The French Rafale Fighter Aircraft

[10ringr]

The Rafale is a true omnirole airplane. You can always find another to be better in a particular situation. But actualy, there is no other plane that can do as well in varied situations (the f35 will). That what makes it the best plane in the world.

Your thinking is understandable but let me clear something up for you. We're talking about the best fighter in the world. We are not talking about the best ground attack, bomber, Vstol, or the space shuttle. We are however talking about the best FIGHTER. Therefore, if you want to participate in the discussion about what is the best FIGHTER then by all means entertain us. There is always going to be a tendency to compare apples and oranges that's why staying on topic is important. Have a nice day! Hutch:nutkick

Mod edit: The title of this thread is the "The French Rafale Fighter Aircraft" as such, discussion of the aircraft is relevant and on topic, discussion of the "Best" fighter is not. As a rule, discussions of "Best" equipment, aircraft, vessels, etc are not conducted due to a lack of accurate, publically available information as well as the tendency for people to advocate something without regard to fact, instead using pride and emotions.
-Preceptor

 

[metro]

I think this is the first time a first French aircraft launch and recover on a US carrier. It was a catapult-assisted launch.

that's what I understood (a Rafale M), and I don't think there's anything with Raphale/Eurofighter going on, but when this was done, it was the carriers were in "more sensitive" area than usual these days.

perhaps, just testing the rail system, but there are dry areas where that can be used for testing (i don't know if the launch/arrest systems are the same on the enterprise and Challes de Gaul). With what i've read of the different reports on future combat, it seems as if LVNs which aren't as large as the US ships will have a problem bringing even J35s and Helos, as well as troops, etc... and the conflict is usually that the "carrier" is needed offshore but is necessary to allow an offensive landing force.

It seems as if Militaries want to be on spot in "minutes." If carriers are still necessary with and offensive deployment capability, it might make sense that some are western NATO forward deployed bases... "offshore" (with the sensitivities of some states and basing problems). Then I'm guessing some older F-18s and F-16's can be sold while the JSF, Rafael (can the eurofighter land on a carrier, I really didn't think it was designed to?) and money used for sales can help offset new fighters.

i just know the USN doesn't want to man carriers all "year." so it's possible that the USN will be willing to rotate NATO forces--and then there are more bases that will come online from Europe and add more potential (Im not sure about those being nuclear carriers but based closer to a friendly port, there isn't a problem. i know about the hurdles, but it may come down to economics.

yes, i admit i'm an idiot on naval affairs, but my Dad used to say, "I call you son and that's not because you're [me] bright" so i'm now inured, and take these celestial comments as compliments! Is the glass half-full or half-empty...? It's a weapon!

In all seriousness if someone (i've read several of posts and there seems to be people who understand these "joint systems" very well--or are excellent at BSing i.e. pass right by someone grown up on SCAN and its variants).:unknown

 

[10ringr]

Your thinking is understandable but let me clear something up for you. We're talking about the best fighter in the world. We are not talking about the best ground attack, bomber, Vstol, or the space shuttle. We are however talking about the best FIGHTER. Therefore, if you want to participate in the discussion about what is the best FIGHTER then by all means entertain us. There is always going to be a tendency to compare apples and oranges that's why staying on topic is important. Have a nice day! Hutch:nutkick

Mod edit: The title of this thread is the "The French Rafale Fighter Aircraft" as such, discussion of the aircraft is relevant and on topic, discussion of the "Best" fighter is not. As a rule, discussions of "Best" equipment, aircraft, vessels, etc are not conducted due to a lack of accurate, publically available information as well as the tendency for people to advocate something without regard to fact, instead using pride and emotions.
-Preceptor

Perhaps you'd be happier if you'd just put all of your own thoughts and ideas and post them since you have to edit/comment and otherwise force your own opinion on others all while telling them they aren't entitled to their own. Since I'm sure you wouldn't allow this to be seen, I figure your the only one who will see it. The issue WE were talking about was which fighter was the best, unless you fly the Rafale, F/A 22 Eurofighter then your opinions are no more and no less valid. Hutch

 

[Grand Danois]

Perhaps you'd be happier if you'd just put all of your own thoughts and ideas and post them since you have to edit/comment and otherwise force your own opinion on others all while telling them they aren't entitled to their own. Since I'm sure you wouldn't allow this to be seen, I figure your the only one who will see it. The issue WE were talking about was which fighter was the best, unless you fly the Rafale, F/A 22 Eurofighter then your opinions are no more and no less valid. Hutch

Preceptor is moderating this thread and enforcing DT policies correctly. This is what he is meant to do, and that you are challenging him to engage in an off limits debate plus attempting a character assasination is irrelevant to that role.

