I ment Two great nations, sorry.
Nuclear Subs
- Thread starter Jade
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mic of orion
New Member
Your arguments aren't convincing, as to latest sonars, You failed to recognize Europeans are technologically advanced as Americans and even better in many aspects.
I just have to look at new generation of warships laid down by various nations in Europe, and I am afraid US sucks major way.
I know Astute has few issues, mainly with the reactor and some optronic and vectronic equipment, but these are being worked on as we speak, still, from what I know of Virginia class, they are belated with issues and financial problems akin to sea wolf class.
Not saying US submarines are bad, but they' aren't best, I won't go in to argument who's d**k is bigger, and than say we are allies and all, to be honest, I do not care if we are allies or not,
If Americans for second thought how others think and feel when you start flag waving and we are the best s**t you'd realize sometimes if you are best it is not worth barging about, others already know that; barging about it won't make you look better, contrary it will make you look stupid, ignorant and very unpopular. BTW America is not the best in many fields, it is rather pathetic in many fields to be honest, in many aspects US is a 3rd world country.
Just to tell you, French sonar that Astute is using has been tested and proved to be the best sonar in the world, now I am not going to publicize Thales and there sonars after all sonars do harm dolphins and whales, so I am not keen on use of sonars, but if we really have to talk about it, lets be reasonable and offer some prof as to what, who, why and when.
This post is not trying to be confrontational, on contrary it tries to convey a sentiment many of us feel, stop barging, and make sensible and constructive argument which will convince us all of your claims.
\V/ Live long and prosper.
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To be honest, I agree with him, partly. It's true the US is the richest country in the world, and you also have the biggest army. The US armed forces had over $500 billion in 2006, whilst the UK, the next biggest defense country, had $50 billion. However, you're not the richest country in the world compared to your size, which is really what matters. Also, I think the US puts way too much money in the defense. There is so much slum and ghetto in the US compared to many other Western countries, you would be surprised. And on the Internet, many US citizens really are asshats. However, you don't seem like one of those. I just believe you should rethink a little, and criticize your government and your country a little. Then you'll see what it's really like.
Have a good day.
Have a good day.
I certainly agree with you. Thank you for being supportive. I fully acknolgage that there are many poor people in the U.S. and that we have many problems.
By the way, I admire your country's Gotland class ( your swedish, right?)
Anyway have a good day to you as well.
mic of orion
New Member
man chill out, I said exactly what I think and you are being attacked bc you constantly interfere in other nations affairs, saying you are bing attacked, total bs, you attack other nations and than you say "who me".
Stop that nonsense we are best, flash... YOU AIN'T, nowhere near, what US has done in past 6 years is example of utter stupidity, I am from UK, and I am not happy with our alliance with the US to be honest, sometimes I feel we are playing second fiddle to your imperialistic agenda.
Top 5 Wealthiest nations are in Europe, top 5 best to live countries in the world are in Europe, top 10 national health care systems are in Europe, top 5 living standard nations are in Europe, and list goes, when it comes to literacy, education, mortality rate, and number of many other things you guys are way at the back.
So when I see ppl saying things we got best this and that, I say prove it or shut the f**k up.
I want links and independent studies before you start flag waving, and no I do not hate America, after all my gf is American and I am there quite often, so I get to see perspective from both sides of the Atlantic.
In US I live in comfortable surrounding with good private health care and middle income behind me, but did you know, 65% of US population can't afford health care insurance, many lack social insurance and when you consider how many ppl are bragging about being greatest nation in the world, I say feed your ppl first.
As to how much you spend on defense, well, UK, Italy or France do not go and invade sovereign nations for its oil, I am sure if we did, we'd reconsider our defense spendings (well UK is helping you guys, I must admit I am one who opposed War in Iraq from day one and was very vocal about it).
Not to take over this thread wish suppose to be about submarines, so lets go back to the subject, as I said, prove to me with irrefutable evidence US submarines are best in the world, have best sonars and what not, I know US has great warships, but before you start flag waving you need to back up your claims.
