The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

"Russia can just leave" is about who’s responsible. Russia chose to invade, and it can end the invasion by withdrawing. That says nothing about whether it will. "Russia won’t leave" is a serious practical problem, but it answers a different question. It doesn’t make Russia any less responsible, or shift that responsibility onto Ukraine for resisting. That still leaves the practical question of what would make Moscow change course.

And why is Russia’s refusal treated as fixed, while everyone else are expected to adjust? One could just as easily say Ukraine will never cede territory and Russia will have to adjust to that. Either way, one side’s position is non-negotiable and the whole burden falls on the other. Neither position is helpful. Any settlement will mean likely compromises on both sides.

Except responsibility isn't reasonably in question. There are things the west could have done to prevent it, but Russia caused it. So there's not much to discuss. On the other hand the question of how this resolves is far more interesting and impactful. And the reason why Russia can afford to be inflexible more so than Ukraine is because all the long run trends are against Ukraine, especially the population issues. Theoretically the combined support of the collective west could propel Ukraine to victory but in practice this hasn't been happening and the longer this drags on the less likely this possibility becomes.
 
Except responsibility isn't reasonably in question. There are things the west could have done to prevent it, but Russia caused it. So there's not much to discuss. On the other hand the question of how this resolves is far more interesting and impactful.

I agree. My point was simply that these are separate questions and shouldn't be conflated. Responding to the true statement that Russia could return to status quo at any point it wants with “but it won't” is equally meaningless. Those questions describe different dimensions.
 
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And the reason why Russia can afford to be inflexible more so than Ukraine is because all the long run trends are against Ukraine, especially the population issues. Theoretically the combined support of the collective west could propel Ukraine to victory but in practice this hasn't been happening and the longer this drags on the less likely this possibility becomes.

I don’t see either side winning decisively on the battlefield any time soon, and all of this also matters in a potential settlement.

On whose terms depends on what each side is willing and able to endure. The stakes differ. Ukraine is fighting for its territory and its survival as an independent state. Russia can fail to achieve its war aims and still face nothing like that. So the cost each side is willing to pay differs too.

Each side wants the other to believe it is willing to keep this up longer. Russia may or may not be as inflexible as it looks. Either way, the posture helps it. If the West believes Russia will keep going no matter the cost, backing Ukraine feels like a waste. Pushing Kyiv to accept Russia’s terms starts to look sensible. That’s also why Russia runs information campaigns to erode Western support. Western leaders make the same move from the other side when they promise to back Ukraine "for as long as it takes". Messaging to Russia it won’t budge, this will cost RUssia, so it might as well negotiate.

In the end, it’s all about negotiating position. Western support doesn’t have to win Ukraine the war to matter. It matters to be in a better negotiation position. That’s why it’s nonsense when people say Russia won’t budge, so the West should not help Ukraine and leave it for dead.
 
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Only that the collapse of Ukraine will make "negotiating" irrelevant.
I cannot see the collapse of Russia, neither in 2028 nor in 2029.
even when it's clear Ukraine is losing land on a daily basis all over the battle field and Ukraine and it's backers beg for cease fires almost every week, the fairy tale world still paints a picture of a stalemate. then you hear things like "Russia can just end this war by leaving Ukraine", how about if NATO ends the war and leaves Ukraine?
 
Russia doesn’t need to face collapse for a negotiated settlement to become preferable to continuing the war. Neither does Ukraine.
Russia will not collapse. That is not an opinion, that is NATO, (the Dutch intelligence report and there was another one some time ago), Russia will get away with this war and will be ready for a war against NATO in 2030; swerve, is NATO arguing for Russia?
Ukraine needs $110bn for 2027, Ukraine does not know how much money will get in 2027; "for as long as necessary" is a promise, not a commitment. There is not even a mention of money for 2028 nor for 2029, but there is a possible Ukrainian collapse in 2027. Vivendi: "By 2027 or early 2028, I predict Russia's collapse within 2 years... Russia may collapse already in 2026." It is not happening, NATO dixit.
Ukraine's situation was better in 2023 than in 2026, it will be worse in 2027 and worse again in 2028; that is a logical progression. Ukraine may need $130bn in 2028 and $200bn in 2030, how much money has been promised?
The sinews of war are infinite money. It is not about the front line, but about the collapse of the country. I don't "predict" that Ukraine will have no negotiating position in 2028, but it is better for Ukraine to reach an agreement in 2026 than in 2027; and better still than in 2028. We have already seen that logical, and factual, progression.

