Active UK helicopter strength

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Izzy1

Banned Member
I have to wonder though if 'Bravo November' has built up a reputation as the aircraft to use in rough patches? Something along the lines of "This mission will be rough, so take Bravo November, she will always bring you home." Or something else along similar lines about the reliability of a particular aircraft.
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You may not be wrong, but what worries me is given the demands being placed on the UK Armed Forces, I'd like a few more 'Bravo Novembers'!

The RAF has 40 x HC2/HC2A Chinooks - they constitute just under 50% of the TOTAL rotary-wing RAF combat fleet. For an armed force supposed to meet multiple expeditionary warfare commitments, that's simply not enough. And we are being found wanting.

At this very moment, we have Chinooks in the UK, supposed to be under refurb for Iraq/Afghanistan supporting the flood relief efforts at home.
 
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Bolton Scribble

New Member
Comments about the NH-90 for SF production slots for the NH-90 are at least three years away given current orders. I would have thought that it would be unlikley that the NH-90 will eneter service in the UK due to the number of types currently in service. MoD are looking to rationalise spares holdings etc., so I would envsage that make up of uk Helios will be around the Future Lynx Merlin and Chinook and that the Puma could well be around to 2022 and the Junglie seakinga through to 2017
 
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Izzy1

Banned Member
Puma could well be around to 2022...
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That's frightening, considering most of our Puma's were delivered in the mid-1970s and have had little in the way of upgrades since. The MoD now has even been forced to buy second-hand South African models to make up for attrition - what do we do 10 years further down the line?

I well understand the MoD's argument for reducing types and rationalising the logistics/maintenance chain. But surely given the demands now being placed on the UK's armed forces, effective kit - in realistic numbers - is the priority.

A more rationale procurement policy would be a good start - why did we buy 44 ASW-dedicated HM.Mk1 Merlins for the Fleet Air Arm and only 22 HC.Mk 3 RAF Transport EH101s? Even in 1991, when the MoD committed to the Merlin HM.Mk1 order, it was clear the UK would be facing a substantially decreased submarine threat.

More "forward" thinking from Whitehall I guess.
 
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buglerbilly

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
There is a formal review underway with Eurocopter looking at a PUMA life-extension. No guarantee it will succeed and go into a rebuild BUT not good news that they are even looking IMHO.

They should have procured at least another 20-24 Merlins in the newer Mark 3+ standard a number of years ago and the fact 13 or so Chinooks have been moldering in storage for years is stupid bordering on criminally insane! There is still no obligation to adopt a re-build of Chinooks to CH-47F or G standards an equally dumb state of affairs. The UK probably needs another 12-18 New Chinooks to this latest standard to allow it the re-capitalisation flexibility to maintain the status quo whilst the rest are revamped.

There is still need for a Utility helo between Future Lynx and Merlin in my opinion, and opportunity must exist for NH-90 (HIGH end capability) OR A-149 (LOWer end capability and hence FAR lower cost-to-acquire) to provide broad enough flexibility and capability. Considering A-149 is dedicated to the former Westland to develop and build this latter could be a good and cheap selection to make (AW-139 costs circa USD$ 6 Million, A-149 is possibly going to be another $2 Million on top of that due to "militarisation" possibly bigger engines?).

My 2 cents worth..............

Regards,

BUG
 
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Bolton Scribble

New Member
Fo all you statisticians here is information gathered from Mod Website relating to the size of the UK SH Fleet, along with the ISD / OSD No INformation relating to the 6 Danish Merlins Nor the 8 Chinook H C MK 3 that are going to be converted back to Mk 2 standard

In terms of Furure Rotor craft capbiltiy the only thing that has been actually ordered is the 40 Future Lynx. Officially MoD is still exploring options for Refurbing Seaking / Puma , going for a direct replacement or going down a COMR procurement route. But then this will only store up trouble as a bottle neck in the replacement pipeline could very well be on the way with the OSD for Chinook not forgetting that the Chinook entered service as the HC mk 1 in December 1980 and apart from the 6 MK 2A all are rebuilds from the HC MK 1s

Helicopter type Fleet size Forward Fleet ISD OSD
Apache A H MK 1 67 38 2001 2030
Chinook H C Mk 2 34 1993 2015
Chinook H C Mk 2a 6 25 2000 2025
Lynx A H Mk 7 86 60 1977 2012
Lynx A H Mk 9 23 16 1992 2012
Merlin H C Mk 3 22 15 2000 2030
Puma H C Mk 1 45 24 1971 2010
Gazelle A H Mk 1 127 52 1973 2018
Sea King H C Mk 4 37 23 1979 2012
Sea King H A S Mk 6c
5 4 2004 2008

Data for the Chinook was mereged by DASA
 
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Super Nimrod

New Member
If things got desperate, would it be possible to re-role some of the 40'ish RN ASW Merlins so that they can work for the RAF ? Presumably they are all held within the joint Helicopter Command or are they part of the RN Fleet which are separate ?

Actually I have just partially answered my own question by looking at the DASA website as it would appear the RN Fleet Helicopters are held outside JHC and includes the RN Merlins and another large batch of Lynx ASW and Various Sea Kings which are all in addition to Boltons list above

It still baffles why we need 127 Gazelles. They are the single largest group of machines above yet must provide the least utility. Presumably they are used for more than training ?
 
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Bolton Scribble

New Member
I need to explain these where figures are based on Strengths prior to lates re vamp of RAF web Site and DASA December 2006 figures

"Fleet = the total No of Aircraft
The Forward Fleet +the Actual Number of Machines with squadrons

The Figures also appear on the Defence Suppliers directory I beleieve

The Gazelles are the AH Mk 1 and are used by the Army Air Corps as observation and reconnissance helicopter along with other utility Roles. With the introduction of the Apache the AAC is reshaping and the Gazelles are being reduced in numbers. mainly with the AAC independent units. Also the RAF still utilises a single Gazelle AH mk 1 based at RAF Odiham with No.: 7 Squadron.
 
