Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[Jacob]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Well,it doesn't matter which aircraft the PAF buys.The Indian Sukhois are way too good.

perhaps the only aircraft that can challenge the Indian SU-30 MKI is the F-22 Raptor (......no even the eurofighter can't).But Pakistan would never be able to afford the Raptor.It is way too expensive for them : .I think PAF ought to try for FC-1s & J-10s.


Admin: Please read the rules relating to posting conduct. This is considered to be a baited response. I have edited out unnecessary comments.

Please show respect to countries and display the appropriate courtesy in here.

 

[iceman_f15]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

reply to gf0012-aust

I didn't mean to offend anybody...I have read abt the DACT.. US which uses Red Flag training in which US pilots fly by handicaping the true performance of the plane and they had t o contend with 10 - 12 planes and INDIANS had home advantage. But don' t u agree to the fact that Su- 30 MKI is a very superb aircraf which is currenty the best any airforce can have...and its features are unparallled expect for F-22 and JSF. and that too at the cost far less than what F-16 or F-15 costs...

Here is the Web link which will give some mor info to justify:

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/comparison-f16-f18-su30-1.html

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/comparison-f15-su30-1.html

http://indianaf.tripod.com/su30mki.htm

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

reply to gf0012-aust

I didn't mean to offend anybody...I have read abt the DACT.. US which uses Red Flag training in which US pilots fly by handicaping the true performance of the plane and they had t o contend with 10 - 12 planes and INDIANS had home advantage.

You haven't offended anyone, I just wanted to make sure that you were aware of the rules that apply in some DACT. Sometimes people get very excited about how their airforce performs in such things as this, and they don't understand that it is scripted somewhat. So no offence taken by me anyway.

But don' t u agree to the fact that Su- 30 MKI is a very superb aircraf which is currenty the best any airforce can have...and its features are unparallled expect for F-22 and JSF. and that too at the cost far less than what F-16 or F-15 costs...

I agree it's a superb aircraft for some airforces - but my experience with Russian jets is coloured by the fact that their maintenance handling - especially their engines is usually 25% availability compared to a western engine. That means that even though the engine per se is cheaper - you will pay for it in the end. One of the singular critical issues for a fighter/combat aircarft is up time - as it effects a sortie rate. If your aircraft are being handled at a 200-400% greater rate - then that impacts upon their combat effectiveness.

If I was an air marshall and I had to pick an Su-30 it would not only be because of the suite change over (like the MKI), but I'd also dump the engines - or as the Chinese have realised, rebuild those engines to far more robust and critical tolerances.

That of course is a personal view. But it's based on my exposure to aircraft such as the Mig29, Su-27, Mig-21, Su-23.

Out of all the Flankers, I think the MKI is the best of breed - but combat is not just about a platform selection - it's about an integrated response and capability.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I for one, Iceman DON'T think there is one "best" combat aircraft. Do you actually mean a fighter? Strike fighter or pure air to air? SEAD aircraft, ground attack or electronic warfare?

The SU-30 is a good strike fighter, nothing more, nothing less. Russian aircraft don't exactly have the best combat record when measured against "Western Aircraft" either, and I won't even mention, such things as mean time between failures for Russian equipment compared to Western equipment.

It is not necessarily the best and only has "paper" statistics to verify it's performance. It has not (to the best of my knowledge) actually engaged in real combat.

However I believe it is a good aircraft, however it is a generation behind aircraft such as Rafale and Eurofighter, design wise and almost 2 generations behind the F-22. The capability of the SU-30 will not compare in anyway to the capability of the F-22.

Btw, the first USAF operational F-22 squadron, has recently received it's first operational F-22 Raptor. IOC is scheduled for 2005...

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Btw, the first USAF operational F-22 squadron, has recently received it's first operational F-22 Raptor. IOC is scheduled for 2005...

Highsea might correct me here, but there are over 40 flyaway F-22's already.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Yep, but they are all at Nellis, undergoing flight testing, development etc. The first "operational" Raptor has only just been delivered to the 27th FS, the first operational F-22 squadron. The squadron will achieve IOC in mid to late 05...

Btw have you seen any Red Flag pics yet from the current exercise? It seems the USAF is flying F-22's in parts of the exercise. I wonder if any results might be published?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I do have some pics of Nellis, but no F-22's. One of the journos I know has just come back from there and managed to get some pretty good shots of some of the aircraft.

The USAF is still using some of the F-21's as aggressors, I was under the impression that they had retired them.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_18-11-2004_pg1_6

Pentagon unveils $1.2b proposed weapons deals with Pakistan

WASHINGTON: The Pentagon notified Congress on Tuesday about three proposed arms deals with Pakistan worth up to $1.2 billion.

