Why PAF didnt get Gripens

[Skygrasper]

Well, we have far too many political problems for planes like Gripen or F-16, and far too many financial problems for planes like Mirage 2000-5 or Rafale, hence its virtually immpossible for us.

I suggest we make the JF-17 as good as possible, if its highly unlikely that we'll acquire something new in the future, we should make the JF-17 as good as possible, even if it means increasing the price.

 

[Roger Smith]

Well, we have far too many political problems for planes like Gripen or F-16, and far too many financial problems for planes like Mirage 2000-5 or Rafale, hence its virtually immpossible for us.

I suggest we make the JF-17 as good as possible, if its highly unlikely that we'll acquire something new in the future, we should make the JF-17 as good as possible, even if it means increasing the price.

Well said. I think China is the only country where Pakistan can obtain military hardware. :help

 

[adsH]

thats true i think PAF should calm down on acquisitions JF-17 with its data-link with AEW&C would be an effective platform. I doubt PAF requires a Cold war type High tech jets doctrine, to perform Defensive roles.

 

[Darkwand]

I believe the Swedish government is willing to sell the Gripen to Pakistan they haven't said that they won't they just say that we have tough laws on weapons export. They always say this it's just to keep the pacifists at bay the onluy thing that matters here is if this will hurt defence exports to India more then we gain from Pakistan, and offcource the US needs to aprove the F404 engine that's built on licence.
Getting Aircraft quickly won't be a problem the C/D model currently in production aren't needed by the Swedish airforce at the rate it's produced due to cutbacks so the Airforce would gladly extend the production run in favour of Pakistan for budget planning.

 

[corsair7772]

well in airwafare when defending your own airspace you can fight the attacker on some very faviurable ratios. The AEW systems and our sexsting fleet alone would counter the IAF on a 1 to 4 ratio. Tht is for each for aircraft one aircraft would be needed. And once we get our promised ECMs and datalinks and watever it could be 6 to 1.

The indians dont seem to have a problem with the chinese and french selling us anything but when ever its an american system all hell come lose. This is an acknowledged fact in policy/political analysis.

 

[adsH]

PAF is still waiting-for those F-16's no matter what anyone says here, it's the fact. PAF has spent Millions if not billions on developing overhaul facilities and Training courses for the F-16's, you can't just ask PAF to dump the thought of acquiring F-16 the Grips are the second-most desirable platform for PAF.

I think Sweden wants to sell its Products to PAF, and why shouldn't they others are willing to sell what ever they have, why Shouldn't Sweden sell its Products.

 

[gf0012-aust]

why Shouldn't Sweden sell its Products.

Sweden wouldn't sell spare parts to Australia during the Vietnam War. They are somewhat consistent.

Pakistan and India have been involved in a few "full on" battles. Hence, the reaction for new gear will be even harsher than for an existing customer.

I hazard a guess that you would see the same reaction from the Swedes if India approached them.

 

[adsH]

there is no doubt in my mind that the swedes are neutral. they only choose not to sell there weapons systems to a region where the sale may imbalance or upset the reagional situation. they however do have a policy to support the equipment that they sold. GF look this up please in your spare time. i think these are new rules that they made up for them selves to be more consistent with the rest of the world. i know you guys back there in Australia have had a hard time with the Europeans back stabbing you guys when you needed them the most, but things have changed. and i bet Europe is alot more civilized now.

 

[gf0012-aust]

there is no doubt in my mind that the swedes are neutral. they only choose not to sell there weapons systems to a region where the sale may imbalance or upset the reagional situation. they however do have a policy to support the equipment that they sold. GF look this up please in your spare time. i think these are new rules that they made up for them selves to be more consistent with the rest of the world. i know you guys back there in Australia have had a hard time with the Europeans back stabbing you guys when you needed them the most, but things have changed. and i bet Europe is alot more civilized now.

We still don't look at some countries now because of the way we were embargoed before. When we do buy their gear we make sure the logistics side of it is compensating for any political disconnect that might occur in a crisis. - and they don't provide support if their weapons are used in an active conflict.

They are quite consistent - It's why we are unlikely to ever look at a French frontline fighter again - we mainly sent Canberra bombers to Vietnam as we knew we couldn't be short sheeted on support.

eg, apart from the fact that the Rafale does not meet out performance committments and requirements, it would have to be a he11 of a deal to get us to consider them - let alone buy them.

