Why PAF didnt get Gripens

[gf0012-aust]

As usuall GF your absolutely rite. but what i am trying to say here is that INdia has the Money and the man power and probably the skill to manufacture most of its Defense articles. but it seems reluctant on developing its own technology more aggresively. if it did relly on it self it may have matched China to some extent.


About the F-16 given to china.this is myth which was never proven. There are double standards here, Israel developed the Dam J-10 based on F-16 and Lavi project. Id don't see any one blocking there defense articles. Pakistan is as important as israel and should be treated as an equal to it. But i guess they all say this Shiet Happens.

adsH, part of the problem is that the F-16 issue is regularly bragged about in some areas. I've seen it on various forums and including Chinese forums where they talk about their gratitude to Pakistan for providing the plane. If it's bull, then it needs to be nipped in the bud. But, as you have seen in here, some people openly think it's ok, and some think that Pakistan should clone Erieye technology if they get it. That sets caution bells ringing for anyone who is worried about it. Admittedly its only a forum, but the issue is that is is a belief process which people accept is ok.

The world isn't a fair place and morals are situationally specific - but that doesn't change the issue that perception is truth. Some people are happier to ignore Israels development of the Lavi as they take an extended view that Israel is trying to survive against 22 members of the arab league - the david and goliath syndrome. Politics is never simple and people have their own ways of defending or justifying their stance. Thats why to try and convince anyone that they are right and you are wrong is an exercise in absolute futility. People are governed by perception and prejudice. You see that in here every day, so you shouldn't really be that shocked. :roll

 

[mysterious]

Absolutely correct Gary! Bingo, I'd say!! I dont think any other person could've said that any better. Ah! Its been days since I read a post 'worth' reading. :smokingc: Bravo!

 

[SABRE]

About the F-16 given to china.this is myth which was never proven. There are double standards here, Israel developed the Dam J-10 based on F-16 and Lavi project. Id don't see any one blocking there defense articles. Pakistan is as important as israel and should be treated as an equal to it. But i guess they all say this Shiet Happens.

Presler's Ammendment:

Sales of F-16 to Pakistan must be blocked for various reasons such as the rumor that they are trying to provide the F-16 technology to Communist (raceist remark) China which in return for the favors by Pakistan is providing them with Nucleat Logistics.

This is in my words, but this is what the rough paper of Presler's ammendment said which blocked the F-16s to PAF in 1990.

Coming to Israel:

F-16s being sold to them at the time even though UNO reveals that Israel might have Nuclear Wapons. Israeli Nuclaer Scientist had already told the press that Isreal Has Nucks.

This is what I call Hipocracy !!!!

Pakistan is more importent than Israel adsH...We do the dirty work for USA, we r the ones who do the laundry with dirty underwares of USA. We are the one who helped them break the USSR. We are the one who are helping them in Afghanistan. We helped start the diplomatic relatons between US and China and what we get is a kick on our behinds.
What has Israel done for US.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Presler's Ammendment:

Sales of F-16 to Pakistan must be blocked for various reasons such as the rumor that they are trying to provide the F-16 technology to Communist (raceist remark) China which in return for the favors by Pakistan is providing them with Nucleat Logistics.

Sabre, IIRC the Pressler Amendments had nothing to do with the issue of suspected F-16 technology transfer to China.

Can you provide a source for that in case I am wrong?

 

[umair]

Well Gary part of that talk has to do with bitterness at being dumped by the States after being(as Reagan put it) "The most allied ally".
I can vouch for the fact that China was given access to the Falcon only after we had exhausted all our efforts to get USA to lift the sanctions(which I feel were uncalled for) in 94-95.Before that China was not even allowed to see the Falcons(though they had tech reps posted in Pakistan before).As the idiom states gf you can expect a cornered person to do the desperate and that's what we did.
As far as cloning the ERIEYE is concerned, I for one see almost 0 probability of it happening.Reason being, the Chinese have already
got the requisite technology with the help of the Russians and Israelis.
Plus we are not likely to do the same thing again.

 

[SABRE]

Presler's Ammendment:

Sales of F-16 to Pakistan must be blocked for various reasons such as the rumor that they are trying to provide the F-16 technology to Communist (raceist remark) China which in return for the favors by Pakistan is providing them with Nucleat Logistics.

Sabre, IIRC the Pressler Amendments had nothing to do with the issue of suspected F-16 technology transfer to China.

Can you provide a source for that in case I am wrong?

I dont know, I was searching PAF+F16 on yahoo when I came through this Artical saying that Presler's ammendment blocked F-16 sales because of the above reasons. But I didnt realy read it properlay. So I wont say that you r wrong nor I would say I am. As for the link is concerened, now who is going to look for it - atleast I am not going to.

 

[adsH]

Presler's Ammendment:

Sales of F-16 to Pakistan must be blocked for various reasons such as the rumor that they are trying to provide the F-16 technology to Communist (raceist remark) China which in return for the favors by Pakistan is providing them with Nucleat Logistics.

