Arab Air Forces

[SaudiArabian]

Cool. Was this in Saudi or in Egypt?

i don't know exactly

these joint Air exercises name is "Faisal" and are practiced every summer since the year 2000

the 1st joint exercist is named Faisal-1 and was in June 2000

Faisal-2 was in April~May 2001 in KSA

Faisal-3 in the summer of 2002

Faisal-4 was in May~June 2003 in King Fahd Air Base in Taif

Faisal-5 in the summer of 2004

Faisal-6 from 4th to 20th of April 2005

i don't have further info on these joint exercises more than what i mentioned above

 

[SABRE]

many of the PAF personnel (or any other Pakistani scientist working in the Kingdom) speak English awefully and with the Urdo accent , this makes difficulty to communicate and i witnessed this alot in King Saud University

The best were called back to Pakistan after a short period. Only those were left in KSA who were suppose to train on RSAF fighter aircrafts. The few best that were left in KSA were also called back recently as Pakistan is going through force modernization. So I can understand what you really came across. I deal with such people everyday.

You should see the PAF pilots assigned to the UAE. I just visited some of them along with few Egyption pilots. Now they are high caliber pilots. Guess UAE pays more & gives better incentives

says who ? .. what is your source for that ?

joining the Armed Forces is a source of pride (similar to the pride given to a doctor) in the Saudi society

From what I know this is the recent phenomina. I dont know how old are you, but do u remember or ever herd of the Makka (Kabba) take over by the terrorists? (I'll answer rest to this when you reply to it)

that is false , most Saudis are quite wealthy but not rich and it has nothing to do with joining the military

It actually does. This is not just a Saudi problem or of a state. This is a problem at the individual level. Not many wealthy or rich prefer to join forces. This I have seen in Pakistan as well, but at least not every one is wealthy or rich.

that is also untrue . Saudi Arabia isn't only training many national personnel but also foriegners from fellow Arab and Muslim countries get training in the Kingdom

in the recent graduated pilots from King Faisal Air Academy , there was a Pakistani pilot graduated with them.

Pakistani pilots graduate from world over, mostly from Turkey. In the beggining it was Iran but relations just drifted away. As for Saudis institutions training foreigners, I wont challenge that. But I would ask who is teaching there? Local Saudis or Foreigners are being tought by Foreigners? (This is really a question not a sarcasm)

that is extremely false ! as i said earlier , the work in the Armed Forces , National Guard and the Security Forces is a high source of pride in the Kingdom

you will witness that if you are in any 'Majlis' at a party and listen to the men hailing a person and congratulating him for joining the Military (especially if he becomes a personnel in the RSAF)

The artical/report in which all this was stated is from late 1980s & early 1990s. It was an unofficial Memoirs of top PAF pilots who have served abroad. Since that time I have no doubt that Saudi passion has changed. In fact I also mentioned somewhere that new Saudi Special Forces (Commandos) are pretty good & a committed force.

& btw, I am a frequent visiter to Saudi Arabi (Jeddah, Makka & Madina). May be we'll meet someday & I'll have a sit in ur Majlis.

there is something about the Saudi military capability that most military specialists do not realize

the Saudi Society is one of the most well Armed Societies in the whole world (with many peices of weapons per capita) and in many houses there is an 'armory' where weapons are stored

this is what explains how come tens of thousands of Saudi nationals were trained for very few months and fought very effectively in Afghanistan in the war against the Soviets , these tens of thousands were all non-military personnel . the same thing was repeated in Chechenya and Bosnia

Well ... there are various dimensions to the fight in Afghanistan, which made the Jihad effective. Talking abt would take ages.

yes somehow for patriotism but no political . its mainly religious/Jihadic sense because we , Saudi Society , consider joining the military as "Jihad" and now its more jihadic specially joining the Security Forces is a "Jihad for Allah" against the "Khawarej" aka Al Qaida organisation of the Arabian Peninsulla

I was refering here to the princes joining the forces not the people.



