Active UK helicopter strength

[Izzy1]

Fleet Air Arm total fleet(2015):

30 Future Lynx
30 Merlin
20 either upgraded Sea King or a new airframe(possibly NH90)

On paper this is a much downsized fleet from the one a couple of years ago..
however it still is a significant and highly capable fleet given proper funding..

only time will tell..

You make some valid points, but here again is my problem - we already have plenty of EH101s. Its just a shame that most of them are out chasing submarines that ain't there.

There are 42 HM Mk.1 Merlins in service with the Fleet Air Arm - not to mention another 34 HAS Mk.6 Sea Kings. Why isn't the MoD stripping some of these Merlins of their ASW kit and painting them olive drab? We already own them and we sure don't have enough capital ships left anymore that demand all their time.

Perhaps I'm missing something?!!!

 

[Super Nimrod]

Agree with the comment about stripping out the ASW and painting green. Even if its just a temporary measure it must be worth considering to see if its possible as if they want any more Merlins from new they will have to go to the back of the queue.

 

[neil]

You make some valid points, but here again is my problem - we already have plenty of EH101s. Its just a shame that most of them are out chasing submarines that ain't there.

There are 42 HM Mk.1 Merlins in service with the Fleet Air Arm - not to mention another 34 HAS Mk.6 Sea Kings. Why isn't the MoD stripping some of these Merlins of their ASW kit and painting them olive drab? We already own them and we sure don't have enough capital ships left anymore that demand all their time.

Perhaps I'm missing something?!!!

I remember a while back there were some reports that the Mod was concidering sending some of the retired ASW Sea Kings to Afghanistan..

These reports were circulating about the same time that some people suggested that more civilian helo's were chartered to do some of the more mundane transport tasks in afghanistan.. freeing up RAF choppers for the military tasks.. I believe the idea was dropped due to the age of the Sea King airframes..

Using Royal Navy Merlins for troops transport etc. is a great idea izzy1.. they don't even have to transfer them to the RAF.. with the present importance of 'jointness' in everything the services do.. the role can be given to the Fleet Air Arm with relatively minor modifications to the airframes..

 

[Pingu]

I too, am confused as to why the UK is not using reserve aircraft. After all, that's what they're for. The deal with Canada is a clever one which gets the aircraft operational quickly but surely it would have been quicker and cheaper to use the reserve aircraft and then order more directly from AgustaWestland to replenish the reserve.

I agree also on the fact that HM1 to HC3 conversion should be considered. The SCMR seems to overlap in some areas with the HM1. Surely the Navy does not need 44 HM1s and 30 Future Lynxs. At first, I didn't like the idea of 100 or so NH90s being a combined BRH/SMCR/SABR solution but now I am thinking, it would solve many problems. HM1s could be converted to HC3s and the NH90 would fill the gap.

Also, the only 40 Future Lynxs have been ordered for the BRH. Is this enough to replace the inventory of current Lynxs and Gazelles (I hear that Gazelles are being retired entirely)?

Another thing I dissagree with is the attempt to deploy Apache's from ships. There were problems trying this initially. I am not sure if they have been solved but surely it would just be better to modify a small number of Future Lynx since they have marinised airframes. Commonality would be maintained and maintainance would be far simpler than that on Apaches. It would be essentially like replacing the Marines' AH7s.

Also, it is such a shame that the UK spent a lot of money on the Chinook Mk3 and now it is having to spend even more money to downgrade it. That makes for a hell of an expensive non-specialised Chinook. I would hope that some of the Mk3 elements are kept during the downgrade, such as the extra fuel etc.

I think the best solution would be to convert half of the HM1s to HC3s then procure a suitable amount of NH90s that are capable of both ASuW and ASW. These would be essentially replacing the Lynx HM8 and the HM1s that have been converted to HC3s. Because around 20 Merlins will have been converted, this would essentially reduce the amount of helicopters needed for the SABR "medium lift" and then the heavy lift requirment could be met by the CH53K.

Perhaps the buy of 40 Future Lynxs would be best for BRH as a light and more nimble aircraft is needed for recconaisance.

 

[neil]

yes.. a buy of 100 NH90's would be great.. however with only three billion pounds currently budgeted for future rotorcraft, I don't see it happening..

I do believe that the current plan is to order replacement helo's for the puma and sea king fleets around 2010.. (that is if they aren't given a life extension).. this replacement could well be the NH90.. or AW149.

as far as operating apaches from ships are concerned.. the WAH 64's were designed with folding blades to accommodate this.. it would be a waste not to use this capability.. they would provide a far greater firepower to 3 commando brigade than upgraded future lynx would.. and better survivability..

converting 20 Royal Navy Merlins to HC3 standard sounds perfect..

 

[Pingu]

yes.. a buy of 100 NH90's would be great.. however with only three billion pounds currently budgeted for future rotorcraft, I don't see it happening..

The idea of 100 NH90s was actually proposed as a cost saving solution to basically meet the SMCR, SABR and BRH with just one platform (the cost savings would essentially come from having a single aircraft type).

I do believe that the current plan is to order replacement helo's for the puma and sea king fleets around 2010.. (that is if they aren't given a life extension).. this replacement could well be the NH90.. or AW149.