I refer you to the rules of this board, which you agreed to upon becoming a member.

4. Monitoring.

We shall have the right, but not the obligation, to monitor the content of the bulletin boards to determine compliance with this Agreement and any other operating rules established by us. We shall have the right in our sole discretion to edit, refuse to post, or remove any material submitted to or posted on the bulletin boards. Without limiting the foregoing, we shall have the right to remove any material that we, in our sole discretion, find to be in violation of the provisions hereof, otherwise objectionable or stale. Notwithstanding this right, users shall remain solely responsible for the content of their messages. Each user acknowledges and agrees that neither we nor any third party content provider shall assume or have any liability for any action or inaction by us or any third party content provider with respect to any conduct, communication or posting on the bulletin boards.

I don't care to discuss this, so don't bother.

1st warning.

 

[10ringr]

Preceptor is moderating this thread and enforcing DT policies correctly. This is what he is meant to do, and that you are challenging him to engage in an off limits debate plus attempting a character assasination is irrelevant to that role.

I refer you to the rules of this board, which you agreed to upon becoming a member.

4. Monitoring.

We shall have the right, but not the obligation, to monitor the content of the bulletin boards to determine compliance with what we believe to be true regardless of the facts or others right to voice their own opinion and any other operating rules established by us. We shall have the right in our sole discretion to edit, refuse to post, or remove any material submitted to or posted on the bulletin boards if we feel we don't like you or what you think about fighter aircraft, even if you are a pilot and clearly know more then we do. Without limiting the foregoing, we shall have the right to remove any material that we, in our sole discretion, find to be in violation of the provisions hereof, otherwise objectionable or stale. Notwithstanding this right, users shall remain solely responsible for the content of their messages. Each user acknowledges and agrees that neither we nor any third party content provider shall assume or have any liability for any action or inaction by us or any third party content provider with respect to any conduct, communication or posting on the bulletin boards.

I don't care to discuss this, so don't bother.

1st warning.

I wouldn't have expected anything less. Have a nice day!

 

[Grand Danois]

DT forum rules.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php

 

[eaf-f16]

In comparison to the baseline F-16, and F-15s, you are right. But when you take an F-15K for example, you are wrong in my view. The Rafales Agility may be better yet the new F-15K can carry many more weapons of different kinds. Also, its electronics are better. Many upgrades to the regular F-15E.

And I also don't believe it is on par with the Typhoon. The Typhoon is a superior aircraft. The Rafale just isn't as good. And your right, it gives the lower model falcons a run for its money. However for the F-16I, F-16 block 60, I think the Falcons are superior here.

I don't believe an AESA quipped F-15 would be able to defeat an AESA equipped Rafael because of the LO technology integrated in the Rafael which might give it first sight-first shot-first kill on the F-15. Maybe I'm wrong I don't know much about the radars on (or planned) for the F-15 and Rafael. But WVR combat I think it would be safe to say that the Rafael would be able to defeat the F-15 almost consistently if the pilots are of the same quality. In strike mission of course the F-15E is better because it's able to carry a larger payload and I think has longer range.

I also don't think the Block 60/62 and the F-16I are better than the Rafael. The Rafael either equals the F-16's if not better in some areas. The F-16I would even the odds a bit in WVR with the Python 5.

 

[gf0012-aust]

One of the reasons why we shut down platform to platform threads is that its unrealistic having these types of discussions.