Russian situation will be worse in 2027 and worse again in 2028 but, "a negotiated settlement to become preferable to continuing the war"? I would say it is preferable, even if costlier, to dictate terms than to negotiate terms.
Ukraine is actually facing collapse, I wouldn't use preferable, I would use necessary.
 
I don’t see either side winning decisively on the battlefield any time soon, and all of this also matters in a potential settlement.

On whose terms depends on what each side is willing and able to endure. The stakes differ. Ukraine is fighting for its territory and its survival as an independent state. Russia can fail to achieve its war aims and still face nothing like that. So the cost each side is willing to pay differs too.

Each side wants the other to believe it is willing to keep this up longer. Russia may or may not be as inflexible as it looks. Either way, the posture helps it. If the West believes Russia will keep going no matter the cost, backing Ukraine feels like a waste. Pushing Kyiv to accept Russia’s terms starts to look sensible. That’s also why Russia runs information campaigns to erode Western support. Western leaders make the same move from the other side when they promise to back Ukraine "for as long as it takes". Messaging to Russia it won’t budge, this will cost RUssia, so it might as well negotiate.

In the end, it’s all about negotiating position. Western support doesn’t have to win Ukraine the war to matter. It matters to be in a better negotiation position. That’s why it’s nonsense when people say Russia won’t budge, so the West should not help Ukraine and leave it for dead.

Except the cost of continuing to fight is also very different. The damage to Ukraine is far more dramatic compared to Russia. The destruction of the country, the refugees, the damage to the economy, they're all massively stacked in one direction. For Ukraine continuing to fight is not just about a negotiating position but also about what will be left when the fighting ends. It's already generally understood that the population in government-held areas of Ukraine is ~20-25mln. Ukraine had a terrible demographic situation before the war, it has a catastrophic one now. Destruction of infrastructure is starting to reach certain unpleasant levels, with 2026 being a bad year in particular. Russia has now started picking at the bridges over the Dnepr. So far it's damage and disruption, not destruction. But over time it will translate into the actual collapse of bridges. Ukraine's metallurgical industry is borderline dead from a sustained series of Russian strikes. This was a deliberate choice by Russia and it was made this year. Ukraine's agriculture is suffering too, with Russia destroying storage facilities, and port infrastructure needed to move it. Again this was a deliberate choice Russia made relatively recently. Last is the campaign against Ukrainian rail which continues and will cause even more problems. We're not even talking about the damage to the energy grid. Each one is solvable independently, but they add up to a very unpleasant overall picture and one that worsens steadily month over month. This is also one of the reasons why I don't think Ukraine would be quite so willing to let this war fizzle out with a ceasefire. Ukraine needs an end to the war that has Russia paying for some of the damage. It's unlikely Russia will pay for all of it (not without Ukraine making some painful concessions). But it's almost certain the EU won't bankroll a complete reconstruction of Ukraine. In fact it may turn out that the EU will be far less generous with reconstruction funding than it was with war time support. I suspect both sides want something like a definitive victory, and a ceasefire will be used as a break to rearm and reconstitute units. A permanent peace would require actually negotiating based on the current realities on the ground, and for Ukraine it doesn't look like their negotiating position is going to improve with the current trends of the war. Not even with the successes they've had this year. Their rather modest successes, of course. Compare Ukraine's "successes" of 2026 with Russia's advances in 2025 that everyone called snail's pace and with good reason. Even if Ukraine launches another Vivaldi every 6 months for the next 2 years, each as successful as this one, it still wouldn't change the overall picture. And even during Vivaldi suriyak still has Russia making net territorial gains in Ukraine.

I know this paragraph has wandered somewhat but I think all the parts are relevant towards the question of negotiations. I think Ukraine's leadership doesn't like their negotiating position and because of this isn't willing to actually negotiate an end to the war at this time. Russia is willing to negotiate an end to the war under terms pretty close to the current reality on the ground (remember the Anchorage deal?). Continued fighting is a chance for something to change and for Ukraine to theoretically get a better outcome. But that's not where things are trending, meaning that it's probably that any future peace will be worse for Ukraine even the terms of the peace itself don't get any worse. And there is the looming possibility of Ukrainian collapse, or internal political turmoil (admittedly an unlikely though not impossible scenario) that causes Ukraine to lose the war badly. I think Ukraine's best chance is to get the best deal they can now and start to rebuild. I think Ukraine's leadership isn't willing to accept this reality.
 