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Izzy1

Banned Member
Personally, I think the figures kindly provided by Bolton Scribble prove the following:

We have the attack helicopter strength; we have the light role sorted too in Gazelle - as dangerous as the thing is in a combat environment as proved in 1982. We are also blessed with a good quantity of heavy-lift Chinooks, despite their range limitations.

But, do we have the tactical transport capability to move at least 3 company-sized formations and supporting arms whilst operating in at least 2 different combat theatres?

I maybe wrong, but I fear not.
 
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Bolton Scribble

New Member
The thing about the shortages is that if you look at the operatinal / Forward Fleet and then you look at the difference in the numbers between the total fleet size ie 40 Chinooks but only have 25 in the Forward fleet that leaves 15 aircraft, Merlin their are seven helicopters, allowing for the two Pumas that collided in Iraq thats 19 Pumas, Seakings there are 14 HC mk 4s and a single HAS mk 6C Thats is a potential of 56 medium / Heavy Lift helicopters that could be brought out of the reserve fleet / storage, or are they in such bad shape that they can not be made to fly? Then order up aditional sirframes to re-build the reserve fleet. Is that to simplistic a view piont?
 
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Bolton Scribble

New Member
Chinook Range? The six HC Mk 2A where delivered with a strengthend forward fusealage to allow for the installation of a flight re-fuelling probe, a capability that is also available to the Merlin.

Could a Merlin or Chinook tank from a VC 10 or a Tristar? let alone an Airbus
 
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Bolton Scribble

New Member
Puma`s do not forget there was also the captured Argie Puma that was brought out of the Museum was refurbed and is now flying with 33 squadron?
 
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Izzy1

Banned Member
Could a Merlin or Chinook tank from a VC 10 or a Tristar? let alone an Airbus
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You make a valid point. And I can't see A400M tanker-types to provide for them anytime soon either.
 
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riksavage

Banned Member
I understood the helo's assigned to the SF flight can be refueled mid-air from other RAF assets, this is considered essential for deep penetration and SAR missions.
 
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Izzy1

Banned Member
The RAF certainly does not have any dedicated Hercules Tankers anymore and as Bolton says; Tristar, VC-10 and the future A330 are all very unlikely to be able to refuel at rotary-wing altitudes and speeds.

I too would hope that auxillary hose kits are available. But I would not be surprised if the MoD overlooked this requirement too.
 
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riksavage

Banned Member
A spot of good news, the UK has decided to order a 6th C17 to bolster its strategic lift, confirmed by Reuters news today. Concerns about the possible delay of the A400 could lead to additional purchases.
 
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Bolton Scribble

New Member
OK here`s an idea The Forward Active Fleet for the RAF Chinook Fleet acording to the DASA is 25 the total Chinook Fleet is 40 that leaves fifteen airframes in Reserve and if I recall the Merlin Forward Active Fleet is 15 again According to DASA which leaves Seven. So why can these not be brought into use to satisfy the immeduiate need and acquire new aairframes as attrition replacements. Or is it a case that those aircraft from the reserve fleet have been canablised that much that they will not be flying in a month of Sundays? The UK already owns these aircraft, would not have to go shopping for new and they are of a type already deployed into Afghanistan and Iraq
 
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neil

New Member
OK here`s an idea The Forward Active Fleet for the RAF Chinook Fleet acording to the DASA is 25 the total Chinook Fleet is 40 that leaves fifteen airframes in Reserve and if I recall the Merlin Forward Active Fleet is 15 again According to DASA which leaves Seven. So why can these not be brought into use to satisfy the immeduiate need and acquire new aairframes as attrition replacements. Or is it a case that those aircraft from the reserve fleet have been canablised that much that they will not be flying in a month of Sundays? The UK already owns these aircraft, would not have to go shopping for new and they are of a type already deployed into Afghanistan and Iraq
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I believe that the problem lies with operating funding.. if we can think of using these spare airframes, I'm pretty sure the UK military commanders can too..

The UK is currently operating on a peace time defence budget and has an economy thats performing well.. thus defence gets just enough to get by and the private sector lures away pilots, maintainers etc. with salaries that the military cannot match.

Obviously the Lynx fleet is large and is capable of operating in the Afhgan environment.. however their utility in the troop transport role is limited.. Its basically the same problem that the Canadian Forces face in Afghanistan with their Griffons.. thats why they havn't sent any..

I believe these two countries and a few others were wrong in their choice of helicopters during the cold war era.. and now they're paying the price of their poor choices back then.. in their defence however back then they were'nt geared to expiditionary operations like they are today..

but blaming everything on the past is not the answer.. the only answer is more funding.. The UK government recently anounced an increase in defence spending for the next Comprehensive Spending Review period.. however the increase amounts to just a little more than inflation, so even though its an increase in real terms, it simply doesn't go far enough..

Difficult choices lie ahead for the UK armed forces as far as helicopter operations are concerned.. either they buy more airframes.. or face the reality that the shortfall is here to stay for the forseeable future..

My personal opinion on where they are headed is:

Army Air Corps total fleet(2015):

40 Future Lynx
48 Apache
20 Light helo's (maybe leased EC 145's)

RAF total fleet(2015):

40 Chinook
26 Merlin
20 either upgraded Puma or a new airframe(possibly NH90)

Fleet Air Arm total fleet(2015):

30 Future Lynx
30 Merlin
20 either upgraded Sea King or a new airframe(possibly NH90)

On paper this is a much downsized fleet from the one a couple of years ago..
however it still is a significant and highly capable fleet given proper funding..

only time will tell..
 
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