What rank does the PAF stand at now?

[fieldmarshal]

a couple of years back janes def interviewed the u.s air chief, he was asked which is the best airfoece in the world........he goes" the usaf as the other two airforces( i.e isreal and Pakistan) that could be one were trained by us".
Now thats a complimant.........by some one who knows wt hes talkin bout

Admin: try and find the link for this and edit it into your post

 

[Sarmad]

Pakistan Airforce must be considered in the top ten airforces of the world on the basis of its past performance and training procedures.
Way back in 1999, i was posted in the FT-5 detatchment of the training wing as a student. As the Kargil war broke out, our detatchment started to train on war footing. We had DACT with our opponents being the F-6, F-7, Mirage 3 and even F-16s. We were trained for a low level air-to-air combat and believe me that while flying in a Mig-17U [FT-5] we outfought the F-6s and Mirages, and even won twice against the F-7MPs. This shows our low level of training since FT-5 was the first jet fighter we ever flew. You can think about our senior pilots who had quite a lot of flying hours on the most modern fighters. Espacially the pilots of the F-16, F-7 and Mirage units had the experience since they had flown against the Mig-29s, F-15s, F-16s, Mirage 2000s and Mig-23s of the friendly countries in DACT.
When PAF was tested in 1965, its proved its mettle by stopping and inflicting serious damage to the more modern, advanced and large IAF, while it remained unscathed loosing only 16 aircraft in all.
Again in 1971 PAF saved Pakistan from humiliation when again it flew for the defence for its country. At this time the total amount of PAF aircraft numbered less than the total no. of front line IAF aircraft but still it performed well. It stopped the indian advance in East Pakistan till the last moment when it was in a no win situation, since the IAF outnumbered PAF both in quality and quantity. Even in the western sector PAF flew important strikes which kept the indians at bay, otherwise the western sector would also have faced a certain defeat. Though Pakistan lost this war, PAF had lost 34 aircraft but it also downed 102 IAF aircraft. The result of the PAF failure was not that they were inferior but it was due to internal situations i.e. the bengali factor and the main commander, Gen. Yahya Khan was incapable of fighting this war. The PAF had fought on its own during this war with only one objective; conserve, survive and defend. This it did properly.
Then during the Afghan war, PAF again saw action against the Russians and shot down half a dozen of Russian/ Afghan intruders without loosing any aircraft to the enemy.
PAF pilots have flown as instructors in the Arab countries and have performed extremely well against the Israel airforce. PAF pilots while flying Hunters and Mig-21s have downed a few Mirages and Super Mysteres without loosing a single PAF pilot or aircraft flown by PAF pilots.
Though PAF is not that much advanced as its enemies, it knows how to deal with them in their language and as far as it is training is concerned, its been rated as the best. According to my opinion PAF should be rated among the top ten airforces in the world.

 

[Red aRRow]

Nice points Sarmad.

 

[corsair7772]

yea, the PAF having to make do with less has alwayz been able to use its resources efficiently.

 

[mukul]

In which Arab Isreal war PAk pilots flew Arab planes ? ... By the way ....how can you say that Pak lost on XX and India lost XXX no of planes [Mod edit: Please argue with some evidence and without getting into inflammatory slinging matches. Thank you]
Don;t forget to mention when IAF Mig21 flew and shoot down PN marinetime planne....

Where was PAF at that time ?
Was Mig21 on the PAF station Karachi Radar?
IS any PAF plane flew in defence to save PN plane?

WHat about the operationl readyness of PAF?

If PAk version was taken into account that PN plane flying close to boader but on the PAK side then when Indian Mig21 enter within 10 Km of boader , what was PAF karachi Radar doing?

If The PAF radar didn't pick up the Mig , then PAF has the serious problems ahead.

and If PAF rader knew about the PAF, then why no PAF plane fly off to save that plane.?

In both cases the PAF proved to be sitting duck.

ANd If Indian version taken into account , that PN plane flew to indian side then , PAF can take rest , but PAK govt. already declaired that PN plane was on PAK side of boader....

PAf then have operational rediness problem and how come any airfoce which can't even see its airspace can be the best airforce

 

[Red aRRow]

In which Arab Isreal war PAk pilots flew Arab planes ?