Sabre, IIRC the Pressler Amendments had nothing to do with the issue of suspected F-16 technology transfer to China.

Can you provide a source for that in case I am wrong?

I dont know, I was searching PAF+F16 on yahoo when I came through this Artical saying that Presler's ammendment blocked F-16 sales because of the above reasons. But I didnt realy read it properlay. So I wont say that you r wrong nor I would say I am. As for the link is concerened, now who is going to look for it - atleast I am not going to.

sAbre its all muddled up together basically its because of the Nukes. apperntly "air quotes" the chinese gave Pakistan access to there delivery system in exchange for the F-16. this is all very speculative. the F-16 block 15 does not have anything that significant that the Chinese would want copy. they may have war gamed with pakistani pilots(F-16) to check the quality and compare the ability of there platforms against the F-16. I doubt the chinese were ever given one of the most precious Pakistani front-line defense equipment.

Pressler ammendment was mainly doctored to restrict F-16 deliveries to PAF, so Paf would not be able to deploy the Nukes they had developed. But I guess the US underestimated the Abilities of Pakistan. Pakistan developed sophisticated BM technology and they even developed the Ability to overhaul and upgrade there F-16 fleet.

 

[gf0012-aust]

As far as cloning the ERIEYE is concerned, I for one see almost 0 probability of it happening.Reason being, the Chinese have already got the requisite technology with the help of the Russians and Israelis.

Umair, thanks for that. I guess I'd question the fact of China having comparable capability seeing that they were making considerable effort to get Phalcon - they just don't have a platform with the interrogation range and concurrency depth. Israel set very specific conditions on construction of Indias Phalcon equipped aircraft in Russia as they indicated that it was a far more capable system than on the "Mays"

Generally, as a rule of thumb, Russian AWACs have generally had between 2/3rd to 3/4's of the range and concurrency of US and some other "western" systems.

From the Australian Defence Force archives:

Fixed wing developments

The A 50 Mainstay SDRLO (Long Range Detection System) aircraft is based on a stretched Ilyushin IL-76 Transport in widespread service with Soviet Forces combined with an upgraded "Flat Jack" radar system. Developed to replace the TU-126 Moss (a variant of the Bear bomber), the Mainstay first flew in 1980 with about 40 produced by 1992. The Mainstay is not as sophisticated as its western counterpart, the E-3 Sentry, but provides Russian Fighter Regiments with an airborne control capability over both land and water. Mainstays have been used by the Russian Air Force at bases in the Kola Peninsula and for observing Allied air operations during the 1991 Gulf War from bases in what is now Ukraine. In 1994 NATO proposed making the E-3 Sentry and the Beriev Mainstay interoperable to enable Russia to provide AEW&C support to future United Nations or coalition operations.

Rotor developments

Also referred to as the Kamov KA-29 RLD (Radio Lokacionnowo Dozora), the Ka-31 Helix AEW is a development of the Ka-29 Helix ASW and naval transport helicopter in service with the Russian and other former Soviet Navies. The Ka-31 is fitted with the E-801 Oko (Eye) AEW system which features a 6 metre by 1 metre planar array mounted beneath the fuselage which extends in flight to allow 360 degree mechanical scanning of the radar once every ten seconds. To date two Ka-29s have been converted to Ka-31 standard to act as prototypes for a new shipborne AEW helicopter. The two prototypes have undergone operational trials at sea on the Russian carrier "Admiral Kutznyetsov" prior to the aircraft making its debut at the Mosaero Airshow in 1995. Despite interest from the Russian Navy and those of several other nations a lack of funding has effectively suspended the development of this aircraft, as well as its conventional naval AEW counterparts, the AN-71 Madcap and YAK-44.

China has also been negotiating with GEC Marconi to try and develop a long range AEW solution from existing product. Marconis solution are considered to be generally less sophisticated than the Phalcon - so I do doubt that China has made any significant steps in the last 6 months.

 

[VICTORA1]

Sabre,
It is late 80's and Benazir brags one day,'others have bought stuff on credit before us but we are going to pay cash for it---up front'. Big deal. Pakistanis want to play in the big boys league now---well the rules are a little different over here.

If the pakistanis didnot believe that the sanctions would come---it is themselves that they have to blame----and they didnot have any strategy to fall back upon. Strategist in the U S say that pakistan should have made the contract with General Dynamics instead of going through the government and paying the GD for the planes. Gen Dyn would have made sure the sanctions would not take effect.

Once the sanctions took effect, pakistan should have stopped payments on the account and seeked legal action----even though they made all the payments, they should have hired a law firm and filed a claim---but no. When you deal with the americans, you must speak their language. If you can buy on credit, never pay cash for it. If there is a hurdle put in your way, always seek legal action and not through pakistani attorneys for problems in the u s but through a high prifle legal firm in the u s of a----that is the way businesses deal here in the u s. Promises are fine---but legal action is better---if you get the settlement before the case goes to court---well and fine, otherwise let the legal process take care of things. Pakistani management followed through a very poor legal advice for its money----they made one mistake after another and kept blaming the u s for the F 16 debacle and still are.