Anyways, the points I gave are over decade old & much of it is not true today. As I myself said that Saudi Armed forces have improved, but there is always room for further improvement.

 

[SaudiArabian]

The best were called back to Pakistan after a short period. Only those were left in KSA who were suppose to train on RSAF fighter aircrafts. The few best that were left in KSA were also called back recently as Pakistan is going through force modernization. So I can understand what you really came across. I deal with such people everyday.

well bro untill today , i have never seen any PAF fighter pilot in KSA not even a maintenance personnel

what i do see is many dedicated scientists in universities (whom there only weakness point is the accent as i mentioned to you , very few of them speak English perfectly and those are excellent doctors)

a retired captain of the RSAF (relative of mine ; an excellent well experienced maintenance engineer not fighter pilot) said only some of the very old Saudi Lightning fighters were flown by Pakistani pilots in the 60's because KSA urgently aquired British-made jet fighters to face the problems with the Egyptian military on the Saudi-Yemeni Boarder. PAF pilots haven't flew any other jet fighter

the only second Pakistani Military Deployment to the Kingdom was a small military deployment (few thousands ground troops) during the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait . this military deployment ended shortly by the end of the war

there has been no Pakistani military presence ever since (the reports of Pak deployment to the Kingdom in 2003 "to protect the royal family because they don't trust the Saudi people" is untrue and was spreaded by anti-KSAgov movements in Europe

You should see the PAF pilots assigned to the UAE. I just visited some of them along with few Egyption pilots. Now they are high caliber pilots. Guess UAE pays more & gives better incentives

maybe i would but i haven't seen any of them in here

From what I know this is the recent phenomina. I dont know how old are you, but do u remember or ever herd of the Makka (Kabba) take over by the terrorists? (I'll answer rest to this when you reply to it)

It actually does. This is not just a Saudi problem or of a state. This is a problem at the individual level. Not many wealthy or rich prefer to join forces. This I have seen in Pakistan as well, but at least not every one is wealthy or rich.

its still false and untrue , maybe you would know more if you monitored the Saudi newspapers and find something like this : "few hundreds accepted in the Military colleges while other thousands were unaccepted"

there are tens of thousands of Saudi recently-graduated students from high schools admit to the Saudi Armed Forces , the National Guard and the Security Forces but only few hundreds are accepted because the chairs are full

this is happening since a very long time , you'll wonder why . i'll tell you there are many reasons and wealth is one of the reasons why many Saudis admit to the Armed Forces and the National Guard ..

its because military personnel are granted high salaries (yes high salaries!) that make them wealthy plust the other benifits like having a free house during the time of service , special healthcare and (if the military personnel wants advanced training then he gets) free advanced education mostly abroad in the US , Europe and Pakistan



as for the seizure of Makkah in 1400 AH , i have a video of more than 40 minutes about that incident plus photos and many information on what happened as well as detailed information about Juhaiman's ideology and how they all surrendered after its been proven to them that their ideology is false (its why he looks so shocked in the video) because their claimed (undefeatable) Mahdi was killed by SANG's infront of them

i am 21 years old . however , my parents , uncles and my grandparents have lived the days of that incident and also know alot of it

and that video is on Google Video website while the information i have is in Arabic , i may translate them if its possible to put a thread about that incident on DefenceTalk.com

Pakistani pilots graduate from world over, mostly from Turkey. In the beggining it was Iran but relations just drifted away. As for Saudis institutions training foreigners, I wont challenge that. But I would ask who is teaching there? Local Saudis or Foreigners are being tought by Foreigners? (This is really a question not a sarcasm)

i asked a Saudi pilot in the 92nd squadron (with few hundreds of flight hours on F-15S) if he saw any Pakistani pilots or trained by them and he said to me no there aren't any , all the trainers/instructors and maintenance are Saudis

The artical/report in which all this was stated is from late 1980s & early 1990s. It was an unofficial Memoirs of top PAF pilots who have served abroad. Since that time I have no doubt that Saudi passion has changed. In fact I also mentioned somewhere that new Saudi Special Forces (Commandos) are pretty good & a committed force.