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AFAIK they only run pre-perisher courses or i must be mistaking
i really don't understand what your on about because the systems you're talking about on the astute's are passive sonars so there's no transmissions that can harm sealife..mic of orion said:
ive got to say that i dont think that blizzard or 22 deserved this abuse.(and believe me that ozzy and i most often dont agree on things!)Your arguments aren't convincing, as to latest sonars, You failed to recognize Europeans are technologically advanced as Americans and even better in many aspects.
I just have to look at new generation of warships laid down by various nations in Europe, and I am afraid US sucks major way.
I know Astute has few issues, mainly with the reactor and some optronic and vectronic equipment, but these are being worked on as we speak, still, from what I know of Virginia class, they are belated with issues and financial problems akin to sea wolf class.
Not saying US submarines are bad, but they' aren't best, I won't go in to argument who's d**k is bigger, and than say we are allies and all, to be honest, I do not care if we are allies or not, the fact Americans are so ignorant, arrogant and self centered flag waving bunch of d*****ds makes this world unsafe, and other countries think less of America and Americans.
If Americans for second thought how others think and feel when you start flag waving and we are the best s**t you'd realize sometimes if you are best it is not worth barging about, others already know that; barging about it won't make you look better, contrary it will make you look stupid, ignorant and very unpopular. BTW America is not the best in many fields, it is rather pathetic in many fields to be honest, in many aspects US is a 3rd world country.
Just to tell you, French sonar that Astute is using has been tested and proved to be the best sonar in the world, now I am not going to publicize Thales and there sonars after all sonars do harm dolphins and whales, so I am not keen on use of sonars, but if we really have to talk about it, lets be reasonable and offer some prof as to what, who, why and when.
This post is not trying to be confrontational, on contrary it tries to convey a sentiment many of us feel, stop barging, and make sensible and constructive argument which will convince us all of your claims.
\V/ Live long and prosper.
its one thing to state your opinions on the best equipment but not to trash an entire nation and its people with what are really nothing more than bigoted views.
if all nations think of others in this way then that is what leads men to fight sometimes unnecessary wars in the first place.
i may agree with some of your views on the sonar and equipment but lets keep it non nationalistic and friendly.its a lot more pleasant.(and that was part of my point in my original post..)
f-22 - dont go there with this guy, it is not worth it.
mic of orion
New Member
Well, you come to these forums, and if there is a argument about something, especially which country has what, yanks somehow always show with we are best and thats that. I am sick and tiered reading such trash, if they are saying they are best at this fine, prove it, this is all I am saying, btw I am not insulting anyone here, what I said is more or less a fact, I am saying sort your welfare, education and health care and than come telling us what's what.
The fact one tiny gotalnd submarine managed to sneak in to middle of US carrier battle group in the middle of naval training proves my point, clearly they aren't he best if tiny Sweden can do that, I wonder what others can do.
Just bc someone has money to spend does not mean they are best, you know expression, quality over quantity.
BTW, UK's DDG program cost for first 6 ships is estimated at 5.8 billion pounds, in USD = 11.5 billion USD. Astute Submarines - program for first 4 boats = 3.72 billion pounds = 7.44 billion USD.
German F124 Program = 2.8 billion Euro for 4 frigates = 3.8 billion USD.
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Some of you need to settle down a bit and pull in your patriotic horns.
Rather than suspend people for unseemly behaviour, I'm going to let some of you go back and self moderate (as in edit your own threads).
Those that don't will get them edited at our discretion.
In addition - can we stop with the oneliner comments and follow on posts? Don't waste bandwidth, edit and merge please - better still, leave the simple oneliners out altogether.
Rather than suspend people for unseemly behaviour, I'm going to let some of you go back and self moderate (as in edit your own threads).
Those that don't will get them edited at our discretion.
In addition - can we stop with the oneliner comments and follow on posts? Don't waste bandwidth, edit and merge please - better still, leave the simple oneliners out altogether.
mic of orion
New Member
Admin: Text deleted. See my previous. The comments deleted only helped in reinforcing a continuing counter response and foster more defensive comments.f-22 - dont go there with this guy, it is not worth it.
I know F22 is one of the best fighters out there, and it should be, it is true 5th generation fighter, in a fight no other comes even close, I am just sad Europeans couldn't get together and get something similar, instead they went with 3-4 programs which I must admit aren't that great.
my apologies if some of you got offended,.. :beer:
The problem with the whole "X country has the best equipment" arguement is (other than being assinine) that anything specific about these systems is classified and what is available on public domain isn't always accurate and those memebers on this forum who do have that knowledge won't go into specifics either (and they shouldn't over a public forum).