As for a Puma life extension, I think I read the other day that's what they're doing (but that was at a glance and I didn't read the details). The replacment for the Pumas and Seakings is the SABR (Support Amphibious Battlefield Rotorcraft). The name of these programs has now changed but I am referring to them as SCMR/SABR as they are more simple to read and write.

as far as operating apaches from ships are concerned.. the WAH 64's were designed with folding blades to accommodate this.. it would be a waste not to use this capability.. they would provide a far greater firepower to 3 commando brigade than upgraded future lynx would.. and better survivability..

I totaly agree but I remember hearing a lot about the Apache having problems despite its folding tail. I am not sure if these problems have been solved yet but if they have then I agree that the apache is the best option.

 

[Pingu]

I am a little confused about numbers.

The UK has ordered 70 Future Lynxs to replace
- 37 HAS3s
- 36 HMA8s
- 98 AH3s
- 22 AH9s

This doesn't add up, and also, what is happening to the gazelles? Perhaps the AH3s and AH9s should be used to replace the Gazelle in the training role.

I guess a force of 67 Apaches and 40 Future Lynxs are suitable replacments for 89 AH3s and 22 AH9s, so I think I may have answered my own question there.

As for the Navy, it doesn't add up, unless the HM1s are considered as negating the need for so many Lynxs. Again though, Surely having a smaller number of NH90 type platforms in a dual role ASuW/ASW would be better than seperate Merlins and Lynxs which have an unecessary overlap.

 

[Pingu]

Ahhh, I have just realised that HAS3s and HMA8s do not co-exist and that the HMA8 is an upgraded HAS3. So I guess the numbers do add up.

 

[Super Nimrod]

From todays defencetalk in case you haven't seen it. Major Puma service life extension proposal

Eurocopter implements RAF Puma Upgrade Assessment Phase

Under contract to the UK Ministry of Defence, Eurocopter is carrying out the assessment phase for the life extension programme for the RAF’s fleet of Puma Mk1 helicopters with the aim of enhancing the British Armed Forces’ much-needed medium-lift capability. It is managed by a Eurocopter/Ministry of Defence Joint Project Office, already in operation in Bristol since August 20, 2007. The programme will be based on comprehensive upgrades, including new Turbomeca Makila engines, glass cockpits, and new communications, navigation and defensive systems for up to 35 of the RAF’s Pumas.

The Assessment Phase, scheduled for a period of one year, will consider the detailed technical, operational and cost implications of the upgrade and will lead, upon successful completion, to a full development and manufacture contract for delivery of the main programme.

The new Pumas, which will be designated Puma HC Mk2, will consequently be capable of remaining in service until around 2022. Their performance and payload will be significantly enhanced, particularly in hot and high conditions. As the backbone of the RAF’s fleet of medium-lift helicopters, the Pumas will continue to play a vital role in operational theatres such as Iraq and Afghanistan.

I think we saw this coming. It sounds a bigger upgrade than I think was anticipated if it includes new glass cockpit etc

Thoughts ?

 

[neil]

I think we saw this coming. It sounds a bigger upgrade than I think was anticipated if it includes new glass cockpit etc

Thoughts ?

I believe it to be a workable solution.. Being South African I will take the South African Air Force as an example.. they upgraded 50 odd old Pumas in the late 80's with new avionics and engines..

The resulting helicopter (named Oryx in SAAF service), proved to be highly successful and versatile, especially in hot and high African conditions(the South African highveld and on peace missions in the Democratic Republic of Conge etc.)

So it can be done successfully.. the main thing for me is, they must just keep in mind the reason why they want to upgrade these old machines.. that is to save the expense of buying new machines..

Upgrade programmes can be rife with problems as Nimrod MR 4 has shown.. everything should be done to keep the upgrade costs to a minimum and to avoid delays to in service dates..

further it seems to me that keeping the current shortage of support helo's in mind.. the RAF should purchase extra airframes on the second hand market to bring the number of pumas up to, say, 50?

Anyway.. if executed properly, I do believe the RAF Puma upgrade proposal can be a solution to their problems created by funding shortfalls..

My 50 cents worth..

 

[Navor86]

Hopefully this the Right Thread.
Is there any intel whether and when the Helos of the Commando Force will be replaced. And more specific with which Helo?
I have herad that for SABR there will be another 24 Merlin+16 AH 64 to replace the Commandos Lynx and Sea Kings. Can anyone put more intel?

 

[riksavage]

Makes sense –the Merlin is an excellent medium helicopter, which can carry the marines armoured Viking (broken down into two sections) as an under-slung load. Apaches have been operating off Ocean and recent operational experience in Afghanistan working in support of 42 Commando proved how useful they are in providing close support. Should they go down this route both the Merlin’s and Apaches would need to be marinised, which for the former is no problem, already been done for the RN variants?

The UK operates a joint helicopter command (RN/RAF/Army) so for logistical reasons I would reduce the fleet to Chinook, Merlin, Future Lynx and Apache. The gazelles were always regarded as a senior officer taxis service, so much better to replace them with a naval version of the Apache. It would also be great if the Apaches could be adapted to fire sea skua, or a planned repacement.

 

[Super Nimrod]

Anyone got any news about this urgent Sea King upgrade project that was apparently announced last week ? The PM said that some were going to be upgraded so that they could fly in the hot and high conditions of afghanistan and would be deployed next year, but I haven't seen a single formal announcement as to exactly what is involved. It must be a significant upgrade surely ?