The Defence Security Cooperation Agency, which handles foreign arms sales for the Pentagon, said it planned to sell Pakistan eight P-3C Orion surveillance aircraft, valued at up to $970 million, and 2,000 TOW-2A missiles and 14 TOW-2A Fly-to-Buy missiles in a deal valued at $82 million.

Pakistan had also requested the sale of six PHALANX rapid-fire 20-millimeter guns for surface ships, and the upgrade of six additional gun systems, a contract worth up to $155 million, the agency said. Lawmakers now have 30 days to block the proposed arms sales, but defence officials and congressional sources said that was considered extremely unlikely.

The Pentagon said the proposed arms agreements would help “improve the security of a friendly country that has been and continues to be an important force for economic progress in South Asia and the global war on terrorismâ€.

It said the P-3C aircraft, built by Lockheed Martin Corp, would improve Pakistan’s ability to restrict the movement of militants along its southern border, in particular, and improve border security everywhere.

The Raytheon Co TOW missiles had recently been employed in the tribal areas of Pakistan, giving the Pakistani government new tools in its fight to combat terrorism, DSCA said.

Raytheon, based in Waltham, Massachusetts, also produces the PHALANX gun systems, which DSCA said Pakistan would use to beef up the defences of its surface ships against inbound aircraft, missiles, and fast-moving surface craft. This March, Pakistan was named a major non-NATO US ally, making it easier for it to acquire US weapons. reuters


_________________________________________________________________

F-16s should be coming later on. :

 

[ashoaib]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Bush admin ambivalent on F-16 issue

By Khalid Hasan

WASHINGTON: The Bush administration is sending ambivalent signals as to whether it will sell F-16 aircraft to Pakistan or not.

The reply most frequently given is that no decision has so far been taken. According to a congressional source who spoke to India Abroad, “We still cannot get a straight answer from the administration whether such a sale is on or off.†The source complained that instead of coming “flat out whether such a sale is being considered or not, State Department officials and those at the Pentagon continue to be circumspect, telling us, ‘No decision has been made.’ â€

Meanwhile, Congressman Joseph Crowley, a co-chairman of the India Caucus, in a letter sent to President Bush, writes, “These military aircraft are not suitable to fighting the war against terrorism in Pakistan, hence my curiosity (as to) why the sale of such aircraft has been extensively discussed. I would, therefore, appreciate if you could elucidate the situation for me. Does the administration have any plans to sell F-16s to Pakistan? If so, for what reasons?â€

Another India backer in Congress, Rep. Frank Pallone, the founder and co-chairman of the India Caucus, who recently wrote to the White House on the same lines as Rep. Crowley, has yet to receive a reply. He had expressed his “deep concern†and “extreme†disappointment about Pakistan being granted the major Non-NATO ally status since it allowed Islamabad to purchase military equipment not sold to a country with an undemocratic government. He had also asked for “democracy sanctions†to be imposed on Pakistan. He urged the President to take a “strong position†on the F-16 issue. With the arrival of the new Pakistani ambassador Jehangir Karamat, the bid to obtain F-16s is likely to receive a fillip, given the new envoy’s “good contacts†at the Pentagon.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_20-11-2004_pg7_3

 

[super7fc1]

Pakistan will purchase 18-25 f-16 in early 2005

Janes defence weekly current issue
Pakistan hopes to finalise the purchase of 18 to 25 F-16 multirole fighter aircraft from the US during the first half of 2005, senior Pakistani officials have said. This follows the US Department of Defense notifying Congress on 15 November of its intention to sell Islamabad an unrelated Foreign MilitarySale(more detail see http://jdw.janes.com)... 19-Nov-2004,
last september at IDEAS 2004 lochheed martin & Ratheon show its AMRAAM 120C5 BVR missile , Sniper ex/ Pantera advance targeting pod, Longshot standoff weapons delivery kits for PAFs F-16s
( flight international report) Pakistan's army is planning a major revamp of its helicopter fleet, including the purchase of new attack, scout and utility aircraft, to be funded primarily using aid from US government. bell helicopter is poised to be the main benefactor of the fleet renewal process, having sold AH-1 cobras, UH-1hueys and Bell 206B jet rangers to Pakistan before the imposition of a US arms ban that was lifted in 2001.
However, Sikorsky is also trying to break into the recently reopened market with its UH 60 Black Hawk utility and madical evacuation helicopter , and is expected to soon appoint a local agent to lead its sales campaign.
The overhaul will be made possible by the US government's promise of 1.5 billion in military aid over the next five years in return for islamabad's continued military support along the Afghan border. The army's estimated $400 million share includes around $200 million for the lease of 26 bell 412s, $100 million for 40 new bell 407s, $60 million to acquire and refurbish 20 cobras drawn from the US excess inventory and $30 million to refurbish Pakistani 20 cobras, (Lockheed martin and Raytheon display Hawkeye XR target sight system see www.missilesandfirecontrol.com new TOW missiles and hellfire 11 missile for cobras) ,
A further purchase 10 Eurocopter AS350 Ecureuils will be funded from pakistan's national defence budget , with these to replace the army's Aerospatial SA315 Lamas and SA316 Alouette llls ( Eurocopter display its Ecureuils helicopter with pakistani camuflagge at IDEAS 2004).
The $1.5 billion will also fund a Mid Life Update to airforce's 32 Lockheed Martin f-16AB fighters and the purchase of 6 or 8 additional used maritime P3C Orion maritime petrol aircraft for the navy( Lockheed Martin display its Orion advance version MMA with pakistani colore scheme for PN's Orion upgrade programme)
Pakistan is expected to spend a further $1. 5 -2 billion on military modernisation over the next five years, with the bulk of this on Chinese equipment, such as Chengdu JF-17 and K-8 trainer aircraft.
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[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan will purchase 18-25 f-16 in early 2005