Except the cost of continuing to fight is also very different. The damage to Ukraine is far more dramatic compared to Russia. The destruction of the country, the refugees, the damage to the economy, they're all massively stacked in one direction. For Ukraine continuing to fight is not just about a negotiating position but also about what will be left when the fighting ends. It's already generally understood that the population in government-held areas of Ukraine is ~20-25mln. Ukraine had a terrible demographic situation before the war, it has a catastrophic one now. Destruction of infrastructure is starting to reach certain unpleasant levels, with 2026 being a bad year in particular. Russia has now started picking at the bridges over the Dnepr. So far it's damage and disruption, not destruction. But over time it will translate into the actual collapse of bridges. Ukraine's metallurgical industry is borderline dead from a sustained series of Russian strikes. This was a deliberate choice by Russia and it was made this year. Ukraine's agriculture is suffering too, with Russia destroying storage facilities, and port infrastructure needed to move it. Again this was a deliberate choice Russia made relatively recently. Last is the campaign against Ukrainian rail which continues and will cause even more problems. We're not even talking about the damage to the energy grid. Each one is solvable independently, but they add up to a very unpleasant overall picture and one that worsens steadily month over month. This is also one of the reasons why I don't think Ukraine would be quite so willing to let this war fizzle out with a ceasefire. Ukraine needs an end to the war that has Russia paying for some of the damage. It's unlikely Russia will pay for all of it (not without Ukraine making some painful concessions). But it's almost certain the EU won't bankroll a complete reconstruction of Ukraine. In fact it may turn out that the EU will be far less generous with reconstruction funding than it was with war time support. I suspect both sides want something like a definitive victory, and a ceasefire will be used as a break to rearm and reconstitute units. A permanent peace would require actually negotiating based on the current realities on the ground, and for Ukraine it doesn't look like their negotiating position is going to improve with the current trends of the war. Not even with the successes they've had this year. Their rather modest successes, of course. Compare Ukraine's "successes" of 2026 with Russia's advances in 2025 that everyone called snail's pace and with good reason. Even if Ukraine launches another Vivaldi every 6 months for the next 2 years, each as successful as this one, it still wouldn't change the overall picture. And even during Vivaldi suriyak still has Russia making net territorial gains in Ukraine.

I know this paragraph has wandered somewhat but I think all the parts are relevant towards the question of negotiations. I think Ukraine's leadership doesn't like their negotiating position and because of this isn't willing to actually negotiate an end to the war at this time. Russia is willing to negotiate an end to the war under terms pretty close to the current reality on the ground (remember the Anchorage deal?). Continued fighting is a chance for something to change and for Ukraine to theoretically get a better outcome. But that's not where things are trending, meaning that it's probably that any future peace will be worse for Ukraine even the terms of the peace itself don't get any worse. And there is the looming possibility of Ukrainian collapse, or internal political turmoil (admittedly an unlikely though not impossible scenario) that causes Ukraine to lose the war badly. I think Ukraine's best chance is to get the best deal they can now and start to rebuild. I think Ukraine's leadership isn't willing to accept this reality.

I don't disagree, but my point was just that “as long as it takes” makes sense from Ukraines and the West’s point of view.

The West can see walking away from Ukraine as worse for its own security and still want Kyiv to settle.

Support can actually help get there. Russia’s betting that Western support runs out, and the pledge tells it not to count on that. Russia might still gain by waiting, but it’ll cost more, which makes a deal look better.
 
I don't disagree, but my point was just that “as long as it takes” makes sense from Ukraines and the West’s point of view.

The West can see walking away from Ukraine as worse for its own security and still want Kyiv to settle.

Support can actually help get there. Russia’s betting that Western support runs out, and the pledge tells it not to count on that. Russia might still gain by waiting, but it’ll cost more, which makes a deal look better.

makes sense from the West’s point of view.
Curiously enough, my point of view all along; even if in a cruder way... To the last Ukrainian soldier.
"As long as" translates as what level of destruction for Ukraine?

which makes a deal look better.
With that, I disagree: Better to dictate terms than to negotiate terms. Or to negotiate terms with NATO, Ukraine will have nothing to offer.
Does Ukraine want money for reconstruction? Jump.
 
I think the answer is obvious.

On the battlefield, this war looks set to grind on for years. That means it will be decided by staying power. Russia believes it can erode Ukraine’s resistance and support before its own will to fight runs out. Its information campaign is built around that. It pushes the points rsemmes regurgitates here so often: that resistance is pointless and support for it need to stop. Ukraine and its backers are trying to signal the opposite: that Russia’s mistaken to bank on that.

