Why PAF didnt get Gripens

[SABRE]

Re: Why we didnt get Gripens

ISRAEL'S CONCERNS OVER PAKISTAN'S PURCHASE OF GRIPENS.

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http://maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=9420

Pakistan to buy Gripen fighters from Sweden

Poses threat to Israel, since state of the art Swedish multi-task aircraft could reach Israel from bases in southwestern Pakistan.
Maariv International



The Pakistani media covering Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf state visit to Scandinavia reports that he has approached the Swedish government with a request to purchase a variety of military equipment. Swedish officials declined comment.

The main item on his shopping list is 5 squadrons (60 aircraft) of JAS-39 Gripens, considered by military observers to be at least the equal of the most advanced version of the F-16, the comparable US aircraft.

The Gripen is a frontline multi-role, swing-role supersonic (Mach 1.15 at sea level, Mach 2 at high altitude) aircraft, and is considered a match for any sophisticated fourth-generation combat aircraft. Having a Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) system powered by Volvo RM12 engine, Gripen can attain a maximum speed of Mach 2. The aircraft has a digital fly-by-wire flight control system, which further enhances its maneuverability.

Several countries, including Hungary, South Africa and the Czech Republic, have already purchased the NATO-compatible export version, which is being marketed jointly by BAE Systems and Saab.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has been holding advanced negotiations with Saab Scania, and most of the details of the $2.7 billion deal have already been worked out. A final agreement between the Pakistan government and Gripen International is likely at the end of month, as the Swedish government is expected to approve the sale.
Until now the PAF has flown primarily US made aircraft. The decision to buy European shows that Pakistan realizes it is no longer regarded by the US as a reliable regional ally, and even more importantly, no longer sees itself as such. This is worrying, since it could mean that Musharraf has decided he needs the support of Islamic militants at home more than that of the US.


Puts Israel in range

The purchase, if it goes through could alter the strategic balance between Israel and its Moslem foes. The Gripen, with its 3,000 km. range could reach Israel from bases in southwestern Pakistan. Pakistan regards Israel as an unfriendly country, and has been extremely concerned by the growing military alliance between Jerusalem and Delhi. The fact that Pakistan, a nuclear-armed Moslem state will, for the first time, have a front line state of the art aircraft capable of reaching Israel means that the IAF may be facing a new strategic challenge.


Basic performance data

Length: 14.1 m
Span: 8.4 m
Height: 4.5 m
Normal take off weight: 8500 kg in fighter configuration
Payload: 5300 kg
Fuel, internal: 3000 litres approx (my estimate based on other,
External: 3800 litres official, numbers)
Max take off weight: 14000 kg
Range: 3000 km ferry range
Max speed: M 1.15 (1400 km/h) at sea level, close to Mach 2 at altitude
Acceleration: M 0.5 to M 1.1 at low altitude in 30 s
Turn performance: 9 G sustained, G onset rate at least 6 G/s (1-9 G in 1.2 s), min -3 G,
20+ deg/s sustained, 30 deg/s instantaneous
Climb rate: <100 s from brake release to 10 km altitude
180 s approx to 14 km
Ground turn around: <10 min with a crew of six

 

[srirangan]

Dude. If he let off such information he'll be fired and prolly be investigated upon.

China has no interest in NK. Pakistan provides China with lot of help.

Now tell me you are kiddin'. China has no interest in NK is the great piece of BS I've heard on these forums. China proped up NK to counter Japan and balance Taiwan and give the US another headache. China has a supreme interest in NK.

Pakistan provides aid to China? Are you kiddin' me? Why will China need help from a country that's dependent on foreign aid itself?

 

[SABRE]

Dude. If he let off such information he'll be fired and prolly be investigated upon.

China has no interest in NK. Pakistan provides China with lot of help.

Now tell me you are kiddin'. China has no interest in NK is the great piece of BS I've heard on these forums. China proped up NK to counter Japan and balance Taiwan and give the US another headache. China has a supreme interest in NK.

Pakistan provides aid to China? Are you kiddin' me? Why will China need help from a country that's dependent on foreign aid itself?

