Brunei Corvettes

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
The RN itself could take them as light FFGs for operations in areas such as the Caribbean or the eastern med . All systems aboard are similar to RN ships after all... This could help test the idea of lighter FFGs complementing the Type 45s and Type 23s.

cheers
I think it would be perfect and add to the RN fleet very easily and would require the minimum of political interference and has been sea trialled would just reqire RN crews and a follow on order of 3 more as heveiliy armed EEZ ships Caribbean, and eastern med missions and showing the flag a kind of heavily armed floreal class. i bet it will be sold to the RN
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
Couldn't agree more, the RN must explore the possibility of bringing these ships into the fleet, even if it meant trading in the Castle Class LPVs as a part measure. As stated, they would make an excellent complement to the current fleet and I would personally like to see at least one of them down in the South Atlantic.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
I think it would be perfect and add to the RN fleet very easily and would require the minimum of political interference and has been sea trialled would just reqire RN crews and a follow on order of 3 more as heveiliy armed EEZ ships Caribbean, and eastern med missions and showing the flag a kind of heavily armed floreal class. i bet it will be sold to the RN
I wouldn't take that bet, but it sounds like an excellent idea, I like the idea of one permanently each to Diego Garcia, Falklands and Gibraltar or somewhere in the Caribbean. A nice low manpower (sic) deterrent in any key area.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Are these ships suitable for the heavy stormy seas around the Falklands ? I thought the ships had relatively shallow draft and were thus better suited for the Caribbean and the Med or the Red Sea / Gulf areas.

cheers
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I wouldn't take that bet, but it sounds like an excellent idea, I like the idea of one permanently each to Diego Garcia, Falklands and Gibraltar or somewhere in the Caribbean. A nice low manpower (sic) deterrent in any key area.
Not suitable for the Falklands. Too heavily armed, too many crew (needed for all that firepower), too lean & mean. They're warfighting ships.

Low manpower? HMS Clyde has 36 crew: these things have 79. She's slightly smaller, but has >50% greater range, much better seakeeping, much greater endurance. Can handle a larger helicopter. Etc, etc.

Dunno why one corvette would deter anyone from Diego Garcia. It's not exactly lightly armed. Gibraltar isn't under any threat such a ship could deter. Caribbean? Again, who are we going to fight there at short notice? Something like Clyde, but maybe with better helicopter support, would be better for chasing drug smugglers & the like.

Nice ships for a smallish, fairly short-range navy, but I can't see an RN role for them.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Couldn't agree more, the RN must explore the possibility of bringing these ships into the fleet, even if it meant trading in the Castle Class LPVs as a part measure. As stated, they would make an excellent complement to the current fleet and I would personally like to see at least one of them down in the South Atlantic.
The Castles are going. The new HMS Clyde (beefed up River) is taking over in the S. Atlantic. I think she's en route as I type.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I've read thru these comments with interest...

Here are some points to discuss / think about.

Todjaeger, made the point about replacing the Sea Wolf VLS system. At present the system is a derivative of the system fitted to the RN Type 23 Frigates, but is probably closer to the system fitted to the RMN Lekiu corvettes. The RN would love these boats, (armament of an FFG, but in an OPV's skin / highly automated, fewer personnel required), but I have a feeling that the cost would be out with budget constraints.

The system as is, is complete & will work. Other than testing it to prove to the customer that it would work, both the Sea Wolf & Exocet are unused.

Why then, would anyone want to rip out a "new" system, just to replace it with another manufacturers product that would do the same job?
Outlay to buy the ships, then retro fit them would be extremely expensive, in comparison to actually going to the OEM & buying the missiles & spares for the kit.
The idea I'd raised about possibly switching out some armament was on the basis of "What might make the corvettes attractive to the RNZN..." when the NZDF doesn't make use of either the 76mm/62 gun, Exocet AShM or Seawolf SAM, and the ADF uses neither Exocet nor Seawolf. Modifications to use what the NZDF/ADF uses or no, I don't think it very likely that NZ would purchase the three corvettes, unless they were offered at a very good price...

With regards to possible users for the corvettes, I just see Malaysia (being similar to the Lekiu FFG), or the RN (if used in the Persian Gulf). There are a number of other nations that I think would find them attractive but are unlikely to be able to afford them, either due to lack of funds or trained operators for the on-board systems.