That’s why they say “as long as it takes”.

It’s a position you can disagree with, but the rationale is clear.
I don’t agree (probably strongly so) that the rationale is clear at all. It implies that everyone is ready for an open-ended - read infinite - war (I want to say conflict instead of war here, but the conflict will remain after the war is over). It’s an empty bluff because no one is ready. Ukraine least of all. We can even call it crazy - delusion - because no such thing exists.

While Ukraine stood past one US administration, there are numerous more to stand after. And multiples more elsewhere. Biden administration talked about as long as it takes too. That ended before his administration did.

One cannot deliver what is not real. Defining “it” is crucial. While it implies commitment, but commitment to what? To continuation of war? To what end and for what purpose? Commitment to outlast Russia? That’s nonsense again because Ukraine cannot outlast Russia and remain a functional state. Some, myself including, argue that that point has already been passed a long time ago. Even if that is not the case, what is the purpose of outlasting Russia? If I am wrong and that point didn’t come yet, it will come. There is no credible way one can debate otherwise, I do not think.

This brings us back to the post and the context where I asked the question again. Ukraine wants the call and negotiations (even if the negotiations it currently wants are not realistic). Some supporting countries expressed their outrage that the contact took place because it only serves as a propaganda stage for the Russians, legitimizing whatever it does, and so on. This clearly connects to the slogan of “as long as it takes” because either they don’t know what “it” is or they set some unrealistic and extremely dangerous “it” that has nothing to do with Ukraine at all. “Ukraine decides” also gets lost in translation in this scenario. And note that this is a real scenario that had already happened, not some hypothetical as I discussed in the past.

i will reply to the other part later.
 
I don’t agree (probably strongly so) that the rationale is clear at all. It implies that everyone is ready for an open-ended - read infinite - war (I want to say conflict instead of war here, but the conflict will remain after the war is over). It’s an empty bluff because no one is ready. Ukraine least of all. We can even call it crazy - delusion - because no such thing exists.

While Ukraine stood past one US administration, there are numerous more to stand after. And multiples more elsewhere. Biden administration talked about as long as it takes too. That ended before his administration did.

One cannot deliver what is not real. Defining “it” is crucial. While it implies commitment, but commitment to what? To continuation of war? To what end and for what purpose? Commitment to outlast Russia? That’s nonsense again because Ukraine cannot outlast Russia and remain a functional state. Some, myself including, argue that that point has already been passed a long time ago. Even if that is not the case, what is the purpose of outlasting Russia? If I am wrong and that point didn’t come yet, it will come. There is no credible way one can debate otherwise, I do not think.

This brings us back to the post and the context where I asked the question again. Ukraine wants the call and negotiations (even if the negotiations it currently wants are not realistic). Some supporting countries expressed their outrage that the contact took place because it only serves as a propaganda stage for the Russians, legitimizing whatever it does, and so on. This clearly connects to the slogan of “as long as it takes” because either they don’t know what “it” is or they set some unrealistic and extremely dangerous “it” that has nothing to do with Ukraine at all. “Ukraine decides” also gets lost in translation in this scenario. And note that this is a real scenario that had already happened, not some hypothetical as I discussed in the past.

i will reply to the other part later.

The objective I mean is a settlement that preserves a viable, independent Ukraine. Sustained support can make further Russian gains more costly and a settlement more attractive. Russia doesn’t have to become incapable of fighting for it to prefer an agreement. That requires neither an infinite war nor Russia’s collapse, and it is compatible with negotiating now.

You’re questioning whether the commitment is credible and whether it can work in time. Those are fair challenges to the strategy’s prospects but don’t make its rationale incoherent.
 
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makes sense from the West’s point of view.
Curiously enough, my point of view all along; even if in a cruder way... To the last Ukrainian soldier.
"As long as" translates as what level of destruction for Ukraine?

which makes a deal look better.
With that, I disagree: Better to dictate terms than to negotiate terms. Or to negotiate terms with NATO, Ukraine will have nothing to offer.
Does Ukraine want money for reconstruction? Jump.

My issue isn’t that I disagree with you. I disagree with KipPotapych and Feanor and many others too, but I respect their contributions: they explain their reasoning, are making good arguments, and engage in good faith. They do write in a way that one can follow their thinking.

Your posts here are low quality and, worse, low effort. You keep recycling cheap slogans, and your arguments are so poorly presented that it’s often hard to follow what you’re even trying to say. That dilutes an otherwise substantive discussion and weakens the very positions you’re trying to defend.
 
