Nuclear Subs

[Todjaeger]

what will be interesting is the future design of this class. at the moment, acoustically it would be less acoustically efficient than some of the others around (esp those with the seawolf/virgina/212-4 hull type mods)

the other thing will be whether they elect to go to a St Georges Cross...

Speaking in general (very general) terms, in a modern sub, how much of an effect does the hull shaping have on acoustic signature? My understanding was that for most of the newer diesel-electric and some AIP subs, they were quieter than nuke boats due to fewer moving parts/machinery while submerged. Hence my interest in the Oyashio-class hull being less efficient than other types of sub hulls. I would assume that while the hull might be less efficient acoustically compared to a Virginia-class, an Oyashio (when operating on batteries) has a lower overall acoustic signature. Is this a generally correct assumption, or am I wildly off?

-Cheers

 

[crobato]

Are those real pictures, or computer generated. I already have visited the site before and regularly check for news, but I didn't check today. They pictures look real.

So if they are real, they are the first public pictures of the type 093
Thanks

Its actually a video clip being displayed in the exhibition hall honoring the PLA's 80th Anniversary. So what you have these is a sub moving in the water. What you see are second hand images, people taking pictures of the video screen. A lot of pics from that exhibition--people taking pics of the posters, models, etc,. are surfacing all over the net. Some of the other stuff are equally as mind blowing.

* The updated H-6H bomber carrying two KD-63 cruise missiles, one apparently tV guided, the other radar guided.

* Pics of the J-11B now in serial construction, including two seaters.

* model of the J-10 with a FLIR/IT pod.

* On this one the neocons are going to have a major field day, the revealing of two new MRBM types, now in the testing stage; the DF-25, probably the only MRBM with MIRV, and the DF-15B, which has control fins on the payload section, suggesting flight control in the terminal phase, implying terminal guidance involved. I'm pretty sure the latter is going to feed China threat articles for months and potentially the biggest thing since the ASAT test.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Speaking in general (very general) terms, in a modern sub, how much of an effect does the hull shaping have on acoustic signature? My understanding was that for most of the newer diesel-electric and some AIP subs, they were quieter than nuke boats due to fewer moving parts/machinery while submerged. Hence my interest in the Oyashio-class hull being less efficient than other types of sub hulls. I would assume that while the hull might be less efficient acoustically compared to a Virginia-class, an Oyashio (when operating on batteries) has a lower overall acoustic signature. Is this a generally correct assumption, or am I wildly off?

-Cheers

Its actually not an easy task trying to simplify this. signature management is all about controlling acoustics at likely operating parameters. each navy may well have a different type of doctrine based on their platforms resources and capability, rather than it based on preferred doctrine over riding boat management.

a sub is basically a transducer, one of the twists of acoustic and signal management is that larger subs can actually be more efficient managers of their acoustics as the larger vessel is able to "absorb" it through having larger real estate being displaced. it thus makes managing specific noise and vibration hot spots easier as they are less likely to be pronounced anyway (all things being equal).

I am speaking in really broad generalities for a reason though, so you'll have to appreciate my reticence in being specific about how and what is done to manage a subs signature.

if you look at very recent sub designs like virginia, seawolf, modified collins, 212/214, astute, they have some common design denominators - and thats also due to those navies having similar doctrine or handling procedures.

subs like the kilos, current oyashios, upholders/victorias, 209's also have similar design features - and those design features mean (and I'm again going to broad stroke brush an example) that if they were compared to the former group at the same operational speed in a given environment, then they would be noisier. that may be in the order of 5decibels at a given speed and depth in a given location (but for comparative purposes a common body of water so as to make all things relatively equal). 5 decibels will get you killed if you have a smart operator listening in at the other end.

its really hard to give a meaningful discourse on this in the public domain, so I apologise if this is going in circles a bit, but sig management involves more than hull shape - but the hull shape in itself contributes to how much that sub begins to act like a transducer per se.

the other thing that has to be considered when people get excited about conventional "kills" on USN assets is that those events happen under whats referred to as a partial prosecution - ie the USN assets are running under handicapped conditions where they don't actually employ fully or properly their range of capability. sub warfare training events and ASW training events are very similar in a fashion to DACT, its not geared to get a winner or a loser, its geared to force a series of likely stages so as to get either blue or red team to trigger probable reactions so as to test responses. A partial prosecution is not in any shape fashion or form indicative of the prosecuting or defending teams real world capability.

