The Arjun Tank
- Thread starter Jade
- Start date
Add a little more to your post so I can a add a little more to mine.
Well, mine opinion - serious effort without a doubt. It is capable modern tank build from international components (best you can aquire on free market) - but nothing exceptional. The question is however its cost and true reliability/maintainability.
Take look:
1. Gun - adequate gun, however rifled which puts doubt in its barrel wear.
2. FCS - should be fairly modern, on the current world average level.
3. Protection - little reliable info. But again, i doubt there is anything exceptional in either direction. Most likely just average level a-la M1A2.
4. Engine - good engine, however with prohibitive cost.
5. Chassis - hard to tell, probably just adequate average.
Addiditional gooddies:
1. LAHAT - again, hard to tell how effective it really is.
2. ERA/APS/Shtora-like might be installed in later batches.
Conclusion: Good starting tank for a country what didnt produced own tank before. Can be safely used in own army, however cost effectivity remains doubtfull.
Take look:
1. Gun - adequate gun, however rifled which puts doubt in its barrel wear.
2. FCS - should be fairly modern, on the current world average level.
3. Protection - little reliable info. But again, i doubt there is anything exceptional in either direction. Most likely just average level a-la M1A2.
4. Engine - good engine, however with prohibitive cost.
5. Chassis - hard to tell, probably just adequate average.
Addiditional gooddies:
1. LAHAT - again, hard to tell how effective it really is.
2. ERA/APS/Shtora-like might be installed in later batches.
Conclusion: Good starting tank for a country what didnt produced own tank before. Can be safely used in own army, however cost effectivity remains doubtfull.
For rifled maingun disadvantages you have two issues:
1. More expensive to produce.
2. Firing KE energy rounds at max effective engagement ranges.
Is there a Lahat round that is produced to fire out of Rifled 120mm mainguns?
Another problem with rifled guns is that with the UK changing to the L/55 smoothbore gun there will be no other country left which developes ammunition for rifled guns.
So every new ammunition has to be self developed.
With a 120mm smoothbore you gain access to a huge market of 120mm ammo producing countries (USA, Germany, Israel, France,...).
The same goes for a 125mm smoothbore (Russia, China,...).
So every new ammunition has to be self developed.
With a 120mm smoothbore you gain access to a huge market of 120mm ammo producing countries (USA, Germany, Israel, France,...).
The same goes for a 125mm smoothbore (Russia, China,...).
Agreed . However, there are two factors which may affect this
1 - if you have a programme large enough to support an indigenous ammunition design and manufacture base and the political will to go it alone, then going it alone means you dont have to worry about embargoes.
2 - how advanced your manufacture capability is. The Indians have been producing rifled guns and ammunition and are well versed in that technology. Building smoothbores and their ammunition is more difficult and would be new to them. They may well have taken the pragmatic view that its better to develop what they can do now rather than go for a "new" technology. All this is of course subject to change.
1 - if you have a programme large enough to support an indigenous ammunition design and manufacture base and the political will to go it alone, then going it alone means you dont have to worry about embargoes.
2 - how advanced your manufacture capability is. The Indians have been producing rifled guns and ammunition and are well versed in that technology. Building smoothbores and their ammunition is more difficult and would be new to them. They may well have taken the pragmatic view that its better to develop what they can do now rather than go for a "new" technology. All this is of course subject to change.
AFAIK India produces it's own 125 mm ammunition (FSAPDS and HE), 120mm FSAPDS, HE and HESH. Pvt. sector units such as SM Group make the combustible cartridge cases (Both 120mm and 125 mm).
Added later;
Local production of 125 mm FSAPDS started some time in 1998. In 1999, they had the capacity to produce 40,000 rounds/year.
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It is interesting that they went with one piece ammunition versus two part, thus not relying on the UK for ammunition, why not go with a 125mm gun with one part, any good reason behind India`s decision to stick with the rifled 120mm gun other than the firing of Hesh ammunition.
- my mistake, I was under the impression that the 125mm ammunition was purchased from Russia. If local manufacture is happening, then why dont they switch to smoothbore or purchase the existing 125mm tube ?
- just found the site for Indian Ordnance Factory -
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The only official reason I have heard is capability to fire HESH. Another reason may be that they don't want to change anything at this critical junction. It took some time to remove all the bugs both from Gun and FCS and it's no easy task to restart again.
