USAF Plans to sell F22's to "trusted allies" very soon

[410Cougar]

The F22 is rightly regarded as being the best plane in the world and the Typhoon the second best. Assuming we don't get into a shooting war with the USA we will still have better planes that anyone we are likely to go up against.

Now that Saudi Arabia has them, do you feel that you'll never go up against one of them?

I think we must look at this from an extremely logical point of view. The USA needs the Raptor. Why? Because it could come under potential attack from any country in the world. We don't need to discuss the whos and whys, lets just leave them out of this.

The only country where an F-22 presence would be essential to the well being of the US would be Japan. Given that Japan operates -15's, which as far as we know are the dominant fighter in the region, I highly doubt that they'll be investing the money in the Raptor. It just wouldn't make sense to at this point. Maybe further down the road, but not anytime soon.

The UK. Man I love you guys alot. You pride yourself on using the planes that you build at home, and you should receive a big pat on the back for doing that. The Tornado, Typhoon, Harrier, Vulcan...you guys made and still make some great airplanes. Your involvement in the JSF program shows that you're still interested in keeping yourselves ahead of many other countries in the game. Do you need the Raptor? Nope. Your pilots are exceptional, and with a fleet of Typhoons and a fleet of JSF's you'll have more than enough firepower to shoot anything that dares attack your islands.

The Raptor is American - built in the US, systems designed/created in the US and it shall be flown only by the US at the expense of the US taxpayers. Should they complain? No. Air Superiority belongs to the country who makes the best plane for the job and who has the best combat proven pilots in the world. All this political posturing is stupid. Everyone knows that you need the plane eventually, so why argue about cost when it'll never really go down?Enjoy your Raptor. I know I would if I were in your shoes.

Attila

 

[rossfrb_1]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18726033%255E31477,00.html

"Buy Raptor instead of JSF, says Labor
Patrick Walters, National security editor
April 06, 2006

LABOR wants the Government to review its plan to buy up to 100 joint strike fighters, arguing instead for the purchase of F/A-22 Raptor stealth fighters.

Labor's defence spokesman, Robert McClelland, says in a speech to be delivered at ANU's Strategic and Defence Studies Centre today that buying a smaller number of the tried and proven F/A-22s would address a possible gap in combat air power after the retirement of the F-111 bombers from 2010.

He says the Government has failed to provide sufficient detailed justification for the $12billion JSF purchase in preference to the more expensive F/A-22, including far more precise costings.

"In so far as cost has been a major issue in the decision to purchase the JSF over the

F/A-22, it appears that the cost differential between the two aircraft is significantly less than anticipated," he says..

Defence has estimated the fly-away cost of the JSF at about $US45million ($63million) while the F/A-22 fighters now in production cost about $US153million each.

But Mr McClelland quotes a recent US government audit report on the JSF project that says initial-production-run aircraft prices could climb as high as $US137million.

"Clearly it is not possible to precisely predict the cost of the JSF, nor does it seem that adequate investigation has occurred as to the cost of the now operational F/A-22," he says.

Mr McClelland claims there is a significant risk that the JSF project will not deliver an aircraft with all desired capabilities and within the anticipated price.

There was little prospect the first JSFs would be delivered in 2012, as envisaged by Defence.

"It is a complete mystery how Australian ADF representatives can continue to assert that we will have the JSF by 2012. Our future air capability modelling should be based on a much stronger foundation than naive optimism.

"The Government's failure to recognise likely delays in the JSF program may unacceptably compromise our regional air superiority," he argues.

If the Howard Government goes ahead with a decision in 2008-09 to buy the JSF it will be by far Australia's biggest ever defence acquisition.

Current planning provides for upgraded F/A-18 fighters to be the RAAF's frontline fighter force until the arrival of the JSF from 2012-13.

Senior Defence sources say what while the unit cost of the JSF may climb above $45million, particularly if the US buys a smaller number of fighters, the price gap with the F/A-22 is still far too big.

They add that the US has never exported the F/A-22 and would be unlikely to do so even to a close ally such as Australia.

