What rank does the PAF stand at now?
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- #22
mate, i totally disagree. china is more like in the top three below the USAF. thats why the US are dam scared of china. they ain't even got the guts to start on china so instead there kitting up india with technology to cause problems for the pakistani's and the chinese. the only reason india are getting that phalcon radar is to keep a close eye on pak-sino friendship.
o and by the way here is a picture of the pakistani jet that shot down 6 indian jets in one go using bullets.
http://www.pakaviation.com/PVA/Library/AirPhotos/Other/Monumental/Photo_ABA_F6_1610.html
o and by the way here is a picture of the pakistani jet that shot down 6 indian jets in one go using bullets.
http://www.pakaviation.com/PVA/Library/AirPhotos/Other/Monumental/Photo_ABA_F6_1610.html
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- #24
yes it's true. When i was in pakistan the pilot himself told me. he was surrounded by indian migs which ordered him to land in india. he said that some how he done a few turns and got behind the indians and shoot down 6 at a time. 1 mig got away. the pilot told me that he done what he did which the help of God.
The only multiple ace I know of we have already discussed, and that was in an F-86.
I'll let Umair respond to this one.
but, the reason why I am reserving my judgement is that:
- the jet can be identified to its squadron and its base by its markings, then its a matter of working out where it was when the six other aircraft were shot down
- it has no kill markings on it - every jet that qualifies as the platform used by an ACE has kill markings on it.
as I said, Umair is better placed to verify this than myself.
Once it's proven I am quite happy to accept it as fact - its just that it (the F6) doesn't fit into any of the kill history I have for the PAF for multiples.
I may be horribly wrong though.
I'll let Umair respond to this one.
but, the reason why I am reserving my judgement is that:
- the jet can be identified to its squadron and its base by its markings, then its a matter of working out where it was when the six other aircraft were shot down
- it has no kill markings on it - every jet that qualifies as the platform used by an ACE has kill markings on it.
as I said, Umair is better placed to verify this than myself.
Once it's proven I am quite happy to accept it as fact - its just that it (the F6) doesn't fit into any of the kill history I have for the PAF for multiples.
I may be horribly wrong though.
A
Aussie Digger
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The USAF is undisputedly THE most powerful airforce on Earth. The US Navy/Marine Corps IMHO possesses the 2nd most powerful air combat capability, daylight comes third and then the regional air forces start to come into effect. China whilst possessing a massive air force has deficiencies in air to air refuelling, AWACS/JSTARS type capability, SEAD and EW capability etc etc, the list goes on and on. Most of it's aircraft are extremely old and comparitively low tech. In addition it is reported that the sheer size of their forces restrict their training and logistical capacity with follow-on effects on it's overall capability. I'm not saying it doesn't possess massive capability, but it's ability to generate warfighting capability is hamstrung by it's size. China has acknowledged this and is massively down sizing it's forces whilst making important strides in improving the quality of it's forces. The days of massive swarming attacks are over... My list would be:
1. USAF. (Second to none platforms, sensors, networked capability, training and logistical capacity).
2. US Navy/Marine Corps. (As above).
3. Russia (because of it's size and relatively capable platforms, not because of it's training, logistics or C4I capacity).
4. China (Same as Russia).
5. Israel. (Second to none experience and quality of training, platforms, sensors, C4I capability.)
6. UK. (Fantastic platforms, training, sensors, C4I and logistical capacity. Outstanding operational experience in all forms of warfare).
7. France. (Again fantastic platforms, training, sensors, C4I and logistical capacity. Outstanding operational experience in all forms of warfare).
8. India. (Excellent platforms, sheer size and rapidly improving sensors C4I.)
9. Australia. (Excellent platforms, excellent training, good C4I, good networked capability, good recent operational experience, outstanding performance against other air forces in exercises, rapidly improving capabilties with new AWACS, air-air refuellers, Lead in Fighter Aircraft, and high quality upgraded fighter aircraft with new precision attack weapons and standoff attack missiles).