 

[SABRE]

I believe the Swedish government is willing to sell the Gripen to Pakistan they haven't said that they won't they just say that we have tough laws on weapons export. They always say this it's just to keep the pacifists at bay the onluy thing that matters here is if this will hurt defence exports to India more then we gain from Pakistan, and offcource the US needs to aprove the F404 engine that's built on licence.
Getting Aircraft quickly won't be a problem the C/D model currently in production aren't needed by the Swedish airforce at the rate it's produced due to cutbacks so the Airforce would gladly extend the production run in favour of Pakistan for budget planning.

I heard C/D modle has glitchs. Probably the reason why Sweden doesnt want it and probably the reason for PAF to backoff from the purchase.

 

[corsair7772]

you need links to back your arguements SABRE.

 

[Darkwand]

Sweden allready deliver weapons to India in 1998 India conducted 5 nuclear tests and in 1999 an order was signed with bofors for spares to the Indian Fh77 Howitzers. All that matters in this case is politics there are NO! LAWS! in Sweden concerning exports there are only guidelines for a comitte. I can't see that with such a huge industrial order as 60 Gripen fighters and support systems would be that they would really say no.
Standard procedure for the government here is to be vauge and say that the rules on weapon export are very strict and such and as soon as the order is made they will report on how much progress there is on the human rights front in country "X" and so forth. We sold RBS 15 anti-ship missiles (turned cruise missiled by the croations) in the '80s to Yugoslavia so I really don't think theres a problem with Pakistan, they would get more trouble with a very small order for say Anti-tank mines in my opinion.

I heard C/D modle has glitchs. Probably the reason why Sweden doesnt want it and probably the reason for PAF to backoff from the purchase.

Apperantly that was mostly due to problems with a South-African subcontractor, the Airforce have begun accepting fighters since those problems.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Sweden allready deliver weapons to India in 1998 India conducted 5 nuclear tests and in 1999 an order was signed with bofors for spares to the Indian Fh77 Howitzers. All that matters in this case is politics there are NO! LAWS! in Sweden concerning exports there are only guidelines for a comitte. I can't see that with such a huge industrial order as 60 Gripen fighters and support systems would be that they would really say no.
Standard procedure for the government here is to be vauge and say that the rules on weapon export are very strict and such and as soon as the order is made they will report on how much progress there is on the human rights front in country "X" and so forth. We sold RBS 15 anti-ship missiles (turned cruise missiled by the croations) in the '80s to Yugoslavia so I really don't think theres a problem with Pakistan, they would get more trouble with a very small order for say Anti-tank mines in my opinion.

An anti-tank mine is defensive, a jet fighter or a cruise missile is offensive. Hence one of the reasons why it is not sold to a country that might be under review. If Croatia has converted ASM's to Cruise missiles you can bet that there is no tech transfer made available to them, and that no weapons sales will happen in future without strict caveats (if they decide to sell at all)

You could bet your bottom kroner that Croatia would not have got any weapons from Sweden if they were mass murdering Albanians during the Kosovar crisis. Thats why no country (except Russia) was selling to the Serbs, and why countries were willing to sell to the Croatians. (Look at the history of events at the time)

Similarly, thats why Sweden has not supplied spare parts to offensive weapons if a country is in active conflict and it disagrees with its political policies. Selling equipment to India after Nuke tests seems to indicate a political preference decision.

 

[adsH]

Selling equipment to India after Nuke tests seems to indicate a political preference decision

this is abit unsettling, everyone had sanctions imposed on India after those Nuke tests how did the swedes conclude the Deal without alerting the media. this sends out a bad message, a message that should of not been promoted.

 

[Roger Smith]

Selling equipment to India after Nuke tests seems to indicate a political preference decision

this is abit unsettling, everyone had sanctions imposed on India after those Nuke tests how did the swedes conclude the Deal without alerting the media. this sends out a bad message, a message that should of not been promoted.

It is very unfortunate for Pakistan that each time it faces a brick wall while purchasing military hardware from the West.

 

[Revival_786]

The world isn't a fair place... They say they are good and all but hidden inside is the same old bias and fear.

 

[Skygrasper]

Well, defending your airspace doesn't exactly require fancy planes or anything. It requires planes that are cheap to buy and maintain, 100% operational, available, Multirole, capablity to operate in night, day, all weather. = JF-17!

 

[adsH]

Selling equipment to India after Nuke tests seems to indicate a political preference decision

this is abit unsettling, everyone had sanctions imposed on India after those Nuke tests how did the swedes conclude the Deal without alerting the media. this sends out a bad message, a message that should of not been promoted.