Not at all, infact I noticed your post late..
India used buy Russian. Even with local manufacturing, initially they bought Russian rods. As to 125 mm tube, well it's too late in the day to change now. Why didn'y they change before? I guess they didn'y expext T-90 to make an appearence with Indian Army (They being DRDO). It looks like a combustable cartridge case is being used. Israel helped work out some of the bugs in the FCS as far as the stabilization system I was told, is there any other Israeli influence besides the ability to fire LAHAT.The only official reason I have heard is capability to fire HESH. Another reason may be that they don't want to change anything at this critical junction. It took some time to remove all the bugs both from Gun and FCS and it's no easy task to restart again.
Not at all, infact I noticed your post late..
Whats the cost comparision of the rifled 120mm versus the Russian 125mm.
I really don't have definative answers for both questions (nothing that I can back up with source).It looks like a combustable cartridge case is being used. Israel helped work out some of the bugs in the FCS as far as the stabilization system I was told, is there any other Israeli influence besides the ability to fire LAHAT.
Whats the cost comparision of the rifled 120mm versus the Russian 125mm.
There was speculation that BMS and datalink was from Israel, but later proven false, they are from BEL/Army Signal corp.
I will post some more info. on DRDO derived systems tomorrow.
Here is a infoboard on Arjun BMS
Link
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hey guys,check out this interesting link,it provides some information regarding the benefits of the fully combustible cartridges being develoed indigenously for the arjun and the other indian battle tanks.
here is the link:
http://www.smgroupindia.com/ccc.aspx
SM Group was among the first to develop and manufacture combustible catridge cases in India in association with all major wings of Ministry of Defence, namely, DRDO (Defense Research & Development Organisation), DGOF (Director General Ordnance Factories) and DGQA (Director General Quality Assurance).
S M Group has successfully productionised both Felting technology and Resin based Hot pressing technology for manufacture of Combustible Cartridge Cases for 120mm HESH & FSAPDS, 125mm FSAPDS and 155mm BMCS munitions.
Having supplied hundreds of thousands of cumbustible cartridge cases to meet specific ammunition needs of the Indian army for their main battle tank , ARJUNA and the T-72 & T-90 series of Russian guns , SM group is today one of the leading manufacturers of combustible cartridge cases as well as plant and machinery for the same.
The effort of the group in this regard have been best acknowledged by Government of India by awarding a National award for Indigenization of defense products to the parent company in the year 1998.
Advantages
Combustible cartridge cases bring numerous advantages compared with conventional metallic cases:
here is the link:
http://www.smgroupindia.com/ccc.aspx
SM Group was among the first to develop and manufacture combustible catridge cases in India in association with all major wings of Ministry of Defence, namely, DRDO (Defense Research & Development Organisation), DGOF (Director General Ordnance Factories) and DGQA (Director General Quality Assurance).
S M Group has successfully productionised both Felting technology and Resin based Hot pressing technology for manufacture of Combustible Cartridge Cases for 120mm HESH & FSAPDS, 125mm FSAPDS and 155mm BMCS munitions.
Having supplied hundreds of thousands of cumbustible cartridge cases to meet specific ammunition needs of the Indian army for their main battle tank , ARJUNA and the T-72 & T-90 series of Russian guns , SM group is today one of the leading manufacturers of combustible cartridge cases as well as plant and machinery for the same.
The effort of the group in this regard have been best acknowledged by Government of India by awarding a National award for Indigenization of defense products to the parent company in the year 1998.
Advantages
Combustible cartridge cases bring numerous advantages compared with conventional metallic cases:
- Fully combustible concept, i.e no spent cases.
- Improved crew compartment enviroment due to reduction in noxious fumes and clutter from spent metal cases.
- Total round weight reduction.
- Addithonal energy to fire.
- Incresed firing rate.
- Reduction in barrel wear.
- Compatiblity with automatic loading due to high mechanical properties.
- Contribution to charge vulnerablity reduction : lower reaction level for all types fo threats.
... they got rid of the usual steel case base? Cuz that would be new - the rest isn't really (ok, domestically for India maybe).
Looking at the picture it looks like they are designed the same as other combustible cartridge cases. Most likely still having to deal with the flash rod also that is connected to the primer.
eckherl, you have PM
Coming to barrel life, Arjun barrel has a lining of refractory metal oxides to increase barrel life by reducing thermal stress.