& btw, I am a frequent visiter to Saudi Arabi (Jeddah, Makka & Madina). May be we'll meet someday & I'll have a sit in ur Majlis.

these PAF pilots are wrong in their view

i was a very young boy during the late 80's and early 90's . at that time everyone i know in my age wants to be a soldier and buys military clothes from the shops

i personnaly begun using a light hunting rifle when i was 9 years old , i don't even know what was that rifle's name lol

I was refering here to the princes joining the forces not the people.

royals in the armed forces and national guards could be counted on fingers , they are so few and very rare

Anyways, the points I gave are over decade old & much of it is not true today. As I myself said that Saudi Armed forces have improved, but there is always room for further improvement.

maybe 4~5 decades old , no offence bro but things here are way different than the misinformation on some internet websites

take a look at the military videos section in here , its been updated with my videos on YouTube on the RSAF


if you have any evident of any PAF personnel flew or maintained Saudi Jet Fighters (other than the Lightning & probably Strikemasters) then please provide it in the RSAF thread and i'll be thankful

 

[SABRE]

if you have any evident of any PAF personnel flew or maintained Saudi Jet Fighters (other than the Lightning & probably Strikemasters) then please provide it in the RSAF thread and i'll be thankful

I did see a pictures of PAF pilots posing near the RSAF F-15, a PAF pilot in ful gear in the F-15 cockpit & an F-15 flying (supposetly by PAF pilot) ... but those pics were at my friends house (long time ago). The man who was in the cockpit is his uncle. He has flew F-15 (RSAF's) , F-16, MiG-29, UAE's Mirage2k9 & various other fighter aircrafts. I'll c if they are still available.

 

[SaudiArabian]

I did see a pictures of PAF pilots posing near the RSAF F-15, a PAF pilot in ful gear in the F-15 cockpit

it will be good to provide them , but also please provide the date and what was the occupation of the PAF pilot (i expect him to be instructor)

& an F-15 flying (supposetly by PAF pilot)

it isn't an evident

... but those pics were at my friends house (long time ago). The man who was in the cockpit is his uncle.

that could mean he is an instructor and the picture belongs to the early 80's when the F-15C's were delivered , please provide what was the event of the picture and why was he in the F-15 cockpit (training ? mission ? testing ?) , also please tell whats the version of the F-15 is it single seated (C version) or the twin seated (D version)

He has flew F-15 (RSAF's) , F-16, MiG-29, UAE's Mirage2k9 & various other fighter aircrafts. I'll c if they are still available.

how did he have training on both aircrafts ??

the systems of the MIG-29 are so different than the F-15


one point i may forgot to mention earlier in the past reply. there are few Pakistani Military personnel serving in the Royal Saudi Naval Force.

 

[Izzy1]

I did see a pictures of PAF pilots posing near the RSAF F-15, a PAF pilot in ful gear in the F-15 cockpit

I don't doubt it, but I would not read too much into it. It was almost certainly a secondment posting Sabre - as you know, PAF and RSAF have a very close relationship and short-term pilot exchange programmes are common. Somewhere, there is probably a picture of an RSAF pilot sitting in a PAF F-16.

The days of all-Pakistani crewed RSAF fighter squadrons are long over and went out with the Ligthning - and as Saudi Arabian says, that was prompted by emergency measures (Yemen Civil War).

Just to say by the way, whenever I am in Dhahran, I still get a gulp in my throat when I see the RSAF Lightning 'gate guard' mounted on display open-air there. Awesome.

 

[DragonKing786]

Somewhere, there is probably a picture of an RSAF pilot sitting in a PAF F-16.

Sorry,. to bust your bubble, but that never happened, and I don't think it will happen. PAF since day 1 was able to maintain her AF and pilots.

