use in Hellenic Air force camp

I am sorry it may be rather irrelevant, but I was wondering the security issue of Hellenic Air Force. I know someone who has been taking pictures in a camp (and the person told me that it is not permitted) and putting them on his own website titled as "top secret". Isn't this considered to be some serious security breech?

 

[beleg]

Depends on what type of pictures. In Turkey taking pictures of military zones is still a serious crime as well.. The person you know better be careful about it.

 

[guest]

Security Issues

Some of the pictures were of radar, missiles, trucks, and pictures of a product specification tag with serial number etc for the missile launchers sitting in a back of truck. This Hellenic Air Force camp has a Patriot system, and I was actually surprised to see these photos. Maybe Greece has more relaxed regulations regards to pictures.

 

[Izzy1]

Some of the pictures were of radar, missiles, trucks, and pictures of a product specification tag with serial number etc for the missile launchers sitting in a back of truck. This Hellenic Air Force camp has a Patriot system, and I was actually surprised to see these photos. Maybe Greece has more relaxed regulations regards to pictures.

Couple of years back, Greece arrested a bunch of British "aircraft enthusiasts" who just happened to be hanging around the fenceline of a major HAF air base taking detailed pictures of their F-16s.

The Greeks thought they were spies and locked them up in jail. It took a week for the UK Embassy to explain the Great British tradition of "Train Spotting" which also now includes aircraft and that these guys were'nt spies, just genuine aircraft enthusiasts on tour.

However, given this track record and if you know the person involved, perhaps you should have a serious word?

Kit from distance is one thing, up-close serial numbers - that's something else...

 

[guest]

Security Issue

I actually told the person what I think of his website, and pretty much I was told it's his website and he has the right to do whatever he wants. This is unthinkable in where I come from and can be considered an activity of a spy. I don't know how the rules and regulations are in this air force base in Greece. I would think military would be generally searching on the world wide web for any sort of security breech/information leak. I just thought to join this forum and ask people for their knowledge and experiences as what my friend is doing seems serious even to my eyes but my advice wasn't taken as he thought I was jealous of his website.

 

[Izzy1]

I actually told the person what I think of his website, and pretty much I was told it's his website and he has the right to do whatever he wants. This is unthinkable in where I come from and can be considered an activity of a spy. I don't know how the rules and regulations are in this air force base in Greece. I would think military would be generally searching on the world wide web for any sort of security breech/information leak. I just thought to join this forum and ask people for their knowledge and experiences as what my friend is doing seems serious even to my eyes but my advice wasn't taken as he thought I was jealous of his website.

Big E...?

 

[beleg]

Dear Guest, Its a serious crime in Greece as well. Although I would very much like to see the pictures of the said missiles, such pictures would cause security concerns for the Greek Armed Forces and could put your friend in very serious situation. They will think he is a Turkish Spy

 

[Izzy1]

Dear Guest, Its a serious crime in Greece as well. Although I would very much like to see the pictures of the said missiles, such pictures would cause security concerns for the Greek Armed Forces and could put your friend in very serious situation. They will think he is a Turkish Spy

beleg is right in what he says and that should be more than enough of an incentive to put him off.

Still, his own daft choice at the end of the day. Let him make his own mistakes and let's us get back on topic.