-Cheers
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Not suitable for the Falklands. Too heavily armed, too many crew (needed for all that firepower), too lean & mean. They're warfighting ships.

Low manpower? HMS Clyde has 36 crew: these things have 79. She's slightly smaller, but has >50% greater range, much better seakeeping, much greater endurance. Can handle a larger helicopter. Etc, etc.

Dunno why one corvette would deter anyone from Diego Garcia. It's not exactly lightly armed. Gibraltar isn't under any threat such a ship could deter. Caribbean? Again, who are we going to fight there at short notice? Something like Clyde, but maybe with better helicopter support, would be better for chasing drug smugglers & the like.

Nice ships for a smallish, fairly short-range navy, but I can't see an RN role for them.
the RN is familer with the hull of corvettes as it is similar [in fact based of the VT frigate hull which was used for Type 21] it would be used in a similar role
a light FFG being based in Gib would be useful perhaps Cyprus would be better as it would be very useful as a picket ship as it could transit to the Arabian sea much quicker than UK based ships provide sea power till bigger assets are in place. [Cyprus would be well placed as it close to Israel and proved very useful in the Evacuation from Lebanon]
 

Alpha Epsilon

New Member
The VLS Seawolf is one rare system nowadays (outside of the RN) and might prove a handicap.
Just if anyone's interested, here a list of SeaWolf users around the world.

Royal Navy
Royal Omani Navy
Royal Malaysian Navy
Chilean Navy
Brazilean Navy
Royal Bruneian Navy (sort of)
 

contedicavour

New Member
Just if anyone's interested, here a list of SeaWolf users around the world.

Royal Navy
Royal Omani Navy
Royal Malaysian Navy
Chilean Navy
Brazilean Navy
Royal Bruneian Navy (sort of)
Yep that's why I talked about these navies above as potential takers of the corvettes. Brazil isn't building enough Barroso to replace the retiring ex USN DDs and Chile might want to replace old FAC(M)s such as the old Saar with them. RMN and RN we talked already. Oman is too small to operate efficiently 3 new light frigates (at least for now it lacks trained personnel)

cheers
 

Ding

Member
There's reports, though i can't confirm, that the batch 2 Lekius for RMN will be equipped with essm, though i'm not sure if it will replace the seawolf or complement it. Will confirm in the RMN thread.

If the report is true (i'm not sure they are) then that will be another point for the RMN not to take the Nakhoda class from Brunei.

Am I right if i think the essm and the aspide are similar systems? that's because as i remember the aspide is based on the seasparrow, which is also the base for the essm.
 

contedicavour

New Member
There's reports, though i can't confirm, that the batch 2 Lekius for RMN will be equipped with essm, though i'm not sure if it will replace the seawolf or complement it. Will confirm in the RMN thread.

If the report is true (i'm not sure they are) then that will be another point for the RMN not to take the Nakhoda class from Brunei.

Am I right if i think the essm and the aspide are similar systems? that's because as i remember the aspide is based on the seasparrow, which is also the base for the essm.
It's highly unlikely that a frigate will carry 2 different types of short range SAMs, it's either ESSM or Seawolf. ESSM has a range which is 2 times that of the old Sea Sparrow and can be launched in quadruple packs from a single VLS launcher. Aspide did have a faster and longer range version, Aspide-2000, delivered to Brazil for example. Today's replacement of Aspide however is the Franco-Italian Aster.

cheers
 

swerve

Super Moderator
It's highly unlikely that a frigate will carry 2 different types of short range SAMs, it's either ESSM or Seawolf. ESSM has a range which is 2 times that of the old Sea Sparrow and can be launched in quadruple packs from a single VLS launcher. Aspide did have a faster and longer range version, Aspide-2000, delivered to Brazil for example. Today's replacement of Aspide however is the Franco-Italian Aster.

cheers
I think the Aspide 2000 missile is being marketed to existing users of the Albatros system as a replacement for their old missiles, to improve the system without having to spend too much money, but not to potential new customers.
 

contedicavour

New Member
I think the Aspide 2000 missile is being marketed to existing users of the Albatros system as a replacement for their old missiles, to improve the system without having to spend too much money, but not to potential new customers.
Indeed. It is my understanding that there is no production anymore of Aspides, so there could only be modernization of existing missiles to -2000 standard. I'm not 100% sure however as there isn't anything official about this.

cheers
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There's reports, though i can't confirm, that the batch 2 Lekius for RMN will be equipped with essm, though I'm not sure if it will replace the sea wolf or complement it.