Mr McClelland says Australia, unlike Singapore, has no second place tenderer on hold should it be established that the JSF project is unable to meet the RAAF's requirements. "

It'll be interesting to see if this has any legs.
I wonder how old the quote from 'Senior Defence' is, given recent rumours that Japan is interested in getting some F-22s?
Also I believe that it may have been GF who stated that the US has made it clear to Oz Defence that the F-22 is on the table should they want it.
So I wonder who this senior official is, and what their agenda is? In addition that USD45 million, is a somewhat contentious number.


rb

 

[Supe]

Labor grasping for policy worth a damn on Defence?

Assuming that Raptor's are even on the table and going from there:

How many Raptors is Labor talking about? At any rate an interesting Labor proposition could be a mix of Raptors and UCAVs. I don't know how that would fly on this forum so on that note...

Any thoughts on a Raptor/UCAV mix?

 

[old faithful]

having served in the aust army during the Hawke and Keating years, i find it difficult to grasp that labour would purchase F22,s. If they did,would our pilots get a chance to fly `em both?!:

 

[Jack B.]

I think that Japan will buy some F-22's. They are a realiable US ally that can afford the F-22.

 

[hot222]

I think that even this one be real, the cost of that a/c is that high that i don't think that someone outside US can afford it. Think that Eurofight with 80$ per piece is expensive. What do you think about a price 200$?

 

[Occum]

Has Australia been out-Flanked?

I think that even this one be real, the cost of that a/c is that high that i don't think that someone outside US can afford it. Think that Eurofight with 80$ per piece is expensive. What do you think about a price 200$?

Latest US Congressional Budget Reports just released put the F-22 procurement cost in the 2011-2012 time window at US$126 million per system unit and the stage four/five low rate initial production JSFs in the same time window (presently) at a fair bit more than this, around US$135+ million per system unit.

Then, why is it that Australia is buying JSFs, again?

rossfrb_1 : Also I believe that it may have been GF who stated that the US has made it clear to Oz Defence that the F-22 is on the table should they want it.

According to many of the documents referenced on this and other forums that I have now read, a couple of people have been saying this for years and increasingly so!

A number of people have said that Angus Houston was also told this back in 2001 by the outgoing CAF as well as the Americans.

Gotta say it makes a lot of sense, particularly for the Americans - less to worry about in the region having such a capability in the hands of the good guys.

If true, why would Angus Houston and others, like new CAF, be saying it's not?

All rather confusing and not making much sense.

Can any of the gurus out there or anyone shed some light on all this?

​

 

[Whiskyjack]

Latest US Congressional Budget Reports just released put the F-22 procurement cost in the 2011-2012 time window at US$126 million per system unit and the stage four/five low rate initial production JSFs in the same time window (presently) at a fair bit more than this, around US$135+ million per system unit.

Then, why is it that Australia is buying JSFs, again?

Yeah but the JSF cost will be up to US$135 mil per copy, INCLUDING development costs. This is the upper end and could be less. The F-22 at US$126 mil per copy does NOT include development cost, when included it is looking close to US$300 mil per copy.

My understanding is that the US always includes development cost. Something the Europens do not have to do.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Latest US Congressional Budget Reports just released put the F-22 procurement cost in the 2011-2012 time window at US$126 million per system unit and the stage four/five low rate initial production JSFs in the same time window (presently) at a fair bit more than this, around US$135+ million per system unit.

Then, why is it that Australia is buying JSFs, again?



According to many of the documents referenced on this and other forums that I have now read, a couple of people have been saying this for years and increasingly so!

A number of people have said that Angus Houston was also told this back in 2001 by the outgoing CAF as well as the Americans.

Gotta say it makes a lot of sense, particularly for the Americans - less to worry about in the region having such a capability in the hands of the good guys.

If true, why would Angus Houston and others, like new CAF, be saying it's not?

All rather confusing and not making much sense.

Can any of the gurus out there or anyone shed some light on all this?

F-22's have no maritime strike, recce or SEAD capability and very little A2G and CAS capability. It is un-questionably the best A2A fighter in the foreseeable future, and does possess a limited ability to employ 2x JDAM's, however RAAF requires far more than that.

F-22 has no Tactical datalinks, possessing only the ability to receive info from datalinks, not transfer. All these capabilities, which were to be included in follow-on blocks, have now been cancelled, due to the escalating costs of the entire program. F-22 already requires a processor upgrade, further adding to the cost of the aircraft.