My issue isn’t that I disagree with you. I disagree with KipPotapych and Feanor and many others too, but I respect their contributions: they explain their reasoning, are making good arguments, and engage in good faith. They do write in a way that one can follow their thinking.

Your posts here are low quality and, worse, low effort. You keep recycling cheap slogans, and your arguments are so poorly presented that it’s often hard to follow what you’re even trying to say. That dilutes an otherwise substantive discussion and weakens the very positions you’re trying to defend.
Ad hominen.
 
It literally isn't. It's not an attack on you as a person, it's a critique of your post quality.
Ad hominen because it is all subjective, because they are my post.

they explain their reasoning, What do I don't explain?
are making good arguments, How is that measured?
and engage in good faith. How does he obtain any knowledge of my faith?
They do write in a way that one can follow their thinking. He cannot follow my thinking, can he ask?
Your posts here are low quality How is that measured?
low effort. How is he measuring that?
You keep recycling cheap slogans, And he is providing what examples?
and your arguments are so poorly presented that it’s often hard to follow what you’re even trying to say. If he cannot follow my thinking, can he ask?
That dilutes an otherwise substantive discussion We all wander away , even if me a bit more than usual; I did explained that.
and weakens the very positions you’re trying to defend. I thought he couldn't follow my thinking.

swerve has been asking me questions that I have been able to answer.
"Brace for the mother of all whataboutisms.
You’ll get a string of questions about everything the West has ever done to anyone, a lecture on how anyone who doesn’t accept the inevitability of full Russia’s victory is just delusional, and no actual answer."

That is him to swerve, that looks to me like fortune telling, he had already decided what I was going to say. Ad hominen because it is confirmation bias, he has decided about my post beforehand; not that we cannot do that.
 
Ad hominen because it is all subjective, because they are my post.

they explain their reasoning, What do I don't explain?
are making good arguments, How is that measured?
and engage in good faith. How does he obtain any knowledge of my faith?
They do write in a way that one can follow their thinking. He cannot follow my thinking, can he ask?
Your posts here are low quality How is that measured?
low effort. How is he measuring that?
You keep recycling cheap slogans, And he is providing what examples?
and your arguments are so poorly presented that it’s often hard to follow what you’re even trying to say. If he cannot follow my thinking, can he ask?
That dilutes an otherwise substantive discussion We all wander away , even if me a bit more than usual; I did explained that.
and weakens the very positions you’re trying to defend. I thought he couldn't follow my thinking.

swerve has been asking me questions that I have been able to answer.
"Brace for the mother of all whataboutisms.
You’ll get a string of questions about everything the West has ever done to anyone, a lecture on how anyone who doesn’t accept the inevitability of full Russia’s victory is just delusional, and no actual answer."

That is him to swerve, that looks to me like fortune telling, he had already decided what I was going to say. Ad hominen because it is confirmation bias, he has decided about my post beforehand; not that we cannot do that.
.....Yawn
 
What, two similar, or equal, things happening in the world at the same time have to do with each other... You wonder!
Well, if you are able to send the war in Ukraine to a singularity in space and time, any mention of UN, International Law or criminal and illegal invasion (bombing counts?) makes sense; to you, or makes you happy or... something.
If, on the other hand, you think that it is actually happening in the real world, in a world of real politik… Why do you, some people really, pretend to ride such a big horse? And an imaginary horse at that.
Coming back to the real world...
Do you wonder why we, selectively defend/support some countries? Hint: UN, law and all that is just a lullaby. Second hint: There is no worse blind man than the one who doesn't want to see.


That is a long, detailed, well thought argument.
Or not.
 
Remind me . . . . what did Ukraine do in the 20+ years before the Russians marched in in 2014?

Spent bugger-all on the armed forces. Let them decay. Let state-owned arms manufacturers decay. Russia wanted a weak, harmless Ukraine? All it had to do was - nothing. It could have kept Ukraine sweet with friendly words, open borders, & some modest subsidies.

The wars were both begun by Russia, either via proxies (e.g. Strelkov/Girkin) or direct invasion.


Really? Russia could have had a friendly & potentially profitable neighbour between it & western countries. Wouldn't that have been better?
Definitely many mistakes we made and Russia is in a bad position. There were surely infinite better scenarios than this. But I am talking about the current situation and what the best course of action is for Russia.

@Redshift
You started to reply to me but only posted this:
You are just descri
 
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