I knw I should have wrote this in details. I also u knw that u would be the 1st one to counter Sri. Anyways:

Help doesnt mean Aid

No interst in NK means: Not the same interest China holds for Pakistan. China cant rely on NK when it comes to its defence but it can on Pakistan. Pakistan is China's open gate to the west, NK is the Gate which opens no where. China has learned alot about Western technology with what Pakistan has provided with. Its a pitty that Pakistan which has excess to Western Equipment has failed to do so like Chian and looks forward to China to learn abt it, make a similar version for it self and Pakistan.


From now lets stick with the topic. You have a habit of driving even the smallest of things into Political discussion Sri.

 

[srirangan]

No matter what you say, you're not ganna convince me or any rational member that the person incharge would give out intricate details on defence negotiations to some guy who ask's questions via email. Sorry.

Ohh and btw it was you who started the China needs aid from Pak topic. Since China's entry into the WTO it don't need Pak or any other country to get its products into the western markets. Your arguments aren't convincing.

 

[corsair7772]

oh for cryin out aloud sirri, just give the guy a pat on the back for atleast gettin us this info. I dont see you making much contributions around here anyway. :roll

Ur absolutely right about china becoming more independent from pakistan but then it has involved itself in many industrial projects which also have a strategic dimension in pakistan. Like Gwadar and Chashnup for example. No country becomes a superpower without the support of the third world. thats why it sells it arms around. To get thirld world support. Thats wat its all about. Not about the market but about strategic importance and ambitions.

 

[srirangan]

China making invesments in Pak does not equal SABRE's claim of "China needing Pak".

Ohh yeah here more dude, me making crummy excuses and whinin' to hide the short coming's of my countries diplomacy does not constitute "contributions". I think and many will see that he's just providing an excuse so that Pak doesn't look awkward after been refused the Gripens.

It's common sense that no one will divulge military negotitions' details via the email to someone they don't even know.

I dont see you making much contributions around here anyway

That's a direct personal attack on me. Sad to see such a bigoted narrow minded moderator resorting to personal attacks. This forum deserve's better.

 

[corsair7772]

look whose attacking. listen kid. we all work hard here. sabres gettin us e-mails u wudnt have gotten us for a millenia. Ill only ask u 2 appreciate the effort not spit on it.

 

[webmaster]

Thanks for the info Sabre. Good to see members going out of their way to get the info.

Get back to the topic. "why we didn't get the gripens" not china or whatever the Freaking hell some of you are trying to discuss. :mad

 

[SABRE]

No matter what you say, you're not ganna convince me or any rational member that the person incharge would give out intricate details on defence negotiations to some guy who ask's questions via email. Sorry.

Ohh and btw it was you who started the China needs aid from Pak topic. Since China's entry into the WTO it don't need Pak or any other country to get its products into the western markets. Your arguments aren't convincing.

Believe it or not, its up to you.

And BTW I never said "AID" I said "HELP". China need Pakistan's Help. I dont think I have to tell a well educated Computer Guy how to read and distinguish between "AID" and "HELP". & it was you who started Pakistan China in the first place here on this thread by saying "China wont sell Pakistan J-10".
(Now stick with da topic will ya, I have no desire to have a personal war with you)

 

[webmaster]

Get back to the topic. "why we didn't get the gripens" not china or whatever the Freaking hell some of you are trying to discuss. :mad

:nono

One more off topic reply from anyone and he goes into temp ban for one full week (DT's week is 8 days).

 

[ahussains]

If we didnt get the Grips, we try to focus on Russia by having some Migs or Su or try to Invole in an halted project with Arab Funding.

If Russia is ready to sell RD 93 engine for FC 1 and also make a TANK deal we try to buy some used Planes from Ukraine and purchase parts from Russia . and in comming 5 years India will prefer US and Europe Equipments and dont go for the Russians . know they are just time passing with Russians

What u guys Say....... :help

 

[SABRE]

If we didnt get the Grips, we try to focus on Russia by having some Migs or Su or try to Invole in an halted project with Arab Funding.

If Russia is ready to sell RD 93 engine for FC 1 and also make a TANK deal we try to buy some used Planes from Ukraine and purchase parts from Russia . and in comming 5 years India will prefer US and Europe Equipments and dont go for the Russians . know they are just time passing with Russians

What u guys Say....... :help

Lets just leave out Indo-Russia relations shell we.