RAAF produced documents to the Joint Standing Committee on defence, foreign affairs and trade enquiry 2 weeks ago, stating that the cost of the F-35A version is still at US$45 million a piece, based on existing purchase plans. this price does NOT take into account development/support costs. IF planned orders are reduced, the price will go up.

RAAF also produced documents, showing the F-22 could not be purchased for less than US$200 million a piece, (not including development/support costs) even if it were available to be sold to Australia. The current chief of airforce, said basically this in evidence to the enquiry 2 weeks ago, "that it is not at all certain that the US would sell the F-22 to Australia even if we wanted it".

In addition to the JSF's supposed lack of range compared to F-22, well it's lighter, carries more fuel and only has 1 engine, which is actually a developed (ie: improved) version of the engine fitted to the F-22. Do the math...

At best, with our available budget we could afford no more than 50 F-22's and that's IT. We could not afford any other combat aircraft to "fill in the gaps".

Evidence from DMO 2 weeks ago to the enquiry, showed that aircraft unit cost, makes up only about 70% of the purchase price. With a AU$16 Billion budget, we could afford to spend roughly AU$11billion (my maths here) on the actual aircraft (with the remainder to be spent on support, training, weapons etc).

This equates at these prices to roughly 40 F-22's or well over 100 JSF's.

Given the F-22's lack of multi-role capability, it would significantly decrease Australia's air combat capability, both in it's lack of capability, in the majority of roles we would need to employ it and the lack of numbers we could afford to actually deploy. 40 would give us barely 2 squadrons worth....

Just my 2 cents, but I'd like the RAAF to IMPROVE it's current capability by spending $16 billion, not go backwards...

 

[faheem]

Inside the Air Force

February 17, 2006

HEADLINE: PLAN TO EXPORT F-22A TO ALLIES GAINING MOMENTUM WITHIN AIR FORCE

Momentum is building within the Air Force to sell the service's prized F-22A Raptor -- which is loaded with super-secret systems -- to trusted U.S. allies, with Japan viewed as the most likely buyer, service and industry officials tell Inside the Air Force.

Hey I was thinking that as the the America is making India stronger to use it against the China which indeed is a growing economic and Nuclear power.
So can Usa give India raptors to make his new ally more strong.

 

[Occum]

Error Message

Yeah but the JSF cost will be up to US$135 mil per copy, INCLUDING development costs. This is the upper end and could be less. The F-22 at US$126 mil per copy does NOT include development cost, when included it is looking close to US$300 mil per copy.

My understanding is that the US always includes development cost. Something the Europens do not have to do.

Not so, I hate to say.

The figures in the recently released US Congressional Reports I was referring to are in terms of procurement budget figures, not development (RDT&E) budget figures. The figures quoted are the procurement costs per unit system or, rather, the unit procurement costs. According to what I have read, this figure is made up of unit flyaway cost plus per unit portion of the costs for all that is needed to place the aircraft on the flight line (including training, tech & ops docs, GSE, ATE, initial spares, etc.).

Also, under FMS - isn't there a US statute that precludes the US DoD charging foreigners development (RDT&E) costs - something to do with IP rights, ownership and such?

This raises an intriguing question. Is the JSF to be bought under FMS?

If not, this could be velly interesting, development costs wise, that is! This could go some way to explain Dr Gumley's comments in the Hansard of the JSC hearing the other day.

​

 

[Magoo]

This raises an intriguing question. Is the JSF to be bought under FMS?
If not, this could be velly interesting, development costs wise, that is! This could go some way to explain Dr Gumley's comments in the Hansard of the JSC hearing the other day.

As a partner nation in the development program, Australia's buy will neither be an FMS nor a direct sale. We'll effectively be buying the aircraft from ourselves as we are a part (albeit small) member of the consortium that developed it.

Also, as a partner nation, our $300m contribution to the SDD program and our subsequent contribution later this year means we have already paid our share of development costs and will therefore only pay for the aircraft, the various support options, GSE, and sims etc.

Magoo

 

[Occum]

How much for the next JSF phase?