 

[eaf-f16]

Sorry,. to bust your bubble, but that never happened, and I don't think it will happen. PAF since day 1 was able to maintain her AF and pilots.

He didn't mean RSAF manning PAF F-16, I think he meant in training exercises with PAF F-16's and RSAF F-15's. Apparently Egypt dose that kind of stuff with SA every year so it wouldn't be unusual.

 

[SABRE]

I don't doubt it, but I would not read too much into it. It was almost certainly a secondment posting Sabre - as you know, PAF and RSAF have a very close relationship and short-term pilot exchange programmes are common. Somewhere, there is probably a picture of an RSAF pilot sitting in a PAF F-16.

The days of all-Pakistani crewed RSAF fighter squadrons are long over and went out with the Ligthning - and as Saudi Arabian says, that was prompted by emergency measures (Yemen Civil War).

Just to say by the way, whenever I am in Dhahran, I still get a gulp in my throat when I see the RSAF Lightning 'gate guard' mounted on display open-air there. Awesome.

The picture was from 1980s & it is in PAF's charter to train its pilots on different aircrafts from friendly nations, especially on those aircrafts that are not in PAF inventory.

The PAF pilots in RSAF, as I mentioned before, returned to Pakistan long time ago. Some were sent to UAE & the top cream stayed home as PAF went into modernization phase.

 

[eaf-f16]

We are starting to get off topic. The subject of the thread is what the best Arab Air Force. Of course seeing that I'm Egyptian I'm going to say that the EAF is the best, but recently I have seen how the RSAF could be the most powerful ,even when compared to the IAF. They no longer have PAF pilots ,although I'm still unsure if they have enough pilots to fly all of their planes.

 

[Khairul Alam]

A Center for Strategic and Internation Studies (CSIS) report on the RSAF dated October 30, 2002 said the following about RSAF's readiness:

"Nevertheless, the overall warfighting capability of Saudi Air Force has deteriorated since the mid-1990s, and the RSAF now faces a crisis in readiness. Saudi Arabia has not been able to keep up with its force expansion, and even the lead elements in its F-15 force have lost readiness, reduced training standards, and experienced growing accident rates. Saudi Arabia now has only 0.9 aircrews and 0.5 ground crews per plane, something like one-third to two-thirds of its requirement for intense, “24-hour a day,” sustained combat against a major Iraqi invasion. Its pilots fly an average of 3.5-5 hours of training per month versus a NATO standard of 20. This is roughly the same number of flight hours as a low performance air force like Syria. Accident rates have been high, and at least nine fatal accidents – five in 1999-2000 – can be attributed to training and readiness problems. Proficiency levels have dropped from moderate to low, with particular problems in joint warfare and offensive missions."

Some may say this report is too old to be valid now but i think 4.5 years isnt an awfully long time. Besides i cudnt get any latest assessments. I wud only be too glad if anyone refuted these points.

 

[SaudiArabian]

although I'm still unsure if they have enough pilots to fly all of their planes.

be sure that there is more than enough

A Center for Strategic and Internation Studies (CSIS) report on the RSAF dated October 30, 2002 said the following about RSAF's readiness:

"Nevertheless, the overall warfighting capability of Saudi Air Force has deteriorated since the mid-1990s, and the RSAF now faces a crisis in readiness. Saudi Arabia has not been able to keep up with its force expansion, and even the lead elements in its F-15 force have lost readiness, reduced training standards, and experienced growing accident rates. Saudi Arabia now has only 0.9 aircrews and 0.5 ground crews per plane, something like one-third to two-thirds of its requirement for intense, “24-hour a day,” sustained combat against a major Iraqi invasion. Its pilots fly an average of 3.5-5 hours of training per month versus a NATO standard of 20. This is roughly the same number of flight hours as a low performance air force like Syria. Accident rates have been high, and at least nine fatal accidents – five in 1999-2000 – can be attributed to training and readiness problems. Proficiency levels have dropped from moderate to low, with particular problems in joint warfare and offensive missions."

