Nuclear Subs

[falcon2k7]

The main advantage of Virginia over Seawolf is the crew size and therefore cheaper to deploy over time. As far as silence, etc. I have no clue. I've not really followed the development that closely. The ship was designed mainly to keep the shipyards open producing nuclear powered ships from my understanding.

Still the new German 212 sub is quite nifty. Still they can remain submerged for a month where as the US/UK nuclear subs can remain underwater until the food runs out.

Someone was mentioning the French active sonar...well active sonar on a submarine is not a very good option. Takes away from the platform's best weapon: stealth.

All things being equal, I'm going to have to still say Seawolf. It maybe a relic of the Cold War, but as more countries build SSBN's, we could see it's old mission return: kill the enemy sub with the ballistic missiles.

 

[Todjaeger]

O.K.

1) I hear the Astute's propulsion makes it quieter than a baby Dolphin !!

So, how can you detect it ?

2) The Astute's speed is 20 knots, so for it's size it's the fastest sub as well !!!

3) So, if Subs are undetectable, then who is to say whose nuclear missile targeted this or that country ?
This could mean total confusion and total war - as Castro said !?

Can anyone answer that pls ?

Okay, here's my response.

1) :unknown Just don't know

2) I consider this number suspect at best. Soviet (and Russian) Alpha-class SSN with liquid-metal (bismuth IIRC) reactors were listed at times with max speeds of 45+ knts when dived. I've also heard unofficially that USN 688/Los Angeles-class SSNs could equal or exceed that. Another thing to remember is then when a sub is submerged, there is a limit to the max speed it can move at without causing cavitation. IIRC that limit is usually around 18 kts (could be off though, not ex-Navy or anything) anything past that causes the cavitation as mentioned which then increases the acoustic signature of the sub dramatically.

3) Subs might not be able to be detected prior to missile launch, depending on locations of enemy subs and/or ASW assets. That doesn't mean which nation fired the BM couldn't be identified though. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the BM flight profiles are known, things like overall size, rate of acceleration, thermal signature, etc. So even if there is an unexpected launch it might only be a matter of minutes before it is determined who did it, and where the missile is heading.

-Cheers

 

[Jade]

India yesterday anounced it was ready to deploy a Nuclear Capable Submarine missile called Sagarika.

What news of it anyone ?

Is it really good ?

What is it's range a payload ?

 

[Izzy1]

India yesterday anounced it was ready to deploy a Nuclear Capable Submarine missile called Sagarika.

What news of it anyone ?

Is it really good ?

What is it's range a payload ?

Development began around 1991, originally borrowing heavily from Prithvi I technology. Around 1996, the DRDO actually claimed the project terminated as India began concentrating on PJ-10 Brahmos development and explored the purchase of the SS-N-27 "Club".

However, it seems development did indeed continue with drastic increases in range being demanded (2,000 Km+), unclear if these have been achieved however. Janes Underwater Warfare Systems claims prototypes only had a 300km range - similar to the SS-N-27.

Warhead weight is estimated at 500kg conventional or a low-yield nuclear, with an accuracy CEP of 30 to 50 meters.

 

[zetruz]

Someone was mentioning the French active sonar...well active sonar on a submarine is not a very good option. Takes away from the platform's best weapon: stealth.

Yes, but it can be used very effectively as a last resort, especially against other subs.
Because if you have been found, and there's maybe even a torpedo in the water - and you still don't know where it came from - it's probably the best thing to do.

 

[Jade]

Development began around 1991, originally borrowing heavily from Prithvi I technology. Around 1996, the DRDO actually claimed the project terminated as India began concentrating on PJ-10 Brahmos development and explored the purchase of the SS-N-27 "Club".

However, it seems development did indeed continue with drastic increases in range being demanded (2,000 Km+), unclear if these have been achieved however. Janes Underwater Warfare Systems claims prototypes only had a 300km range - similar to the SS-N-27.

Warhead weight is estimated at 500kg conventional or a low-yield nuclear, with an accuracy CEP of 30 to 50 meters.

O.K.

What is the pecking order of Submarine Fleets in the world and in Asia ?

Submarines only.

The US may be the best Submarine builder and deployer in the world.

Next, Russia ?

3rd France ?

4th UK ?

5th ?

In Asia
------
1st China ?