Besides this was TRAINING and training makes you better and shows were you need to improve on. So what that the Gottland snuck up on a CVN, how many high value ships have the US or British subs snuck up on? The important thing is that the USN (and our allies) have learned from it during this TRAINING and is developing ways to make sure it does not happen in the future during a conflict.
What does these prices you are listing have to do with anything, price does not always reflect capibility.
You've never seen or been a part of a naval excercise have you? Most of the time one side or the other has artificial rules in place (the ship has to be in X box, or transit Y false straights that only exist on a map) or capibilities are limited, do we know if some of these rules were in place during this excerscise?
Besides this was TRAINING and training makes you better and shows were you need to improve on. So what that the Gottland snuck up on a CVN, how many high value ships have the US or British subs snuck up on? The important thing is that the USN (and our allies) have learned from it during this TRAINING and is developing ways to make sure it does not happen in the future during a conflict.
And they seem to carry too few missiles for their main role, let alone any secondary role they may wish for them in the future. Other than that it seems to be a very good design and I wish the RN the best of luck with them!
What does these prices you are listing have to do with anything, price does not always reflect capibility.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
Its not "america is the best" its just the facts bud. The astute is a fearsome platform, and dont think for a second that i am discounting its capabilities, i would love one for the RAN. But the fact of the matter is that the USN has the most sophisticated sonar systems in the world. Thats not that hard to believe given the huge ammount of funding going into R&D for the USN's SSN programe. Just because the Astute has a newer hull doesent automaticaly mean that it has superior systems to advanced USN boats like the Sea Wolf or Virginia.
Some data to back it up....
Post #691gf0012-aust said:
Post #693gf0012-aust said:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5679&page=47&highlight=astute
This is from someone who actually works in the field concerned and has dealt with collins class SSK systems and signature managment. So his oppinions on this subject tend to hold some weight.
And boys please dont get into a pissing contest, its not worth having annother thread closed down over. So the largest economy on earth can afford the largest R&D budget, and therefore has the most sophistocated systems, thats not hard to work out and it shouldn't prick anyones national pride to achnowlage it.
Jaffo i remeber you got pretty defenceive when someone stated that the F22 is half a generation ahead of the Typhoon, which it is, and now your getting defenceive over sonar capabilities. Mate its no black mark against the RN or RAF to admit that their platforms are behind the largest military and R&D infestructure on earth. If your going to get defenceive every time someone outlines the US's superiority in a particular field your going to be getting your knickers in a twist quite a bit.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #39
Thnx for the excellent participation.
Now, here's my assessment:
Castro said the "marvelous submarine would bring about either (the end of Britain) or the holocaust of the human race."
Castro, is absolutely right by making that statement about a holocaust.
How does any nation know whose missile is being fired ?
UK, France, Russia, US, China, and very soon India have nuclear subs with ICBM's.
The UK could bring it's sub close to India and fire an ICBM at China.
Then China thinking India has launched an attack will destroy India.
If India has a 2nd strike, then it will also destroy China.
Meanwhile, China will attack US as it will gain from a destroyed China.
Russia too might start firing it's missile's.
And, that would be the end of the world in a matter of a few minutes.
You might set off for work and the world could be destroyed before you could even reach your office !!!
The biggest threat to mankind is Nuclear powered and armed subs.
Now, here's my assessment:
Castro said the "marvelous submarine would bring about either (the end of Britain) or the holocaust of the human race."
Castro, is absolutely right by making that statement about a holocaust.
How does any nation know whose missile is being fired ?
UK, France, Russia, US, China, and very soon India have nuclear subs with ICBM's.
The UK could bring it's sub close to India and fire an ICBM at China.
Then China thinking India has launched an attack will destroy India.
If India has a 2nd strike, then it will also destroy China.
Meanwhile, China will attack US as it will gain from a destroyed China.
Russia too might start firing it's missile's.
And, that would be the end of the world in a matter of a few minutes.
You might set off for work and the world could be destroyed before you could even reach your office !!!
The biggest threat to mankind is Nuclear powered and armed subs.