Modern warfare is about systems - its not about platform to platform.

as an example, one would think that land convoy operations are simple issues of traffic planning and organic force protection. that is not even remotely the case.

air combat is even more complex, and planes (esp the USAF/USN/USMC) operate as parts of a package that could include compass xxx, rivet xxx, tanking, AWACs, additional escorts, pre-strike PGM softening of the enemies ground package contributors, emissions harvesting etc.....

on a systems to systems basis, even the french are not going to have comparative equivalency across the package spectrum.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I don't believe an AESA quipped F-15 would be able to defeat an AESA equipped Rafael because of the LO technology integrated in the Rafael which might give it first sight-first shot-first kill on the F-15. Maybe I'm wrong I don't know much about the radars on (or planned) for the F-15 and Rafael. But WVR combat I think it would be safe to say that the Rafael would be able to defeat the F-15 almost consistently if the pilots are of the same quality. In strike mission of course the F-15E is better because it's able to carry a larger payload and I think has longer range.

I also don't think the Block 60/62 and the F-16I are better than the Rafael. The Rafael either equals the F-16's if not better in some areas. The F-16I would even the odds a bit in WVR with the Python 5.

The radar capabilities are subjective and it would be hard to compare detection ranges of the two. You would be safe to assume the F15's APG 63 (v) 3 AESA would be more capable than its french counterpart for two reasons, the US has more experiance with AESA's than anyone else and also has the most advanced models (APG 79) and the F15 can hold a biger radar than the Rafael which allways helps. So its detection range v RCS and it would be hard to judge who would see who first since we dont know the exact RCS of the platforms involved and we dont know the exact capabilities of the radars envolved. But in a head on BVR engagement if the F15 was equiped with the AIM120D it would hold the missile advantage, as MICA has a similer range to AIM120C. So in BVR i would give the F15 the advantage because of its RADAR, missile and kinematic performance. That doesent mean it would win every time but just that it holds an advantage.

As for as WVR i dont see anyone being able to defeat someone else consistently, given the capabilities of the missile systems envolved. The AIM 9X is lethal and capable of very high off broadsight shots and in combination with a JHMCS it would be the equal of most platforms in most situations. The Rafael would be able to point their nose quicker than the F15 and therefore would be able to get its weapons on target quicker so i would give it the advantage in WVR, again this does not mean it would win every time but it just holds the advantage.

And i'm not sure why you think the Python 5 is so much more capable than the AIM 9x.

Again in reality you woldn't see a one on one encounter so if you wanted to compare platforms you would have to compare which one would best fit your particular force structure.

 

[eaf-f16]

The radar capabilities are subjective and it would be hard to compare detection ranges of the two. You would be safe to assume the F15's APG 63 (v) 3 AESA would be more capable than its french counterpart for two reasons, the US has more experiance with AESA's than anyone else and also has the most advanced models (APG 79) and the F15 can hold a biger radar than the Rafael which allways helps. So its detection range v RCS and it would be hard to judge who would see who first since we dont know the exact RCS of the platforms involved and we dont know the exact capabilities of the radars envolved. But in a head on BVR engagement if the F15 was equiped with the AIM120D it would hold the missile advantage, as MICA has a similer range to AIM120C. So in BVR i would give the F15 the advantage because of its RADAR, missile and kinematic performance. That doesent mean it would win every time but just that it holds an advantage.

You're excluding the LO tech of the Rafael and the F-15's large RCS as major factors in a BVR engagement. I'm also not sure about the AIM-120D being in service. It's important to note that Rafael can be equipped with both the AMRAAM and the Meteor which has a ram-jet engine like the AIM-120D .

As for as WVR i dont see anyone being able to defeat someone else consistently, given the capabilities of the missile systems envolved. The AIM 9X is lethal and capable of very high off broadsight shots and in combination with a JHMCS it would be the equal of most platforms in most situations. The Rafael would be able to point their nose quicker than the F15 and therefore would be able to get its weapons on target quicker so i would give it the advantage in WVR, again this does not mean it would win every time but it just holds the advantage.

I believe that the Rafael has a HMS from Thales and can be equipped with the AIM-132 ASRAAM and and the AIM-9X it self so I would still put the Rafael ahead of the F-15 in WVR.

And i'm not sure why you think the Python 5 is so much more capable than the AIM 9x.