The six day war in 1967 where PAF pilots downed 10 Israeli planes without any losses.
http://www.scramble.nl/pk.htm

 

[Red aRRow]

Where was PAF at that time ?
Was Mig21 on the PAF station Karachi Radar?
IS any PAF plane flew in defence to save PN plane?

WHat about the operationl readyness of PAF?

.........................

You are basing your judgement on one incident in which two IAF Mig 21s ambushed an unarmed plane on a training flight within Pakistani airspace and that also during peacetime. :cop
The Atlantique was flying inside Pakistani territory near the Indian border during peace time and thus the PAF was not flying any CAPs. Karachi is located hundreds of kilometres to the west of the position where the plane was criminally shot down as a revenge tactic by the IAF for losing its planes and pilots in the Kargil conflict, and as such by the time the PAF realized the treachery the IAF pilots had already ran away.

 

[mukul]

Where was PAF at that time ?
Was Mig21 on the PAF station Karachi Radar?
IS any PAF plane flew in defence to save PN plane?

WHat about the operationl readyness of PAF?

.........................

You are basing your judgement on one incident in which two IAF Mig 21s ambushed an unarmed plane on a training flight within Pakistani airspace and that also during peacetime. :cop
The Atlantique was flying inside Pakistani territory near the Indian border during peace time and thus the PAF was not flying any CAPs. Karachi is located hundreds of kilometres to the west of the position where the plane was criminally shot down as a revenge tactic by the IAF for losing its planes and pilots in the Kargil conflict, and as such by the time the PAF realized the treachery the IAF pilots had already ran away.

even if Karach is the only 60Km away from Indian last city and more close to barder and dont tell me that PAF don;t have any air base near Karachi and My dear Shamyel .. during peace time also , their was always a two pair of planes was on 24 hrs operation rediness and in all airbases world wide. which falls close to borders and which has hostile enemy or not so friendly country .....this is standard procedure paractice by the airforce world wide.... and Turkey , cyprus airforce .... take chines , tiwan , japanies and N.Korea and S.korea etc ..don't you think ....?

 

[Red aRRow]

The distance between Karachi and Hyderabad is like 300 kilometres (roughly). So you can imagine from this picture what is the distance between Karachi and the Indian border.

and mukul stop trying to hijack the thread please. We all want meaningful dialogues and discussions with a level head not hatefilled flame wars.
Thank You.

 

[webmaster]

Mukul, stop whinning and crying over nonissues! Whats so brave and great about taking down an UNARMED maritime Plane? Give it a rest will you! :roll

 

[Roger Smith]

Pakistan Airforce must be considered in the top ten airforces of the world on the basis of its past performance and training procedures.
Way back in 1999, i was posted in the FT-5 detatchment of the training wing as a student. As the Kargil war broke out, our detatchment started to train on war footing. We had DACT with our opponents being the F-6, F-7, Mirage 3 and even F-16s. We were trained for a low level air-to-air combat and believe me that while flying in a Mig-17U [FT-5] we outfought the F-6s and Mirages, and even won twice against the F-7MPs. This shows our low level of training since FT-5 was the first jet fighter we ever flew. You can think about our senior pilots who had quite a lot of flying hours on the most modern fighters. Espacially the pilots of the F-16, F-7 and Mirage units had the experience since they had flown against the Mig-29s, F-15s, F-16s, Mirage 2000s and Mig-23s of the friendly countries in DACT.
When PAF was tested in 1965, its proved its mettle by stopping and inflicting serious damage to the more modern, advanced and large IAF, while it remained unscathed loosing only 16 aircraft in all.
Again in 1971 PAF saved Pakistan from humiliation when again it flew for the defence for its country. At this time the total amount of PAF aircraft numbered less than the total no. of front line IAF aircraft but still it performed well. It stopped the indian advance in East Pakistan till the last moment when it was in a no win situation, since the IAF outnumbered PAF both in quality and quantity. Even in the western sector PAF flew important strikes which kept the indians at bay, otherwise the western sector would also have faced a certain defeat. Though Pakistan lost this war, PAF had lost 34 aircraft but it also downed 102 IAF aircraft. The result of the PAF failure was not that they were inferior but it was due to internal situations i.e. the bengali factor and the main commander, Gen. Yahya Khan was incapable of fighting this war. The PAF had fought on its own during this war with only one objective; conserve, survive and defend. This it did properly.
Then during the Afghan war, PAF again saw action against the Russians and shot down half a dozen of Russian/ Afghan intruders without loosing any aircraft to the enemy.
PAF pilots have flown as instructors in the Arab countries and have performed extremely well against the Israel airforce. PAF pilots while flying Hunters and Mig-21s have downed a few Mirages and Super Mysteres without loosing a single PAF pilot or aircraft flown by PAF pilots.
Though PAF is not that much advanced as its enemies, it knows how to deal with them in their language and as far as it is training is concerned, its been rated as the best. According to my opinion PAF should be rated among the top ten airforces in the world.