10. Sweden. (Very high quality platforms, good sensors, <AWACS etc>, training, logistics, highly advanced C4I capability. Lack of operational experience is only negative).
That is my opinion anyway. No doubt a lot of people will disagree with me, but remember one thing. Numbers of aircraft aren't the be all and end all of Air warfare. Look at the Falklands. The UK only had approx 20 air defence aircraft available to them and they were able to defeat the numerical and theoretically qualitatively superior Argentine Air Force. This has been recognised as being almost soley due to the superior training of British pilots. Modern warfighting is multifaceted and real capability is generated by a large combination of factors. Paper statistics do not convey the full picture. Cheers.
1. USAF. (Second to none platforms, sensors, networked capability, training and logistical capacity).
2. US Navy/Marine Corps. (As above).
3. Russia (because of it's size and relatively capable platforms, not because of it's training, logistics or C4I capacity).
4. China (Same as Russia).
5. Israel. (Second to none experience and quality of training, platforms, sensors, C4I capability.)
6. UK. (Fantastic platforms, training, sensors, C4I and logistical capacity. Outstanding operational experience in all forms of warfare).
7. France. (Again fantastic platforms, training, sensors, C4I and logistical capacity. Outstanding operational experience in all forms of warfare).
8. India. (Excellent platforms, sheer size and rapidly improving sensors C4I.)
9. Australia. (Excellent platforms, excellent training, good C4I, good networked capability, good recent operational experience, outstanding performance against other air forces in exercises, rapidly improving capabilties with new AWACS, air-air refuellers, Lead in Fighter Aircraft, and high quality upgraded fighter aircraft with new precision attack weapons and standoff attack missiles).
10. Sweden. (Very high quality platforms, good sensors, <AWACS etc>, training, logistics, highly advanced C4I capability. Lack of operational experience is only negative).
That is my opinion anyway. No doubt a lot of people will disagree with me, but remember one thing. Numbers of aircraft aren't the be all and end all of Air warfare. Look at the Falklands. The UK only had approx 20 air defence aircraft available to them and they were able to defeat the numerical and theoretically qualitatively superior Argentine Air Force. This has been recognised as being almost soley due to the superior training of British pilots. Modern warfighting is multifaceted and real capability is generated by a large combination of factors. Paper statistics do not convey the full picture. Cheers.
AD's list is really reflective of todays paradigm regarding air war.I agree with his placing the Kangaroos in the list, nothing funny bout it.
I just wish that PAF gets it's netcentric and EW mix right.C4i of PAF is regarded as the best in Asia(Heard of PADS77? now being Upgraded to PADS2K4). We just need new spankin jets to complement our spankin pilot training(#2 in world) and we'll be right up in the top 5 overall in the next 5-7 years.
P.S PAF & others click on the following link to remove u'r confusion regarding the F-86F and The Farmer:
http://www.pafcombat.com/great-ab/speed-shooting-classic.htm
The webmaster of this site is the present base commander PAFB Masroor Karachi.
The main site for all PAF combat info www.pafcombat.com
I just wish that PAF gets it's netcentric and EW mix right.C4i of PAF is regarded as the best in Asia(Heard of PADS77? now being Upgraded to PADS2K4). We just need new spankin jets to complement our spankin pilot training(#2 in world) and we'll be right up in the top 5 overall in the next 5-7 years.
P.S PAF & others click on the following link to remove u'r confusion regarding the F-86F and The Farmer:
http://www.pafcombat.com/great-ab/speed-shooting-classic.htm
The webmaster of this site is the present base commander PAFB Masroor Karachi.
The main site for all PAF combat info www.pafcombat.com
MOD EDIT This list takes into account various factors including combat expreince.I suggest u brush up on u'r military history. Read about Australias contribution inKorea and Veitnam GW1 & GW2
P.S visit the following link to educate u'rself:
http://defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php
UMAIR
P.S visit the following link to educate u'rself:
http://defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php
UMAIR
Roger Smith
New Member
This is my input on top ten ranking Air Forces of the world.