 

[f-22fan12]

gf0012-aust, thanks alot for the info. I didn't know alot of it.
I have one other question, Which do you think is better, the typ212 or type 214. I know the type 214 is supposed to be improved, be able to launch missiles and dive deeper, but do you think the Germans removed the hi-tech/secret systems before selling it?

Thanks

 

[gf0012-aust]

but do you think the Germans removed the hi-tech/secret systems before selling it?

you only sell what you don't need, or what you know how to backdoor or break...

nobody sells tipping point technology unless they've got a solution to neutralise it

 

[Waylander]

Naaaah, I would not be sure if our government and industry works in such a rational way...

 

[f-22fan12]

you only sell what you don't need, or what you know how to backdoor or break...

nobody sells tipping point technology unless they've got a solution to neutralise it

Russians, never sell things they don't need. They sell things they need. They also sell things better than the things they have. (sukhoi MKI)

So does that mean the type 212 is better than the type 214?

I also hear that the stealthy hull shape of the type 212 is one of the best around? I believe it.

Does anyone know how much a type 212 or 214 or Oyashio class submarine costs? I would like to compare it to the cost of other subs.

Thanks

 

[Truculent]

The British government gave the Russians jet engine technology after WW2-but I am still looking for the reason why.
If you sold a cutting edge platform you probably wouldn't put your best kit in it.You also may not even supply it fully operational with a trained crew and you would probably have a sound signature of the platform to keep in the back of your draw.The German submarines supplied to Argentina in the early 1980s didn't make much of an impression did they!!

 

[XaNDeR]

Russians, never sell things they don't need. They sell things they need. They also sell things better than the things they have. (sukhoi MKI)

So does that mean the type 212 is better than the type 214?

I also hear that the stealthy hull shape of the type 212 is one of the best around? I believe it.

Does anyone know how much a type 212 or 214 or Oyashio class submarine costs? I would like to compare it to the cost of other subs.

Thanks

Your wrong bud , Indian Su-30Mki's are with akash anti air missiles
Russians dont sell and wont sell their top missiles like the new R-77M1 , until they make something better , so the Su-30Mki's manevrability can be better than a Mig-35 , or an upgraded Russian Su-27 , but it still has no chance in BVR.


Ok about the Type 212 and 214 , they both have the same speeds , the type 214 has a bigger diving depth , different electronics , afaik better .
The 214 has location of the diving planes on the forward part of the hull rather than the conning tower...
The type 214 is more armed , including the harpoon anti ship missiles it has.
It also has more conventional control surfaces (horizontal and vertical elements rather than an X-configuration)..
So all in all , yes I would say the type 214 is more effective as the 212.

 

[Jade]

India Inducts Submarine Based Nuclear Capable Sagarika Ballistic Missile


Dated 7/7/2007
Printer Friendly Subscribe
Television news channel 'CNN-IBN' reports that India has inducted the Sagarika SLBM - Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile - into the Armed Forces.

With the induction of Sagarika, India has completed the triad of India's nuclear weapons delivery systems. This was made known at a Defence Research and Development Organisation function in New Delhi on Saturday where the team responsible for the development of the Sagarika was felicitated.

Sources say the Sagarika has a range of 1,000 km and has been accepted for induction by the Navy. The missile is likely to be installed on the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV). ATV is the indigenous nuclear-powered submarine that is expected to be launched next year.

This report is yet to be confirmed by Indian Navy or Ministry of Defence sources

=======
Well, what do you think of that ?

Are the chinese much better than this and by how much ????

 

[f-22fan12]

The British government gave the Russians jet engine technology after WW2-but I am still looking for the reason why.
If you sold a cutting edge platform you probably wouldn't put your best kit in it.You also may not even supply it fully operational with a trained crew and you would probably have a sound signature of the platform to keep in the back of your draw.The German submarines supplied to Argentina in the early 1980s didn't make much of an impression did they!!