You have summarized well on PAF's past glory shooting down Russian, Israeli and Indian planes and Pakistan being the protector of the Muslim world.

It is time now PAF should induct new high tech fighter aircrafts to face reality of the present day and the new century.

Thank you.

 

[webmaster]

It is time now PAF should induct new high tech fighter aircrafts to face reality of the present day and the new century.

PAF is likely to go for Eurofighter as we will see in the coming years. If current operation against Al-Qaeda/OBL is successful, we can see more channels that will open up for Pakistan to acquire some latest jets either from EU or possibily from USA. Due to past experiences, its unlikely and certainly not IMHO that Pakistan will go for US jets but its certain that its considering Eurofighter vigorously as far as I know.

 

[Roger Smith]

It is time now PAF should induct new high tech fighter aircrafts to face reality of the present day and the new century.

PAF is likely to go for Eurofighter as we will see in the coming years. If current operation against Al-Qaeda/OBL is successful, we can see more channels that will open up for Pakistan to acquire some latest jets either from EU or possibily from USA. Due to past experiences, its unlikely and certainly not IMHO that Pakistan will go for US jets but its certain that its considering Eurofighter vigorously as far as I know.

I agree with you, if the OBL and Mullah Omar episode are successfully executed. Pakistan will be showered and rewarded with alot of goodies and financially.

BTW, there is an Asian Aero Show being held in Singapore now and the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft is on display.

 

[Sarmad]

Pakistan Airforce must be considered in the top ten airforces of the world on the basis of its past performance and training procedures.
Way back in 1999, i was posted in the FT-5 detatchment of the training wing as a student. As the Kargil war broke out, our detatchment started to train on war footing. We had DACT with our opponents being the F-6, F-7, Mirage 3 and even F-16s. We were trained for a low level air-to-air combat and believe me that while flying in a Mig-17U [FT-5] we outfought the F-6s and Mirages, and even won twice against the F-7MPs. This shows our low level of training since FT-5 was the first jet fighter we ever flew. You can think about our senior pilots who had quite a lot of flying hours on the most modern fighters. Espacially the pilots of the F-16, F-7 and Mirage units had the experience since they had flown against the Mig-29s, F-15s, F-16s, Mirage 2000s and Mig-23s of the friendly countries in DACT.
When PAF was tested in 1965, its proved its mettle by stopping and inflicting serious damage to the more modern, advanced and large IAF, while it remained unscathed loosing only 16 aircraft in all.
Again in 1971 PAF saved Pakistan from humiliation when again it flew for the defence for its country. At this time the total amount of PAF aircraft numbered less than the total no. of front line IAF aircraft but still it performed well. It stopped the indian advance in East Pakistan till the last moment when it was in a no win situation, since the IAF outnumbered PAF both in quality and quantity. Even in the western sector PAF flew important strikes which kept the indians at bay, otherwise the western sector would also have faced a certain defeat. Though Pakistan lost this war, PAF had lost 34 aircraft but it also downed 102 IAF aircraft. The result of the PAF failure was not that they were inferior but it was due to internal situations i.e. the bengali factor and the main commander, Gen. Yahya Khan was incapable of fighting this war. The PAF had fought on its own during this war with only one objective; conserve, survive and defend. This it did properly.
Then during the Afghan war, PAF again saw action against the Russians and shot down half a dozen of Russian/ Afghan intruders without loosing any aircraft to the enemy.
PAF pilots have flown as instructors in the Arab countries and have performed extremely well against the Israel airforce. PAF pilots while flying Hunters and Mig-21s have downed a few Mirages and Super Mysteres without loosing a single PAF pilot or aircraft flown by PAF pilots.
Though PAF is not that much advanced as its enemies, it knows how to deal with them in their language and as far as it is training is concerned, its been rated as the best. According to my opinion PAF should be rated among the top ten airforces in the world.