Some may say this report is too old to be valid now but i think 4.5 years isnt an awfully long time. Besides i cudnt get any latest assessments. I wud only be too glad if anyone refuted these points.

thats old

this is the latest one (been release on 28/7/2006) , you can download it from this page

http://www.csis.org/burke/mb/me/


and this is the direct link about the Saudi military

http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/060728_gulf_saudi.pdf

 

[eaf-f16]

Egyptian MiG-25

Did you know that MiG-25 was undergoing tests with Egyptian Air Force before it went into production or given the name MiG-25?

It arrived in Egypt 1971 and taken before the Yom Kippur War.

4 of them even had Egyptian markings and violated Israeli air space 20 times to perform reconnaissance missions with Israelis not shooting down a single one .We were on the verge of buying them and using them against Israel but the Soviets refused.

May I remind you that at the time the MiG-25 was equal to what the F-22 is now. Of course I'm not saying it's equal to the F-22 but when compared to the fighters of the time it was like it.We would have killed the Israeli Air Force.

Damn Shame!!!

 

[Rich]

May I remind you that at the time the MiG-25 was equal to what the F-22 is now. Of course I'm not saying it's equal to the F-22 but when compared to the fighters of the time it was like it.We would have killed the Israeli Air Force.

How was it "equal to the F-22"? In what way? The MIG-25 used vacuum tubes for Gods sake.

The MIG-25 was one of the biggest boondoggles in aviation history. I remember when it was finally fielded, and Yank doctrine had changed to low level attack, and cruise missiles, the Russians had quite a surprise to find the MIG-25s radar was useless for anything flying under 2,000'nfloorl: They were frantic at the thought of big lumbering B-52s flying in at 200'.

The F-22 is not an interceptor it is a pure ATA fighter that can dominate and win air superiority against any other fighter. It is not only all aspect stealth its also highly manueverable. Best of all it can supercruise and unlike the MIG-25 we dont have to replace its engine every time it runs a little hot.

The Foxbat was a one dimensional aircraft designed to fight a one dimensional super-sonic bomber which we never built and deployed. I guess as a recce aircraft it had some value, and it sparkled as a "run away from the fight" airplane, [Not per the rules in an otherwise excellent post. Deleted]

Other attributes the Foxbat had. 1 It was built without transistor circuitry. 2, Its welding was done by hand, 3, Pilot vision was highly obstructed and rivet heads were exposed on the airframe, 4,The combat radius was 186 miles, 5, It was so heavy the Soviets had to remove the pilot ejection system, 6, The airplane was unable to intercept the SR-71 because it flew to high, to fast, 7, The MIG 25 was so unmaneuverable a F-4 could easily out-turn it. 8, The Foxbat was designed to climb fast, make on pass at an enemy, shoot its missiles when control told him to, and then go home.

It had nothing in common with the F-22, in fact you can call the Foxbat the exact opposite of the Raptor in design, doctrine, and capabilities.

Ive generally been more positive towards Russian aviation then many are here in the west. Not towards this aircraft however, which was greatly feared during my own in service days. As it turned out we wasted our time fearing the Foxbat. Being "so fast that no-one can catch you" is not a doctrine designed to win an air war, especially if what your doing is running away.

 

[eaf-f16]

How was it "equal to the F-22"? In what way? The MIG-25 used vacuum tubes for Gods sake.

The MIG-25 was one of the biggest boondoggles in aviation history. I remember when it was finally fielded, and Yank doctrine had changed to low level attack, and cruise missiles, the Russians had quite a surprise to find the MIG-25s radar was useless for anything flying under 2,000'nfloorl: They were frantic at the thought of big lumbering B-52s flying in at 200'.

The F-22 is not an interceptor it is a pure ATA fighter that can dominate and win air superiority against any other fighter. It is not only all aspect stealth its also highly manueverable. Best of all it can supercruise and unlike the MIG-25 we dont have to replace its engine every time it runs a little hot.