2nd India ?


Who can answer that ?

 

[f-22fan12]

O.K.

What is the pecking order of Submarine Fleets in the world and in Asia ?

Submarines only.

The US may be the best Submarine builder and deployer in the world.

Next, Russia ?

3rd France ?

4th UK ?

5th ?

In Asia
------
1st China ?

2nd India ?


Who can answer that ?

The U.S. is first

2. U.K. They have great experience in submarines with great crews and ships. They have had many classes of great SSN's and used one to sink a ship in the Falklands war. The new Asutes are great as well.

3. Russians. great new AIP subs + Akulas and Typhoon. Suffer from lack of funding.

4. French. They have had only one class of SSN so they aren't that experienced. But good SSBNs.

ASIA.

1. China. Song, Yuan diesel-electric + Han and Xia class. Also Kilo including the improved Kilo versions AND new type 093+094 SSN and SSBN

2. Japan. Long line of good subs. Yushio, Harushio, and now Oyashio. All built in big numbers. Large amounts of high quality and high capability subs. Good crew training as well b/c cooperation exercises with the U.S.N.

3. India Kilo+ type 209s. New Scorpenes with AIP

4. Australia. Collins class are among the best diesel electric around.

 

[nero]

.

france is not far off from the U.S.A.

in a decade french SSNs will be as good as that of U.S.A



.

 

[Waylander]

Are you both talking about shipbuilding (subbuilding) capabilities?

If yes it is a little bit interesting to see India in the list with originally russian and german build subs.
Collins is as well not an indigineous design but swedish even if the Aussies cleared the flaws of the design on their own.
And when I look at commercial success the Brits don't look that impressive while others look much better.
Spain is entering the market and you left germany aside which has a long (and successfull) line of exporting and developing subs.

And one should differ between nuclear and non nuclear sub builders.

For example when it comes to nuclear subs the US for very good in R&D as well as building capacities.
But on the other side their current SSK building capabilities are near to zero.

 

[B.Smitty]

Hi Guys,
Could someone pls tell me the difference between a Coastal Sub like the Scorpene Sub that France is building for India and Britains Nuclear Attack Sub the Astute ?

What other types of Subs are there in the nuclear arena ?


I hear the propulsion system for the Astute is unique - just how much ?

Any news on the India ATV ?

Thnx

FYI, the author Joe Buff wrote an essay with thoughts on the drawbacks of SSKs vis-a-vis SSNs here,

"Diesel-AIPs: Low Displacement as a Weakness"

http://www.joebuff.com/essay01.htm

His site has a fair number of interesting submarine-related articles and is worth checking out, IMHO.

 

[zetruz]

Waylander:
I agree completely. Germany was known to be the submarine-building country. They have new AIP subs which should be about as good as Sweden's, right?

 

[Waylander]

The AIP is said to be better.
And Kockums now belongs to HDW.

 

[f-22fan12]

I thinks the Germans make the best conventional subs around. They are great at engineering.

 

[Chrom]

The AIP is said to be better.
And Kockums now belongs to HDW.

The hull itself (AIP, stealth) german sub is most likely the best or one of.
For SSK weapon package i'll say russians are still unmatched.

Besides, active sonar is very important addidion to any sub. They allow to imploy varios tactic to detect enemy subs. Some examples:

1. Your sub know what enemy sub is around and possible follow it. Active sonar can clear all the doubts and surprise the enemy.
2. SSN + SSBN composition when SSN or SSK guard SSBN. The SSN or SSK can use active sonar to make sure what enemy sub dont follow SSBN.
3. Seeking enemy sub when operating under friendly protection.
4. Seeking enemy sub what lie on the ground or just hang deep in water. In that case sub useally dont produce any sound and can be detected only by active sonar.

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

I'm very doubtful about the use of active sonar onboard submarine. If they are of any use, that would only be on extra fast submarine, like the alpha class, and certainly not on SSKs...

What's the strenght of SSK? Their silence and ability to operate in shallow water. Pinging will just give away the sub position to anyone in a great radius, and for a SSK unable to sustain high speed, that means death.

1. Certainly active sonar can surprise the ennemy, but that means that you have already catch the ennemy sub on passive array, so active is useless and reveal your position to other platform in the environment. Pinging away in a sub with no passive contact is suicide.