yeah the news is some what not so shocking. Some parts were predictable others were already posted in different parts.
Anyways the news is not in complete detail. I mean what variant of F-16 Pak is going to buy.

Anyways the janes link is not working. Please fix that. The news doesnt seem like a false report but its still better that we c it coming from the lions mouth. So fix the jaines link.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Pakistan will purchase 18-25 f-16 in early 2005

according to flight international the US has offered pakistan 18 F-16C/D with AMRAAM and JDAM capibility for now.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

according to flight international the US has offered pakistan 18 F-16C/D with AMRAAM and JDAM capibility for now.

18 of what block does any one knows that. All I know is a roumar that these 18 are already built n r in LH-Ms inventory, cant find which block is it 50 or 60.

 

[ashoaib]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

block 60s are highly unlikely. those will be 40 or 50

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

yes i agree. i doubt that they will be above block 50. anyway we get what we get.

 

[ashoaib]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

US still not decided whether to give Pakistan F-16s or not, US new sectary of state Condolesa Rice told Indian foreign sectary Shiyam Saran . In this meeting India show its concerns about the arms sell of 1.3 billion dollar to Pakistan but Condolesa Rice don’t comment about it.

http://www.newspk.com/update.php#13

unfortunately the source is in urdu

 

[ashoaib]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Objections to US arms rejected

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Saturday rejected Indian objections to a proposed 1.3 billion dollar US arms sale to Islamabad, saying its “modest†defence requirements should not irk New Delhi. “Indian comments were unwarranted,’ a Foreign Ministry spokesman said in a statement. India on Friday said New Delhi had conveyed its concern to Washington over US plans to sell a range of sophisticated weapons to Pakistan. “It is incomprehensible that India, which has a massive weaponisation and weapon acquisition programme, should object to Pakistan’s modest defence requirements,†the Pakistani spokesman said. “Pakistan is ready to engage India purposefully on question of strategic and conventional restraint.†“We have made proposals for establishing a stability and strategic restraint regime in South Asia,†he said. afp

 

[highsea]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Yep, but they are all at Nellis, undergoing flight testing, development etc. The first "operational" Raptor has only just been delivered to the 27th FS, the first operational F-22 squadron. The squadron will achieve IOC in mid to late 05...

The first 40 Raptors were delivered to Edwards, then split between Tyndall and Nellis. The Nellis AC are being used for developing tactics by the USAF Weapons School. The Tyndall Raptors are the training center for all Raptor pilots and maintainers. They are fully combat capable as far as software and weapons.

The "First Operational Raptor" (tail No. 4041) has not actually been delivered to Langley, it is still at Marietta awaiting final touches. Delivery will take place around April 2005.

according to flight international the US has offered pakistan 18 F-16C/D with AMRAAM and JDAM capibility for now.

If they are to have AMRAAM and JDAM capability, that would indicate Block 50/52.

Not to say Block 40's couldn't be fitted for these, there were some Block 40's that were updated for AMRAAM's in the Sure Strike Program, and all C/D's have the wiring and structural mods to carry them, but not all of them got the software. Most Block 40's used AIM-7 Sparrows and Paveway's. They could be upgraded with the digital GPS/INS system and some software updates for JDAMS, but I don't know how many were actually modified for this.

Since the current production version is Block 50/52, and assuming AMRAAM and JDAM capabilities, I would say most likely scenario is that these would be 50/52's.

 

[ashoaib]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I wish those will be block 50 or above.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I think the report is incomplete. Pak wants to build a Surplus of F-16s no doubt. 18 new wont do that (m assuming here that they r block 50). Later Pak will try to aquire more of the new version in future but that will cost alot. So Pak must have asked USA to allow Belgium to sell its Block A/B upgraded versions to Pak. They would come cheap n Pak will feel easy to build up a surplus of F-16s.
Pak must atleast have 200 F-16s. let 50 to 80 of them be Block 50/52. Rest be upgraded Belgiun Block A/B.
About one sqdn of Block 60 should be aquired slowly, one by one.