You have summarized well on PAF's past glory shooting down Russian, Israeli and Indian planes and Pakistan being the protector of the Muslim world.

It is time now PAF should induct new high tech fighter aircrafts to face reality of the present day and the new century.

Thank you.

Well Mr. Roger Smith,

The points i have mentioned above can tell you about the operational readiness, training and past performances of the PAF. The PAF planners are well aware of the fact that they need to upgrade the PAF with new weapon systems and they are striving hard for it. I have mentioned about the aircraft which the PAF had planned for in another thread and you have also corrected me at a few places.
There is one news which is very much in the PAF news nowadays. My colleague, an aeronautical engineer at PAC KAMRA, F-6 REBUILT FACTORY, has told me that PAF is examining the F-7MP/PGs to fit in BVR missles [name not known], and specialist ground attack weapons like ASMs and laser guided weapons. Though an inside news, if true, would turn the F-7s into a fine fighting machine which could cope up with the requirements of modern air war and would plug in the gaps till some new fighter enters PAF service.

 

[Roger Smith]

Pakistan Airforce must be considered in the top ten airforces of the world on the basis of its past performance and training procedures.
Way back in 1999, i was posted in the FT-5 detatchment of the training wing as a student. As the Kargil war broke out, our detatchment started to train on war footing. We had DACT with our opponents being the F-6, F-7, Mirage 3 and even F-16s. We were trained for a low level air-to-air combat and believe me that while flying in a Mig-17U [FT-5] we outfought the F-6s and Mirages, and even won twice against the F-7MPs. This shows our low level of training since FT-5 was the first jet fighter we ever flew. You can think about our senior pilots who had quite a lot of flying hours on the most modern fighters. Espacially the pilots of the F-16, F-7 and Mirage units had the experience since they had flown against the Mig-29s, F-15s, F-16s, Mirage 2000s and Mig-23s of the friendly countries in DACT.
When PAF was tested in 1965, its proved its mettle by stopping and inflicting serious damage to the more modern, advanced and large IAF, while it remained unscathed loosing only 16 aircraft in all.
Again in 1971 PAF saved Pakistan from humiliation when again it flew for the defence for its country. At this time the total amount of PAF aircraft numbered less than the total no. of front line IAF aircraft but still it performed well. It stopped the indian advance in East Pakistan till the last moment when it was in a no win situation, since the IAF outnumbered PAF both in quality and quantity. Even in the western sector PAF flew important strikes which kept the indians at bay, otherwise the western sector would also have faced a certain defeat. Though Pakistan lost this war, PAF had lost 34 aircraft but it also downed 102 IAF aircraft. The result of the PAF failure was not that they were inferior but it was due to internal situations i.e. the bengali factor and the main commander, Gen. Yahya Khan was incapable of fighting this war. The PAF had fought on its own during this war with only one objective; conserve, survive and defend. This it did properly.
Then during the Afghan war, PAF again saw action against the Russians and shot down half a dozen of Russian/ Afghan intruders without loosing any aircraft to the enemy.
PAF pilots have flown as instructors in the Arab countries and have performed extremely well against the Israel airforce. PAF pilots while flying Hunters and Mig-21s have downed a few Mirages and Super Mysteres without loosing a single PAF pilot or aircraft flown by PAF pilots.
Though PAF is not that much advanced as its enemies, it knows how to deal with them in their language and as far as it is training is concerned, its been rated as the best. According to my opinion PAF should be rated among the top ten airforces in the world.

You have summarized well on PAF's past glory shooting down Russian, Israeli and Indian planes and Pakistan being the protector of the Muslim world.