2.3.4.That is the job of surface ASW ships. The extremely low frequency VDS is much more desirable in that role because it can bring much more power at the ideal depth than any sub's active hull array.

 

[Todjaeger]

I'm very doubtful about the use of active sonar onboard submarine. If they are of any use, that would only be on extra fast submarine, like the alpha class, and certainly not on SSKs...

What's the strenght of SSK? Their silence and ability to operate in shallow water. Pinging will just give away the sub position to anyone in a great radius, and for a SSK unable to sustain high speed, that means death.

1. Certainly active sonar can surprise the ennemy, but that means that you have already catch the ennemy sub on passive array, so active is useless and reveal your position to other platform in the environment. Pinging away in a sub with no passive contact is suicide.

2.3.4.That is the job of surface ASW ships. The extremely low frequency VDS is much more desirable in that role because it can bring much more power at the ideal depth than any sub's active hull array.

I'd have to diagree, active sonar definately has it's place on subs. As indicated in point 1 though, it is in support of passive sonar arrays. It (or is becoming :unknown ) US practice to use active sonar on the attack subs to locate enemy subs. This I believe is being adopted as a result of the disemination of conventional sub technology, allowing more users to start operating very quiet diesels. My understanding is that some SSK designs, when operating on batteries or some AIP systems, make so little noise that even with the passive arrays, US sub crews are unaware of them. Hence the development of tactics to make more use of active sonar since that relies less upon acoustic emanations from the target.

-Cheers

 

[Jade]

Are you both talking about shipbuilding (subbuilding) capabilities?

If yes it is a little bit interesting to see India in the list with originally russian and german build subs.
Collins is as well not an indigineous design but swedish even if the Aussies cleared the flaws of the design on their own.
And when I look at commercial success the Brits don't look that impressive while others look much better.
Spain is entering the market and you left germany aside which has a long (and successfull) line of exporting and developing subs.

And one should differ between nuclear and non nuclear sub builders.

For example when it comes to nuclear subs the US for very good in R&D as well as building capacities.
But on the other side their current SSK building capabilities are near to zero.

Well, India is building an aircraft carrier called ATV.

It does build detroyers of world class - so they claim !!

In subs, they are building Scorpenes with French assistance.

And, they have a nuclear sub well on it's way to completion !!

Who can elaborate on that then ?

 

[kinggodzilla87]

The U.S. is first

2. U.K. They have great experience in submarines with great crews and ships. They have had many classes of great SSN's and used one to sink a ship in the Falklands war. The new Asutes are great as well.

3. Russians. great new AIP subs + Akulas and Typhoon. Suffer from lack of funding.

4. French. They have had only one class of SSN so they aren't that experienced. But good SSBNs.

ASIA.

1. China. Song, Yuan diesel-electric + Han and Xia class. Also Kilo including the improved Kilo versions AND new type 093+094 SSN and SSBN

2. Japan. Long line of good subs. Yushio, Harushio, and now Oyashio. All built in big numbers. Large amounts of high quality and high capability subs. Good crew training as well b/c cooperation exercises with the U.S.N.

3. India Kilo+ type 209s. New Scorpenes with AIP

4. Australia. Collins class are among the best diesel electric around.

What about Japans 2900t class submarine
This is a new class of diesel-electric submarine being built in Japan for use by the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force. It is believed to be an evolved form of the Oyashio class submarine, currently the latest type of conventionally-powered submarine operated by the JMSDF, and it will have a larger displacement than any previous class of submarine used by Japan.

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

I'd have to diagree, active sonar definately has it's place on subs. As indicated in point 1 though, it is in support of passive sonar arrays. It (or is becoming ) US practice to use active sonar on the attack subs to locate enemy subs.

I was rather talking about active sonar on SSK that are unable to sustain high speed, but in the case of USN submarines, there speed and thus evading capability make them able to use active sonar.
But from a french viewpoint, I'm still doubtful about these tactics.

 

[f-22fan12]

What about Japans 2900t class submarine
This is a new class of diesel-electric submarine being built in Japan for use by the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force. It is believed to be an evolved form of the Oyashio class submarine, currently the latest type of conventionally-powered submarine operated by the JMSDF, and it will have a larger displacement than any previous class of submarine used by Japan.

The 2,900 ton class is not in service yet.