I'm not sure where I wrote that the "Python 5 is so much more capable than the AIM 9x" but SRAAM technology is where the Israelis truly shine. I don't think the performance differences between the AIM-9X and Python 5 are that great but I do think think the Python 5's range and seeker are better than that of the AIM-9X (or any other SRAAM for that matter). I don't think that the Block 60/62 F-16's are going to be equipped with the AIM-9X I believe the UAE is planning for the AIM-132 ASRAAM instead I'm not sure, but they ordered their F-16's compatible with it.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

You're excluding the LO tech of the Rafael and the F-15's large RCS as major factors in a BVR engagement. I'm also not sure about the AIM-120D being in service. It's important to note that Rafael can be equipped with both the AMRAAM and the Meteor which has a ram-jet engine like the AIM-120D .

The rafale doesn't have LO, that emplies a comprehensive Low Observable technology, it may have some features to reduce the frontal RCS of the aircraft but that desent mean its LO. And i did state that in my earlier post which you quoted, i believe i did state the teh radar performance AND the frontal RCS of the two platforms. AIM 120D is not in service but it will be next year but it doesnt have a ramjet, its the same basic motor just a slow burn variant i think.

I believe that the Rafael has a HMS from Thales and can be equipped with the AIM-132 ASRAAM and and the AIM-9X it self so I would still put the Rafael ahead of the F-15 in WVR.

You stated the rafale would win consitantly, which given the capabilities of the missiles envolved is not reasonable IMO. If the rafale is equiped with ASRAAM then i would give it the advantage due to its increased range. If it is not equiped with ASRAAm then i give the F15 the advantage.

I'm not sure where I wrote that the "Python 5 is so much more capable than the AIM 9x" but SRAAM technology is where the Israelis truly shine. I don't think the performance differences between the AIM-9X and Python 5 are that great but I do think think the Python 5's range and seeker are better than that of the AIM-9X (or any other SRAAM for that matter). I don't think that the Block 60/62 F-16's are going to be equipped with the AIM-9X I believe the UAE is planning for the AIM-132 ASRAAM instead I'm not sure, but they ordered their F-16's compatible with it.

You stated that the F16I would even the odds because it is equiped with the Python 5 and therefore not with the AIM 9X. That would emply that it is desisively more capable. As for its "better seeker", IIRC they both use Focal Plane array seeker, the countermeasures may be a bit different but thats hardly desisive. The only desisive thing is the range of the missiles.

 

[eaf-f16]

The rafale doesn't have LO, that emplies a comprehensive Low Observable technology, it may have some features to reduce the frontal RCS of the aircraft but that desent mean its LO. And i did state that in my earlier post which you quoted, i believe i did state the teh radar performance AND the frontal RCS of the two platforms. AIM 120D is not in service but it will be next year but it doesnt have a ramjet, its the same basic motor just a slow burn variant i think.


You stated the rafale would win consitantly, which given the capabilities of the missiles envolved is not reasonable IMO. If the rafale is equiped with ASRAAM then i would give it the advantage due to its increased range. If it is not equiped with ASRAAm then i give the F15 the advantage.


You stated that the F16I would even the odds because it is equiped with the Python 5 and therefore not with the AIM 9X. That would emply that it is desisively more capable. As for its "better seeker", IIRC they both use Focal Plane array seeker, the countermeasures may be a bit different but thats hardly desisive. The only desisive thing is the range of the missiles.

It really dosen't matter whether the Rafael employs comprehnsive LO tech or not the fact remains that it RCS is very small compared to the F-15's which would put it at an advantage in BVR and it's important to not that most F-15's don't have AESA's but (IIRC) AESA's are planned for all of the Rafael's in service with the French Air Force.

As for WVR combat there is practically no reason for the Rafael not win in every dogfight with an F-15 even if the F-15 has better missile simply because it's a lot more manueverable than the F-15.

And as for the Python 5 vs. AIM-9X aurguement, the Python 5 (and the HMS that accompenies it) is the most advanced in the world (ask any one). But still the Rafael's more manueverable than the F-16. If it were an Israeli pilot vs. a French pilot the Rafael would get murdered IMO.

 

[Satorian]

It really dosen't matter whether the Rafael employs comprehnsive LO tech or not the fact remains that it RCS is very small compared to the F-15's which would put it at an advantage in BVR [...]

Depends. The missile engagement range figures in here.

It would not matter much for the PK if the Rafale spotted the F-15 120nm out, and the F-15 the Rafale only 70nm out, if both had to close to 50-60nm to reach Rmax (where kinetic advantages would play a role again).