It is time now PAF should induct new high tech fighter aircrafts to face reality of the present day and the new century.

Thank you.

Well Mr. Roger Smith,

The points i have mentioned above can tell you about the operational readiness, training and past performances of the PAF. The PAF planners are well aware of the fact that they need to upgrade the PAF with new weapon systems and they are striving hard for it. I have mentioned about the aircraft which the PAF had planned for in another thread and you have also corrected me at a few places.
There is one news which is very much in the PAF news nowadays. My colleague, an aeronautical engineer at PAC KAMRA, F-6 REBUILT FACTORY, has told me that PAF is examining the F-7MP/PGs to fit in BVR missles [name not known], and specialist ground attack weapons like ASMs and laser guided weapons. Though an inside news, if true, would turn the F-7s into a fine fighting machine which could cope up with the requirements of modern air war and would plug in the gaps till some new fighter enters PAF service.

Thanks for the info.

 

[viveksac]

I must admit there real was something fishy happening at that time.
You cannot say that the aircraft was on routine training flight very close to west Indian borders at the time of Kargil operations.
Even if you say the aircraft was off its path, I dont think that can happen to a PC3 Orion Maritime recon. aircraft.

If go along with the Indian story for instance, it would be but natural for the crew of aircraft to turn and save the aircraft from Indian Hands.
Never the less the PAF lost something very valuable to them.

My comments on PAF:
The PAF would have got a lot of exposure....they have the american F-16 which many countries have tried to emulate.


Coming back to the main topic at hand. The PAf's primary weapon are the F-16s that it has. I surely think that the Su-30 MKI will beat it in its current configuration(Pak's F-16). Also, if India acquires Mirage 2k-5 then the challenge will become harder. The the present Mirage - 2000 with IAF do pose a serious threat to it, but I think if you view quality of piloting, both aircrafts will have a tough fight getting around each other. I dont know whether the F-16 with Pak have BVR, but the IAF's Mirage's do. This also gives them another greater reach. You can forget about the Mig -21/23/27/25. They would be easy to get around. you will also have to worry about the Mig- 29 especially after it is fitted with Ireali electronic systems.





PS: How you unlock a thread here....I have to put up my justification for Anti-missile & aircraft system thing that I created.

 

[mysterious]

I dont remember exactly which Maritime Aircraft it was but it was an un-armed aircraft on a training flight and that was not at the time Kargil was going on but quite some time after that! You claim Pakistan lost 2 wars but then you say the second one was more an Indian Operation so there u go; u nullify ur own point! Kargil was a tactical operation by Pak. Army I would call it a skirmish that got out of hand.
Lastly, PAF F-16s do have the BVR capability or are to be fitted with it soon (just a little blurry on this matter if anyone could provide some input), but I doubt that a Mirage 2000-5 can even take on a F-16 A/B. Very Doubtful! :cop

 

[Red aRRow]

:cop :cop No more discussions about Kargil or any non-related topic. PAF was not involved during Kargil operations so that subject is totally out of line with this thread. I don't want to hear one word about it now. :cop :cop

 

[mysterious]

lol

 

[viveksac]

I dont remember exactly which Maritime Aircraft it was but it was an un-armed aircraft on a training flight and that was not at the time Kargil was going on but quite some time after that! You claim Pakistan lost 2 wars but then you say the second one was more an Indian Operation so there u go; u nullify ur own point! Kargil was a tactical operation by Pak. Army I would call it a skirmish that got out of hand.
Lastly, PAF F-16s do have the BVR capability or are to be fitted with it soon (just a little blurry on this matter if anyone could provide some input), but I doubt that a Mirage 2000-5 can even take on a F-16 A/B. Very Doubtful! :cop

It was the Atlantique...but no there were poeple in the aircraft and they were more than 2 and I dont think it could be a training flight and yes it was at the time of Kargil operations.
Secondly,
How do you say that I nullify my point? A 1971 war that goes for 2 weeks!!!!

Lastly, fighter aircraft eval. is mostly made on 3 points:
1. Structural features that factor agility.
2. Electronic and digital systems.
3. Ability to use in different mission roles.

Man....the battle will really great. Just have a look at the aircraft pictures.