1.USA(no question about it)
2.Israel(Lacking numbers but training and technology favour them)
3.Russia(Numbers although quality decreasing in recent times)
4.France(Quality and number of good air crafts)
5.China(Massive numbers, quality not good although improving rapidly)
6.UK(Quite a few aircrafts though the reason for high ranking is simply because they have AWACS.)
7.India(Decent number of fighters and improving quantity and quality radidly like China.
8.Japan, Taiwan & South Korea (in the same order)
9.Ukraine, Poland, Egypt & Pakistan
10.Canada, Australia & Brazil.
1.USA(no question about it)
2.Israel(Lacking numbers but training and technology favour them)
3.Russia(Numbers although quality decreasing in recent times)
4.France(Quality and number of good air crafts)
5.China(Massive numbers, quality not good although improving rapidly)
6.UK(Quite a few aircrafts though the reason for high ranking is simply because they have AWACS.)
7.India(Decent number of fighters and improving quantity and quality radidly like China.
8.Japan, Taiwan & South Korea (in the same order)
9.Ukraine, Poland, Egypt & Pakistan
10.Canada, Australia & Brazil.
No disrespect intended Roger, but even you must have read the reports from Canada about the fact that its military is in severe decline. If not redressed they will not be able to field a defensive force within 10 years.Roger Smith said:
The airforce is on maint mode only. There are numerous reports from Canada confirming that.
Canada's air force maybe going on an crippled anorexic (no offence intended to anyone but my metaphoric illustrations are somewhat limited at the moment...Thanks for the link, Webs) but it isn't exactly a Third World scrapheap either.WebMaster said:
Perhaps gf went autokill upon seeing Canada, Australia and Brazil grouped altogether at position ten, when quite clearly all three are in different leagues to each other....
I try to avoid commenting about where australia sits in things like this, but at a tactical level I would place germany above australia and as a mini group:Winter said:
germany, mass, training, platforms and capability
italy, mass, training, platforms
brazil, already has awacs capability (although not long range), substantial platform mix and has a capability
australia, awacs not ready until 2006, but capability is there, training is there etc..
I dont think the PAF can qualify to enter into the top ten list. Undoubtedly the PAF probably has one of the best training regimes out there but they simply lack the assests to compliment pilots training:
1. No high tech fighter yet inducted. Rumours of the PAF going for the J10, M2K or Rafale or just that - rumours. A few squadrons of MLU F16s (and it'll be a cold day in hell if congress ever approves the sale) or the JF17 is just not going to cut it if you want to compare the PAFs capability with the big boys.
2. Minimal force multipliers e.g. refuel tankers, AEW&C, EW, recce and space based intel gathering - although this is a problem that effects the tri services etc.
3. Lacking SOW but the H2 and H4 is probably going to change that scenario
4. Ground based air defence network is lacking a high altitude SAM.
Im sure there a more issues but being a layman aviation enthusiast these are problems I can currently think of.
Umair I would love to hear your opinion on the future planning strategy of the PAF and what sort of defence/offence capability it will provide the service in the long term.
1. No high tech fighter yet inducted. Rumours of the PAF going for the J10, M2K or Rafale or just that - rumours. A few squadrons of MLU F16s (and it'll be a cold day in hell if congress ever approves the sale) or the JF17 is just not going to cut it if you want to compare the PAFs capability with the big boys.
2. Minimal force multipliers e.g. refuel tankers, AEW&C, EW, recce and space based intel gathering - although this is a problem that effects the tri services etc.
3. Lacking SOW but the H2 and H4 is probably going to change that scenario
4. Ground based air defence network is lacking a high altitude SAM.
Im sure there a more issues but being a layman aviation enthusiast these are problems I can currently think of.
Umair I would love to hear your opinion on the future planning strategy of the PAF and what sort of defence/offence capability it will provide the service in the long term.
Roger Smith
New Member
I agree with you. Canadian government has not been up-dating the military equipements/hardwares regularly as we have a friendly nation to our south the USA.gf0012 said:
Our forces are mainly deployed on UN peace missions and stll maintain a high standard.
Thanks.
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