The Foxbat was a one dimensional aircraft designed to fight a one dimensional super-sonic bomber which we never built and deployed. I guess as a recce aircraft it had some value, and it sparkled as a "run away from the fight" airplane, "which is why, no doubt, it appealed to the Arabs".

Other attributes the Foxbat had. 1 It was built without transistor circuitry. 2, Its welding was done by hand, 3, Pilot vision was highly obstructed and rivet heads were exposed on the airframe, 4,The combat radius was 186 miles, 5, It was so heavy the Soviets had to remove the pilot ejection system, 6, The airplane was unable to intercept the SR-71 because it flew to high, to fast, 7, The MIG 25 was so unmaneuverable a F-4 could easily out-turn it. 8, The Foxbat was designed to climb fast, make on pass at an enemy, shoot its missiles when control told him to, and then go home.

It had nothing in common with the F-22, in fact you can call the Foxbat the exact opposite of the Raptor in design, doctrine, and capabilities.

Ive generally been more positive towards Russian aviation then many are here in the west. Not towards this aircraft however, which was greatly feared during my own in service days. As it turned out we wasted our time fearing the Foxbat. Being "so fast that no-one can catch you" is not a doctrine designed to win an air war, especially if what your doing is running away.

You're clearly illiterate. After I stated specifically that I didn't mean that the MiG-25 was equal to the F-22 but the performance gap was as wide with the MiG-25 and fighters of the time as it is now with the F-22 and fighters of our time you still twist this and make it seem like i said the MiG-25 is equal to the F-22.

The MiG-25 with its powerful radar (thanks to vacum tubes) could shoot down the F-4 before the F-4's radar could even detect the MiG-25. It could have shot F-4's from a distance of over 300km away, so the pilot doesn't even need to have a frame-less cockpit or bubble canopy.

The MiG-25 didn't even need to maneuver because all a pilot had to do to evade missiles was to "hit the gas".

[Off topic, not very constructive to throw insults, please read the rules. Deleted]

And tell me if the F-4 is sooo much more superior to MiG-25 why were the Israelis unable to intercept it after it violated their airspace 20 times, even after they had intelligence telling them the route of the planes and when the flight were going to take place?

 

[rabs]

Wasn't the kill ratio between Israeli phantoms and Arab Mig-25s very favorable towards the F4.

I personally feel that the Mig-25 was not really a generation leap as the F-22 is, and really proved no soviet superiority in any field of aerospace technology except for possibly deception.

Also I believe Rich's comments about Arabs running was testament to their less than spectacular air warfare doctrines. Not necessarily their courage which as has been proven time and time again is quite sizable.

 

[Grand Danois]

Reopened.

Play nice.

 

[eaf-f16]

Wasn't the kill ratio between Israeli phantoms and Arab Mig-25s very favorable towards the F4.

I personally feel that the Mig-25 was not really a generation leap as the F-22 is, and really proved no soviet superiority in any field of aerospace technology except for possibly deception.

Also I believe Rich's comments about Arabs running was testament to their less than spectacular air warfare doctrines. Not necessarily their courage which as has been proven time and time again is quite sizable.

You must have mistaken the MiG-25 for the MiG-21. The MiG-25 was never used by the Egyptian Air Force in air-air combat. 4 experimental prototypes of the MiG-25 were sent to the EAF for recon missions on Israel and returned to Russia after 2 years. The MiG-21 was the EAF's front line fighter at the time of the war.

They did however use it to spy on the Israelis and this scared the hell out of both the Americans (because it meant the MiG-25 was nearing production status) and the Israelis (because they thought the EAF was going to be the first air force in the world to receive such a fighter because they were the first to really use it).

After more than 20 violations of Israeli air force they were unable to intercept it (sometimes they didn't even wanna try) even after they had intelligence telling them the flight routes and the time of the flights.

