The thesis about the absence of formal non-expansion guarantees does not negate the historical context of the Baker-Gorbachev negotiations, where security principles were discussed. Subsequent expansion was perceived in Russia as a violation of the spirit of agreements from the German reunification period and laid the groundwork for the crisis. It would cost the West nothing to publish the transcripts of these talks and settle the matter of oral promises. According to your cited article
www.brookings.edu, a direct quote from Gorbachev’s (not Putin’s) 2014 interview:
I don’t want to contrast that generation of leaders with the subsequent generation. But a fact remains a fact: it wasn’t done. And European development has been lopsided, which, it should be said, was facilitated by the weakening of Russia in the 1990s. Today we need to admit that there is a crisis in European (and global) politics. One of the reasons, albeit not the only reason, is a lack of desire on the part of our Western partners to take Russia’s point of view and legal interests in security into consideration. They paid lip service to applauding Russia, especially during the Yeltsin years, but in deeds they didn’t consider it. I am referring primarily to NATO expansion, missile defense plans, the West’s actions in regions of importance to Russia (Yugoslavia, Iraq, Georgia, Ukraine). They literally said “This is none of your business.” As a result, an abscess formed and it burst.
Will the real Gorbachev stand up ? Meaning - which quote from Gorbachev is the real one ? yes there was an agreement, or no there wasnt.
At the end of the day, please tell us which treaty was signed between Russia and western nations to not expand NATO:
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You must be joking? The Iraq invasion alone led to the collapse of state institutions and a humanitarian catastrophe resulting in up to 1 million civilian deaths. What legal responsibility did the leaders of the Western coalition—and Blair in particular—bear?
Iraq is free of the odious Saddam. Thats a good thing. Its a functioning democracy. Thats a good thing. 1 million deaths ? Thats an entirely arguable subject.
How many German civilians died in WW2 and do you care for those deaths ? Of course not.
This is unnecessary because England’s former greatness is but a memory. For starters, demands for reparations from India would suffice.
It was your thesis, dont blame me when you just admitted how wrong it is.
The first Russian school in Riga was opened in 1789, before Latvians had fully coalesced as a unified ethnicity. 35% of the population is Russian—this is blatant discrimination on ethnic and linguistic grounds (tell this to EU officials). How do you think the so-called "independent" Western press would frame it if lawful protests were to begin?
How much blatant discrimination (I honestly dont know) is going on ? Having children being removed from houses ? Forced relocation ? You know, like Russia is doing in Ukraine ?
PPP fails to account for: import share, sanctions, technological sophistication, qualifications, quality, etc.
In other words, quantity ≠ quality (see Iraq vs. USA).
Before Serdyukov’s 2008 reforms, the Russian army and defense industry were in dire condition: chronic underfunding, collapse of supply chains, dilapidated infrastructure/equipment, brain drain, etc.
We’re starting to repeat ourselves. NATO was never weak; the U.S. budget and capabilities are colossal.
No we arent - you keep missing the point.
IF, during the nadir of Russian military power in the 1990s, while NATO was relatively strong,
AND
NATO DID NOT invade Russia, then there is no legitimate fear of NATO, now that the military expenditures are much closer.
NATO not weak ? The NATO ground forces are a feeble shadow of thier former selves. As I said before, how many combat BDE can England Germany actually muster these days.
Fear of NATO is as we say, complete baloney, a tired excuse for bad behavior. Putin's own actions are proof of this.
Belarus is not a vassal but a friendly state that was part of Russia from 1772–1991. Relations are based on deep historical, cultural, and economic ties.
Amazing. You take the time to answer part of this sub-thread, but you duck, dodge and weave to avoid the most important part - the question I asked you:
Tell us this:
Does Ukraine (UKR) have the right to be an independant country , to choose to be not a vassal state, like Belarus
[ ] YES
[ ] NO
Starting in 2014, to respect Ukraine’s independence, the West should have: ceased NGO funding, stopped appointing judges/officials, halted ambassador replacements, and refrained from sanctions threats.
Your rationalizations are getting weaker by the sentence.
-cease NGO funding .... "NGO" as in "non-governmental".....as in not directed by the US government. here is what I found on the subject (2014):
- Razom for Ukraine: Founded in 2014, Razom provides humanitarian aid and runs programs focused on health, advocacy, civil society, and culture.
- Nova Ukraine: A nonprofit dedicated to providing humanitarian aid to the people of Ukraine and raising awareness about Ukraine in the US.
- The U.S. government provided funding through organizations such as the International Organization for Migration (IOM) and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), which receive US funding. These organizations then utilize that funding to support operations within Ukraine.
Well, thats some pretty meaty anti-Russian stuff there, and clearly a menace to Russia. <---- sarcasm
- stop appointing judges/officials: here, once again you claim that the US was responsible for maidan and was/is controlling Ukraine as a puppet state (you know, like RU does for Belarus). Total Russian paranoid fantasy. Another tired trope from RT and Sputnik.
- halted ambassador replacements.... what the is even supposed to mean. We have to now get permission from Russia for our ambassadors in countries not-Russia ?
- refrained from sanction threats....ok, no mean words. Got it. Russia can steal Crimea and the rest of the world cant say a thing.
That has to be the weakest, most silly set of justification for the invasion of Ukraine, this side of Moon of Alabama.
The U.S. will not permit EU strengthening via alliance with Russia.
RU-EU trade was flourishing by 2021. Putin killed it, so blame Putin.
The Ukraine provocation succeeded: relations are ruined, and the U.S. pivoted to China.
See everyone....is the "Ukraine provocation" ! Its not Russias fault ! Ukraine tossed out Yanokovich on their own. Why cant you accept that ?
"Pivot to China" ? Maybe you ought to take a look at your economy and see which country has pivoted to China. Russia is now basically an economic vassal of China.
Need I remind you who was the primary beneficiary of Europe’s devastating mid-20th century conflict?
The Soviet Union, who expanded their borders immensely and put millions under the iron boot of communism ?
Do you know the difference between a Russian and a Russian-speaking Ukrainian in Kharkiv, Odesa, or Kyiv?
Thats easy - who cares ? Speaking Russian doesnt make you a Russian citizen. Plenty of Ukrainians speak Russian - but dont want to be a citizen of Russia.
Why cant you accept that ?
You’ve been told repeatedly this isn’t just about NATO. Ukraine and Belarus are key regions for Russia in cultural and civilizational terms. If you will, we’re witnessing a "Clash of Civilizations" à la Huntington.
Looks at you funny: Dont you get it ? Ukraine and Belarus ARE NOT YOURS TO OWN ! This isnt a clash of civilizations, its the dying embers of the Soviet Union given life by Putin - a last gasp at an antiquated notion of greatness.
What is going to happen when Lukashenko dies ? Hes pretty unpopular and only has remained in power due to Russian intervention. If the people of Belarus decide they dont want to be a Russian puppet, will Russian invade them, too ?
Since 1783, Crimea has always been Russian—even when Tatar or Greek—but never Ukrainian. Ukraine historically had zero connection to the peninsula; the 1954 transfer to the Ukrainian SSR was a mere bureaucratic formality nobody noticed. Surely you realize the West won’t allow another referendum—its outcome is obvious?
Pitiful. Everyone here can see your feeble attempts to justify theft. Crimea belonged to Ukraine by agreement, by treaty, and international recognition.
Referendum ? We have plenty that show Crimea wanted to be part of Ukraine. No one on this planet believes for a moment you can get a fair referendum under Russia these days, any more than you could get a fair trial in Russia if you oppose the war.