 

[SABRE]

Sabre,
It is late 80's and Benazir brags one day,'others have bought stuff on credit before us but we are going to pay cash for it---up front'. Big deal. Pakistanis want to play in the big boys league now---well the rules are a little different over here.

If the pakistanis didnot believe that the sanctions would come---it is themselves that they have to blame----and they didnot have any strategy to fall back upon. Strategist in the U S say that pakistan should have made the contract with General Dynamics instead of going through the government and paying the GD for the planes. Gen Dyn would have made sure the sanctions would not take effect.

Once the sanctions took effect, pakistan should have stopped payments on the account and seeked legal action----even though they made all the payments, they should have hired a law firm and filed a claim---but no. When you deal with the americans, you must speak their language. If you can buy on credit, never pay cash for it. If there is a hurdle put in your way, always seek legal action and not through pakistani attorneys for problems in the u s but through a high prifle legal firm in the u s of a----that is the way businesses deal here in the u s. Promises are fine---but legal action is better---if you get the settlement before the case goes to court---well and fine, otherwise let the legal process take care of things. Pakistani management followed through a very poor legal advice for its money----they made one mistake after another and kept blaming the u s for the F 16 debacle and still are.

Benazir dint buy F-16s. General Zia-UlHaq did. Nixon had promissed high tech Jet fighters to Pakistan after 1971 war, he had to go because of thewater gate scandle, but later Reagon filled the promiss on the behalf of Nixon. Reagon gave F-16s to General Zia to fight Afghan n Soviat Air Fighters. During the Afghan war only one PAF F-16 was lost n tht was in a friendly fire.

By the way F-16s came out of now where. We were askin for them but suddenly one fine day Reagon calls n says "you want F-16s you got it" n we paid for the Jets in cash. We dint knew tht Reagon would be the last friendly President to Pakistan.

But I am tellin u one thing, as long there is republican party in USA there is a big chance of Pakistan gettin its F-16s. I just hope Israel doesnt poke its nose in.

 

[umair]

And what has Israel got to do with it?
Sabre seriously you dissapoint me

 

[SABRE]

And what has Israel got to do with it?
Sabre seriously you dissapoint me

All I am saying is that Israel can effect Pakistan's military purchases from USA. Whats so dissapointing in this. Our F-16s were blocked cause we were involved in Nuclare activity & ISrael kept on getting F-16s even after USA it self said that Israel possibly has Nuclear Wapeans. Israel has political effects on USA, Pakistan doesnt.

Other day I visited this Israeli site when I was browsing through Yahoo for any thing new on Gripens. The sites artical head line said "PAKISATAN TO BUY STATE OF THE ART JETS JAS39-GRIPEN FOR SWEDEN, POSES THREAT TO ISRAEL" Now how can Gripen fly from Pakistan to Israel, attcak them and come back. What a joke.
All m saying is Israel sees Pakistan as its enemy, even though Pakistan has not taken any aggressive actions against Israel.

Besides, what are we talkin about; Politics, F-16s, Isreal or "WHY PAF DINT GET GRIPENS"

 

[SABRE]

Presler's Ammendment:

Sales of F-16 to Pakistan must be blocked for various reasons such as the rumor that they are trying to provide the F-16 technology to Communist (raceist remark) China which in return for the favors by Pakistan is providing them with Nucleat Logistics.

Sabre, IIRC the Pressler Amendments had nothing to do with the issue of suspected F-16 technology transfer to China.

Can you provide a source for that in case I am wrong?

I dont know, I was searching PAF+F16 on yahoo when I came through this Artical saying that Presler's ammendment blocked F-16 sales because of the above reasons. But I didnt realy read it properlay. So I wont say that you r wrong nor I would say I am. As for the link is concerened, now who is going to look for it - atleast I am not going to.

sAbre its all muddled up together basically its because of the Nukes. apperntly "air quotes" the chinese gave Pakistan access to there delivery system in exchange for the F-16. this is all very speculative. the F-16 block 15 does not have anything that significant that the Chinese would want copy. they may have war gamed with pakistani pilots(F-16) to check the quality and compare the ability of there platforms against the F-16. I doubt the chinese were ever given one of the most precious Pakistani front-line defense equipment.

Pressler ammendment was mainly doctored to restrict F-16 deliveries to PAF, so Paf would not be able to deploy the Nukes they had developed. But I guess the US underestimated the Abilities of Pakistan. Pakistan developed sophisticated BM technology and they even developed the Ability to overhaul and upgrade there F-16 fleet.

Well if PAF Pilots may have war gamed against that of Chinese jets I dnt think it might have been a big secret. Whats to hide there, countries do it all the time.