The MiG-25 greatly out classed the F-4. In the Gulf War an Iraqi MiG-25 shot down a USAF F-18 so you can forget about an Israeli F-4 shooting one down. It has "first sight- first shot- first kill" on the F-4 because of it's powerful radar.

 

[metro]

You must have mistaken the MiG-25 for the MiG-21. The MiG-25 was never used by the Egyptian Air Force in air-air combat. 4 experimental prototypes of the MiG-25 were sent to the EAF for recon missions on Israel and returned to Russia after 2 years. The MiG-21 was the EAF's front line fighter at the time of the war.

They did however use it to spy on the Israelis and this scared the hell out of both the Americans (because it meant the MiG-25 was nearing production status) and the Israelis (because they thought the EAF was going to be the first air force in the world to receive such a fighter because they were the first to really use it).

After more than 20 violations of Israeli air force they were unable to intercept it (sometimes they didn't even wanna try) even after they had intelligence telling them the flight routes and the time of the flights.

The MiG-25 greatly out classed the F-4. In the Gulf War an Iraqi MiG-25 shot down a USAF F-18 so you can forget about an Israeli F-4 shooting one down. It has "first sight- first shot- first kill" on the F-4 because of it's powerful radar.

you're talking about '67 right?
I don't know about the MIG-25 flying over Israel 20 times, I'll leave in the hands of historians.
I do know that Israel getting the Iraqi to defect in his MIG-21 was huge for Israel (examinning it, mock doq-fights-etc...) and the US, as it was the first time we got to see the Russian technology in that plane. That has been marked as the point (by many) at which we started supporting Israel.

As to Rich's point, I don't think you (collective) can compare the F-22 Pele/MJ of all fighters ever (yes, i too would like to see it fight and the tactics involved to make it work as advertised) to the MIG-25 of it's ERA. It's almost like comparing any country's Aircrft Carrier of WWII (in it's era) to and american Aircraft carrier of today... As it was said, "If I had this Carrier for WWII, there would not have been a WWII." I just don't know that the MIG-25 Dominated anything in a way the F22 "Could."

 

[Rich]

You're clearly illiterate. After I stated specifically that I didn't mean that the MiG-25 was equal to the F-22 but the performance gap was as wide with the MiG-25 and fighters of the time as it is now with the F-22 and fighters of our time you still twist this and make it seem like i said the MiG-25 is equal to the F-22.

Admin: Text deleted. You need to avoid getting personal. eaf-f16's comments were clearly beyond the pale and a clear blatant violation - but you haven't helped.

The F-22 is no faster then any other fighter, and since the Foxbat couldn't super-cruise, explain this "performance gap"?

The MiG-25 with its powerful radar (thanks to vacum tubes) could shoot down the F-4 before the F-4's radar could even detect the MiG-25. It could have shot F-4's from a distance of over 300km away, so the pilot doesn't even need to have a frame-less cockpit or bubble canopy.

The radar of the Foxbat had a range of 55 miles.http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/mig25.html How does that translate to 300 kms? My benchmark is the 1976 MIG that Belenchko flew to Japan.http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mig-25.htm

NATO had its first detailed look at the MiG-25 when a Soviet pilot defected to Japan with one in September 1976. This exposed its 1950s-era radar and other features that dispelled much of the mythology built up by some Western analysts since the first sighting of the 'Foxbat' in 1967.

And tell me if the F-4 is sooo much more superior to MiG-25 why were the Israelis unable to intercept it after it violated their airspace 20 times, even after they had intelligence telling them the route of the planes and when the flight were going to take place?

I never said the F-4 was "superior". I said it could easily out-turn a Foxbat. And if the MIG-25 is so "superior" then why did the Arabs get slaughtered by the IAF in every air conflict they ever had?

You dont win wars by over-flying an enemy at mach 2.5. You win wars by destroying an enemies air force. A task the MIG-25 was clearly not up to, nor was it up to CAS. It was strictly a one dimensional airplane.