 

[10ringr]

One of the reasons why we shut down platform to platform threads is that its unrealistic having these types of discussions.

Modern warfare is about systems - its not about platform to platform.

as an example, one would think that land convoy operations are simple issues of traffic planning and organic force protection. that is not even remotely the case.

air combat is even more complex, and planes (esp the USAF/USN/USMC) operate as parts of a package that could include compass xxx, rivet xxx, tanking, AWACs, additional escorts, pre-strike PGM softening of the enemies ground package contributors, emissions harvesting etc.....

on a systems to systems basis, even the french are not going to have comparative equivalency across the package spectrum.

By God I think you do understand what you're talking about! Hutch

 

[MarcH]

I would like to add some comments. First of all, it is Rafale, not Rafael, which is an Israeli arms company.
Concerning the helmets. The originally planned Gerfaut helmet from SAGEM has been dropped for Rafale F3. There ist no replacement at hand right now. For exports there are Thales (Topsight-E) and Israeli helmets on offer.
By the way, I think this comparison is somewhat inaccurate. There are no publications available about the performance of the EW Systems. Therefore, I would think it is impossible to judge which platform has the upper hand in BVR, even if complete radar data would be available.

 

[Scorpion82]

BTW the Rafale uses the MICA IR not AIM-9X or ASRAAM. The MICA IR is both a WVR and BVR weapon. It uses an IIR seeker, INS and datalink. It has TVC and a similar range as the EM variant with ARH.
It is worth noting that neither the AN/APG-63(V3) nor the RBE2 AA are in service. Believing that the US systems will be better is nice, but not a must.
As MarcH stated above the aircraft is called Rafale.
In my opinion a 1 vs 1 comparison is the most fair thing you can do, of course one should never forget that it's unlikely that an aircraft operates alone.

 

[eaf-f16]

Mod edit:

Once again you are not supporting your claims. Start providing SOME sort of evidence behind these outlandish claims of yours or a ban will be applied once more.
BTW it's Rafale. Even a cursory Google search would have told you that which means you are either making up these claims of yours off the top of your head, half remembering things or seeking to bait people.

First and final warning.

No what I don't like is repetitive one-liners that add no substance to a debate and continuous unsupported claims. Both are against the principles of the site here and are not tolerated for long, as you have been warned about.

Complaining about mods doesn't get you far either. In fact it's about the quickest way I can think of to get yourself permanently banned.

Take the hint my friend.

Regards

AD.

 

[Scorpion82]

The Rafael (not Rafale, someone else got it wrong again), can use both the AIM-9x and the ASRAAM becuase they're compatible it can also use the Meteor and AMRAAM as BVR missiles becuase they're compatible. Anyways lets not let this turn this into a Platform A vs. Platform B thread.

Mod edit: It's been sorted.

Its Rafale not Rafael. Just check out all the official sites from dassault, french MoD, AdA etc.. You are definitely wrong on that.
The Rafale can't use the AIM-9X, ASRAAM or AMRAAM as these weapons are not integrated into the aircraft. You can integrate them, but this hasn't been done. The Meteor is not yet integrated either as it is still under development!

 

[eaf-f16]

Mod edit: It's been sorted.

Its Rafale not Rafael. Just check out all the official sites from dassault, french MoD, AdA etc.. You are definitely wrong on that.
The Rafale can't use the AIM-9X, ASRAAM or AMRAAM as these weapons are not integrated into the aircraft. You can integrate them, but this hasn't been done. The Meteor is not yet integrated either as it is still under development!

I just meant that the Rafale can integrate them I didn't mean that they already had them on it. Anyways I apologize for misspelling the Rafale's name and saying you misspelled it. Learn to keep your anger in check in the future .

 

[swerve]

The Rafael (not Rafale, someone else got it wrong again), ...

Rafale -

1 rafale Noun, feminine (a) gust of wind, rain, flurry of snow, burst of gunfire, hail of bullets

http://www.french-linguistics.co.uk/dictionary/

Usually translated into English as squall, a word most often used in maritime contexts.

"squall (STRONG WIND)
noun [C]
a sudden strong wind or brief storm:
Violent squalls signalled the approach of the hurricane."

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/