It is very unfortunate for Pakistan that each time it faces a brick wall while purchasing military hardware from the West.

its not about that !! keep pushing a desperate nation to the brink and they would bounce back. its the way the world works. Survival of the fittest its the Jungle rule. Each time they sell something to INdia and they prevent a sale to Pakistan, they in actual fact push pakistan to develop either something that actually counters the technology or does rival it in operation. Its the fact that pakistan is developing alot of its defense articles on its own mainly because almost everyone they buy there equipments of actually do hold back spares or do put sanctions on them. India does not have have an urgency to develop its military technology basically it hasn't suffered form its main suppliers from holding back at time of war. India hasn't realized that self sufficiency is more important then Buying high tech fighter AC, which won't be able to fly if Russia stopped support. Look at the UK it has one of the biggest Defense firms in the world by my count i think the 3rd largest Defense article manufacturer. What is interesting is that its not just the firm that is keen on developing technology to defend the Nation but its appart of the Governments agenda too, we have a realization that self sufficiency is vital for the survival of the UK. we have to matter in the world, and being ignored or relying on someone else at the time of need is unacceptable. WE can buy all of our equipments from the US if we ever needed too but then we would loose a certain degree of control over our defense.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Its the fact that pakistan is developing alot of its defense articles on its own mainly because almost everyone they buy there equipments of actually do hold back spares or do put sanctions on them.

No, I'd argue that a high degree of the reticence to sell is due to the fiasco of providing China with the F-16 for evaluation. That was a singularly risky move that will haunt Pakistans opportunity to get ToT with a lot of countries. I'm not saying that it's right or fair, but it is a fact of life. China has a bad reputation for the failure to protect patents and ignore IPO rulings (just in general commerce, let alone military technology). As such, there is minimal trust that Chinese companies will honor IP controls and they have habitually circumvented them by submitting variations on a products IP. Sometimes (in the case of tools and tooling) they are outright copies. Until the Chinese Govt addresses these failings, then mistrust will be paramount.

India does not have have an urgency to develop its military technology basically it hasn't suffered form its main suppliers from holding back at time of war.

No, not true. Both the UK and France suspended spares to India. Their main equipment supplier was Russia. The issue of whether the Russians restricted sales as a legacy of an international embargo is a moot point.

India hasn't realized that self sufficiency is more important then Buying high tech fighter AC, which won't be able to fly if Russia stopped support.

No. not entirely correct. Since the demise of the Soviet Union and especially in the last 2 years India has expanded upon its autonomous and independant development projects. Russia counted for over half of her weapons supplies prior to last year. This year Israel passed Russia in absolute dollar value for equipment purchases. France has also made inroads in traditionally Russian dominated areas such as submarines. India (like China) is reducing Russian committment, buying more hi-tech EW gear from Israel, and France. In Indias case they are also looking at US platforms like the Orion as the Il-38 is passed its effective use by date as far as platform integrity goes.

Look at the UK it has one of the biggest Defense firms in the world by my count i think the 3rd largest Defense article manufacturer. What is interesting is that its not just the firm that is keen on developing technology to defend the Nation but its appart of the Governments agenda too

Yes, and thats because all of the largest most aggressive defence technology players are owned by private industry. Govt run defence companies are inefficient and a burden on the tax payer unless there is a captive AAA client with a persistent requirement. (eg China)

 

[adsH]

No. not entirely correct. Since the demise of the Soviet Union and especially in the last 2 years India has expanded upon its autonomous and independant development projects. Russia counted for over half of her weapons supplies prior to last year. This year Israel passed Russia in absolute dollar value for equipment purchases. France has also made inroads in traditionally Russian dominated areas such as submarines. India (like China) is reducing Russian committment, buying more hi-tech EW gear from Israel, and France. In Indias case they are also looking at US platforms like the Orion as the Il-38 is passed its effective use by date as far as platform integrity goes.

As usuall GF your absolutely rite. but what i am trying to say here is that INdia has the Money and the man power and probably the skill to manufacture most of its Defense articles. but it seems reluctant on developing its own technology more aggresively. if it did relly on it self it may have matched China to some extent.


About the F-16 given to china.this is myth which was never proven. There are double standards here, Israel developed the Dam J-10 based on F-16 and Lavi project. Id don't see any one blocking there defense articles. Pakistan is as important as israel and should be treated as an equal to it. But i guess they all say this Shiet Happens.