I learned that the British gave away their new jet engines to the Russians right after WWII as an act of friendship on a show about airplanes. It was the stupidest thing they could have done.

Did you know that the Mig-15 the "great soviet fighter" in Korea was powered by a pirated version of the British engine. This shows that the mig 15 really isn't that good of a plane.

 

[f-22fan12]

Your wrong bud , Indian Su-30Mki's are with akash anti air missiles
Russians dont sell and wont sell their top missiles like the new R-77M1 , until they make something better , so the Su-30Mki's manevrability can be better than a Mig-35 , or an upgraded Russian Su-27 , but it still has no chance in BVR.


Ok about the Type 212 and 214 , they both have the same speeds , the type 214 has a bigger diving depth , different electronics , afaik better .
The 214 has location of the diving planes on the forward part of the hull rather than the conning tower...
The type 214 is more armed , including the harpoon anti ship missiles it has.
It also has more conventional control surfaces (horizontal and vertical elements rather than an X-configuration)..
So all in all , yes I would say the type 214 is more effective as the 212.

I still believe that the Russians sell more advanced things than they have themselves. They are so desperate for money. (at least before oil) Your right about the missiles though. They sell the improved Kilo class subs and improved Sovernmeny destroyers (I don't know how to spell it) to China.

From the figures, the type 214 is better, yet I remember reading somewhere that the type 212 has special tiles on the hull that the Germans didn't export.

 

[riksavage]

Nothing to do with Nuclear Submarines, but!

The MiG-15 remains one of the first successful swept-wing jet fighters it outclassed all enemy fighters in Korea except the F-86 Sabre.

According to wikipedia: "To Stalin's amazement, the British Labour government and its pro-Soviet Minister of Trade, Sir Stafford Cripps, were perfectly willing to provide technical information and a license to manufacture the Rolls-Royce Nene centrifugal-flow jet engine, a move which even Russian sources have mocked. This engine was reverse-engineered and produced as the Soviet Klimov RD-45 jet engine, subsequently incorporated into the MiG-15. Rolls-Royce later attempted to claim £207 million in license fees, but without success."

Stafford Cripps should have been hung for treason, bloody left-wing labour Governments!

 

[Falstaff]

From the figures, the type 214 is better, yet I remember reading somewhere that the type 212 has special tiles on the hull that the Germans didn't export.

I guess you're talking about the antimagnetic steel hull the U 212 has and the U 214 hasn't.
If you compare the 212 and 214 designs you'll find out they have some basic design differences. The U 214 basically is an evolved 209 using tech from the U 212 design. The U 212 has (as gf pointed out) a much more advanced hydrodynamic shape and it es smaller.
It was developed to match the German navy's needs and later on was adopted to the Italian navy's needs. So it wasn't meant to be a big ocean-going boat, other than the 209-based 214. Compact design, excellent depth-steering capabilities in shallow waters (Baltic Sea) and silence were much more important than great depths and endurance.
Plus: Much of the features the 214 has and the 212 doesn't origins from the fact that the 214 is a newer design than the late 80's vintage 212, e.g. improved fuel cells and optronic mast. These features however are planned for the second batch of 212s for the German navy.

So I don't think you can say one is better than the other, they are different. But one thing I'm sure about: Despite Waylander's justified doubts I'm very sure there are a couple of things we're not ready to sell except to our closest allies, e.g. the Italians.

Hi, Folks, sorry for not contributing some weeks. Been ill for a while. But now I'm back

 

[f-22fan12]

Nothing to do with Nuclear Submarines, but!

The MiG-15 remains one of the first successful swept-wing jet fighters it outclassed all enemy fighters in Korea except the F-86 Sabre.

According to wikipedia: "To Stalin's amazement, the British Labour government and its pro-Soviet Minister of Trade, Sir Stafford Cripps, were perfectly willing to provide technical information and a license to manufacture the Rolls-Royce Nene centrifugal-flow jet engine, a move which even Russian sources have mocked. This engine was reverse-engineered and produced as the Soviet Klimov RD-45 jet engine, subsequently incorporated into the MiG-15. Rolls-Royce later attempted to claim £207 million in license fees, but without success."