Like Ding, I've "heard" the same thing (ESSM to be fitted to batch 2 Lekiu's). ;)

It will be "In Place of" Sea Wolf, as I think there may be an issue about the tracker system fitted to the batch 1's & the Nakhoda's (like it's not manufactured any more).

The ESSM fact will be a little difficult to confirm, as the contract has still not been finalised yet.

If i can "confirm" anything else to back this up, i will post it.

Systems Adict
 
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Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Just as an update....

Now that the Brunei OPV's are up for sale, the Germany company responsible for their sale on behalf of the Bruneian Govt, has started to move the ships from the berths of BAE Systems Scostoun Yard, near Glasgow, on the River Clyde.

Ships 1 & 2 (KDB Nakhoda Ragam & Bendahara Sakam), have already moved in the last 2 weeks, with Ship 3 (KDB Jerambak) due to move sometime in the next week or 2, to a port somewhere in England.


It is a sad end to this chapter of their working life's, but with the right offer, these ships can be a wonderful addition or a good upgrade to an established navy of one of the smaller navies on the planet.


Systems Adict
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Just as an update....

Now that the Brunei OPV's are up for sale, the Germany company responsible for their sale on behalf of the Bruneian Govt, has started to move the ships from the berths of BAE Systems Scostoun Yard, near Glasgow, on the River Clyde.

Ships 1 & 2 (KDB Nakhoda Ragam & Bendahara Sakam), have already moved in the last 2 weeks, with Ship 3 (KDB Jerambak) due to move sometime in the next week or 2, to a port somewhere in England.


It is a sad end to this chapter of their working life's, but with the right offer, these ships can be a wonderful addition or a good upgrade to an established navy of one of the smaller navies on the planet.


Systems Adict
Is there any sort of announced "reserve" that the Brunei government won't accept less than, or perhaps a timeframe by which a sale needs to go through? Just trying to get a frame of reference to see which nations might be interested in terms of platform, availability and cost.

-Cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
So Brunei will just continue to rely on the 3 obsolete small FACs with MM38 aboard ? For a rich country relying on offshore oil that's a weird decision. The corvettes were too big, but that country needs larger and more modern FACs or OPVHs.

cheers
 

WillS

Member
It is a sad end to this chapter of their working life's, but with the right offer, these ships can be a wonderful addition or a good upgrade to an established navy of one of the smaller navies on the planet.
I seem to recall reading (though I cannot remember where, it might have been here somewhere) that there are a couple of additional issues facing potential purchasers of these vessels, both relating to the environment for which they were designed.

The first issue relates to these ships having no heating system, having been designed for Brunei's operational area. I'm not sure how expensive it would be to retrofit something enabling them to operate in less balmy weather, or even if the power plant can sustain such a retrofit.

The second issue relates to the height of the average Brunei male, quite a bit shorter than your average European. Consoles, seating and (most importantly) bunks were designed with Brunei sailors in mind. If these issue cannot be addressed, it will rather limit the list of potential customers.

WillS
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
...You make 2 very valid points WillS, but having been on board for a visit a few years ago, during sea trials, I can help put your mind at rest.

Firstly, although I understand that the anthropomorphic proportions of the "average" Bruneian/Asian were taken into consideration, this would I feel, in no way detract from the operability of the ships. I myself am 6ft tall, & while at times it felt that I was going to bang my head, I didn't during my stay on board.

A lot of the procured equipment I saw came from various UK & European manufacturers whom produce similar items for other national navies across the globe. From the kit I observed, I would say that it appeared to be identical to similar equipments I'd seen on other vessels.


Secondly, the Heating/Ventilation/Air-Conditioning issue. Again, from what I observed in way of HVAC, it appeared to be no different from that which I've seen on other vessels.

In my understanding of such systems, an electrically powered heating box is integrated into the major ventilation trunk, coming away from each air treatment unit. This, in my opinion, would be a simple, straight forward task requiring the removal of a section of trunking, inserting a heating unit & running the cabling to an isolation switch, fed from an adjacent power supply unit / cabinet.


This action would have only minimal cost implications & would not be an obstacle in the bigger picture of buying 3 state of the art, heavily armed warships, @ £XX-million each.


Your thoughts...


Systems Adict :)
 
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