Why we dont get arms supply from Russia? Its quite simple. Cause India can effect the supply and we would be stuck like F-16s.
About Gripens you should read the thread from the begining and specialy my emails. We havent been denied Gripens cause we have not yet officialy asked for them. I just found out FS Riaz Khukhar had discussed the topic but the discussion was just 4 few mins they quickly moved on to trade and other co-oporations. I have alos confirmed that Swedish Defence Minister said in a pres confrence that he has no such request in the drawers. Perwaiz Musharaf asked for AWACs, we discussed them. He agreed to our terms and we decided to sell them. SAAB2000 are being directly sold bu SAAB to Pakistan.
The Key point is niether SAAB nor Swedish government is saying that they have denied Gripens to Pakistan.
On the other hand I have also found that Pakistan is suppose to officialy bid for Gripens this month(July 2004).

I will mail Director Communications of Gripen International as some thing new develops, till than all of us+ PAF have to wait and watch.

 

[srirangan]

I will mail Director Communications of Gripen International as some thing new develops, till than all of us+ PAF have to wait and watch.

:lolol

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For the PAF Mirage's or the J10 seem to be the only realistic option. Now that India has the Mirage's w/ ToT, is that also ruled out? :?

 

[pezfez]

sri said: "Now that India has the Mirage's w/ ToT, is that also ruled out?"


none of which is confirmed, no hard proof, just speculation

 

[pezfez]

so an evaluating visit turns into a buying visit for the paki media

paki media is really screwed up

funny, never got planes that were never asked for

 

[srirangan]

sri said: "Now that India has the Mirage's w/ ToT, is that also ruled out?"


none of which is confirmed, no hard proof, just speculation

i agree. but will PAF take the risk and go for the mirages?

 

[SABRE]

sri said: "Now that India has the Mirage's w/ ToT, is that also ruled out?"


none of which is confirmed, no hard proof, just speculation

i agree. but will PAF take the risk and go for the mirages?

Oh ya PAF is going to buy Mirage2000-5 sooner or later, but not as primary but secondary Front liner Jet. PAF is second airforce in the world which knows what Mirage are capabale of doing, specialy mirage 3 and 5. PAF's Upgraded versions of mirage 3 and 5 are pretty good, so good that France is also upgrading its old Mirages in similar way. They have capability to ingage with Mirage2000-5 but the Fact is Mirage2000-5 are still a better versions, so PAF is going to start buying them once they get their primary front liner. My advice would be to buy Rafale as primary jet with mirages as secondary. Both jets will give each other great support.
It must also be noted that Pakistan is one of the first country to use Mirages in a full combat and war scenario.
J-10 is not the only option. German's have lifted its ban on selling high tech arms to Pakistan, which has opened doors for EF-2000. Rafale is also on the list. But I think Pakistan ought to buy J-10 even if they get some other Jets. We have no trouble with China on Finance terms. We can get J-10 now and pay for them on account or on installments.
So I guess atleast these three Jets r going to be in PAF inventory:

1-J10
2-Mirage2000-5
3-JF-17

PAKI used to be a bad word for Pakistanis now it isnt. It has become rather COOL. We take the word "PAKI" as Australians take the word "AUSI".
For Bhindian I dont know. If u divide it, it goes like this= Bhindi(a vegetable)+ Indian. But I hope I am wrong cause unlike some ppl I dnt believe in insulting any nation by giving them odd names. Now lets discuss the topic shell we.

 

[jupitor]

sri said: "Now that India has the Mirage's w/ ToT, is that also ruled out?"


none of which is confirmed, no hard proof, just speculation

i agree. but will PAF take the risk and go for the mirages?

hmmmmmmmm

 

[lalith prasad]

you have to take into consideration the cost ef2000 costa around 75million and the rafale costs 60 million .

 

[jupitor]

sri said: "Now that India has the Mirage's w/ ToT, is that also ruled out?"


none of which is confirmed, no hard proof, just speculation

i agree. but will PAF take the risk and go for the mirages?

lolz
hay man be realistic u all are talking as if u just wish it an its gonna happen for u or as if all those countries are requesting u to buy those aircraft from them.
its a pitty that we r not gonna have any fourth generation fighter for next few years may be the J-10 flys out for us and that too is not 4th generation aircraft.
so just pray that our engineers might come up with some stuff of their own
GOD bless PAKISTAN
n
PAKISTAN AIR FORCE