Also, as a partner nation, our $300m contribution to the SDD program and our subsequent contribution later this year means we have already paid our share of development costs and will therefore only pay for the aircraft, the various support options, GSE, and sims etc.

Magoo

Okay, but the $300m only equates to about 0.3% of the SDD costs. Doesn't seem to be anywhere near enough to being 'our share of development costs'.

Does anyone know how much 'our subsequent contribution later this year' will be?

​

 

[Big-E]

I think its a bad idea. . . The Raptor is the best the U.S. can field, selling weapons to allies has always been keeping them at least one generation behind in technology. . . If we ever did go to war with Japan over trade or whatever we would have a hell of a time finding those raptors. . . I say give them the JSF like all our other trusted allies. . . it should be more than a match for Russian and Chinese fighters.

 

[Rich]

Hey I was thinking that as the the America is making India stronger to use it against the China which indeed is a growing economic and Nuclear power.
So can Usa give India raptors to make his new ally more strong.

We dont even give them F-16s let alone raptors. I also dont see how we are, "making India stronger to use it against China". I cant think of one major weapons system we have supplied India with. Please qualify your remark. Conversely giving Pakistan, or India, such highly advanced systems might tilt the balance between them and precipitate a war. Which is in no-ones interest.

 

[Magoo]

Okay, but the $300m only equates to about 0.3% of the SDD costs. Doesn't seem to be anywhere near enough to being 'our share of development costs'.

We're up for about the same amount again around the end of the year, plus when you add the contribution made by Australian companies to the project so far, our contribution will potentially amount to over A$1.5 billion.

It's difficult to equate development costs on an 'apples for apples' basis, as the STOVL and CV versions will require alot more development (and hence, will cost more) than the CTOL which we are likely to get.

Magoo

 

[long live usa]

didint the f/22a raptor first go into production in 1995(if i remember correctley) i think only 30 or so have been produced even if the most likely buyer japan were to go ahead with a deal i doubt they would recieve more than two or three a year although the f/22a raptor is the best air superiority fighter in the world i dont think having one or 2 in your inventory would boost the strength of an airforce greatly but over 5 year period this could increase japans airpower greatly

 

[410Cougar]

Info

A $9.55 billion contract for Engineering and Manufacturing Development (EMD) of the F-22 was awarded to the industry team of Boeing and Lockheed Martin in August 1991. Contract changes since then have elevated the contract value to approximately $11 billion. Under terms of the contract, the F-22 team will complete the design of the aircraft, produce production tooling for the program, and build and test nine flightworthy and two ground-test aircraft.

In February 1995, the Air Force customer approved the final design of the F-22 air vehicle and confirmed that the program was ready to proceed to fabrication and assembly. The Air Force plans to procure 339 F-22s, and production is scheduled to run through 2013.

Above info from The US Air Force

http://www.f22fighter.com/history.htm

As for saying that over a 5 year period the 15 (if that) aircraft that Japan would receive would increase Japans airpower greatly, I would disagree with that. Even the US didn't have IOC until they hit 20 aircraft - and so far they're just being used for homeland defence, not overseas operations.

I think that every country would do well to have a mix of both F-22's and JSF's. That being said, there is no country that can afford both of them in any type of number. Most countries that aided in the development of the JSF will probably acquire that airframe as its cost will be lower due to their involvment in the development program. This is not so for the F-22.

I think that something else needs to be looked at here as well. When is the next US and Australian election and how might that have a bearing on what type of export future the F-22 or JSF? Same goes here for Canada and quite possibly the UK.

Attila

 

[nuke_em]

We dont even give them F-16s let alone raptors. I also dont see how we are, "making India stronger to use it against China". I cant think of one major weapons system we have supplied India with. Please qualify your remark. Conversely giving Pakistan, or India, such highly advanced systems might tilt the balance between them and precipitate a war. Which is in no-ones interest.

you are correct when you say that India will be able to acquire raptors but dont forget the are gonna buy atleast 126 airplanes and f-16 and f-18 are one of the bidders. i would also liek to comment that giving india such weapons will not tilt the peaceful balance because unlike pakistan india respects other's terrritory. anyways theyre developing such weaopns.

 

[J.D.]

Double post