Stafford Cripps should have been hung for treason, bloody left-wing labour Governments!

I agree. Thanks for explaining.

 

[f-22fan12]

I guess you're talking about the antimagnetic steel hull the U 212 has and the U 214 hasn't.
If you compare the 212 and 214 designs you'll find out they have some basic design differences. The U 214 basically is an evolved 209 using tech from the U 212 design. The U 212 has (as gf pointed out) a much more advanced hydrodynamic shape and it es smaller.
It was developed to match the German navy's needs and later on was adopted to the Italian navy's needs. So it wasn't meant to be a big ocean-going boat, other than the 209-based 214. Compact design, excellent depth-steering capabilities in shallow waters (Baltic Sea) and silence were much more important than great depths and endurance.
Plus: Much of the features the 214 has and the 212 doesn't origins from the fact that the 214 is a newer design than the late 80's vintage 212, e.g. improved fuel cells and optronic mast. These features however are planned for the second batch of 212s for the German navy.

So I don't think you can say one is better than the other, they are different. But one thing I'm sure about: Despite Waylander's justified doubts I'm very sure there are a couple of things we're not ready to sell except to our closest allies, e.g. the Italians.

Hi, Folks, sorry for not contributing some weeks. Been ill for a while. But now I'm back

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I think the type 212 and 214 are great subs. They design of the type 212 really looks stealthy as you mentioned. So what upgrades will the second batch have?

Welcome back. Hope you feel better.

 

[Jade]

India Inducts Submarine Based Nuclear Capable Sagarika Ballistic Missile


Dated 7/7/2007
Printer Friendly Subscribe
Television news channel 'CNN-IBN' reports that India has inducted the Sagarika SLBM - Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile - into the Armed Forces.

With the induction of Sagarika, India has completed the triad of India's nuclear weapons delivery systems. This was made known at a Defence Research and Development Organisation function in New Delhi on Saturday where the team responsible for the development of the Sagarika was felicitated.

Sources say the Sagarika has a range of 1,000 km and has been accepted for induction by the Navy. The missile is likely to be installed on the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV). ATV is the indigenous nuclear-powered submarine that is expected to be launched next year.

This report is yet to be confirmed by Indian Navy or Ministry of Defence sources

=======
Well, what do you think of that ?

Are the chinese much better than this and by how much ????

What !!! No one to take up my query ?????

 

[Truculent]

I cannot see the point of announcing a slbm in your order of battle if the platform that is going to carry it is still under development!

 

[10ringr]

but what Putin spews

I'm affraid that one is total BS. The USN is a full generation ahead of the rest of the world in sonar capabilities. Astutes may indeed have very capable sonars but the're not going to be better than the best the USN has.



The soviets allways suffered a technological deficit compared to the USN, IIRC the ASW tactics relied on active systems due to their lack of decent passive sysems. However due to the lack of funding for R&D in russia on SONAR's, both passive & active they have been stuck at 1990's level capability for the most part. So they lag behind for the most part.

Yes, this is correct but the way the Russians are talking you'd think they are still the USSR and have the resources they once did. Their saber rattling is like a 1 legged man in an azz kicking contect, it theirs that their kicking. Hutch

 

[10ringr]

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I think the type 212 and 214 are great subs. They design of the type 212 really looks stealthy as you mentioned. So what upgrades will the second batch have?

Welcome back. Hope you feel better.

I'd say hydrogen fuel cell technology is significant in that it presents an unmatched technology even by US standards. It's also exporting the technology to Italy etc. The submarine can operate at high speed on diesel power or switch to the AIP system for silent slow cruising, staying submerged for up to three weeks without surfacing and with no exhaust heat. The system is also said to be vibration-free, extremely quiet and virtually undetectable. I'd say this design and the Russian Lada class to follow is going to put the US at a substantial disadvantage if the geniuses in the Senate keep acting like procurement is an option instead of a necessity. Hutch