The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Redshift

Active Member
I would even say that there is more freedom of speech about Ukraine than about Covid or Climate Change. Topics for which you can by tried and get into serious troubles.
Would you like to cite examples of people being "in serious trouble" for touting conspiracy theories about climate change or COVID in "the west"?

Many many people deny climate change, they aren't persecuted or arrested, the former (and possibly future) president of the USA called climate change a Chinese hoax? Did he suffer any consequences?

Is Piers Corbyn (UK the brother of Jeremy Corbyn, ex leader of the Labour party) spending time in jail for denying climate change, or for denying the existence of COVID?
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
That is why common sense suggested to negotiate in the fall of 2022, when Russia was at its weakest and Ukraine was in the best position, one they will likely never see again. But I already talked about it numerous times, so no need to repeat. Now (or for now) is a “worst” case scenario for the “west”.


I agree on the former. And I hope that the greater war will be avoided. I said a while ago that the “west” would likely send troops to the right bank of the river if the Ukrainian lines were to collapse, which I said was a stretch and not worth discussing. It surely is not as much of a stretch now as it seemed a few/couple of months ago.

On the latter, I do not believe in appeasement. I believe I wrote quite extensively on the subject of commitment on a couple of occasions. This is true for the Russians as much as it was true for the sponsors of Ukraine. It is not possible to predict how things would have developed otherwise. For example, while now we think the nuclear threat may have been overestimated, it was not the case at the time and it is impossible to say which is the case with any high degree of certainty. So I do not believe appeasement is the proper way to look at it.

While the situation was never great for Ukraine, it is now in a really bad spot. Russia can continue to be creeping in for a long time, slowly grinding through the Ukrainian troops and annihilating the infrastructure, most importantly energy, and it is not a wild dream that they will eventually put the entire or, at the very least, most of the country to darkness. Note that they could have done that last year, but they chose to hit the transmission rather than generation capabilities, which further supports a slow escalation and commitment theory, as situation dictates. A lot of the Russian “hawks” suggested way back when this should have been done from the beginning and they were questioning the decision not to strike the power generating assets at the time. Now some suggest that the nuclear power generation should be part of the equation as well.

Anyway, they can keep doing what they are doing for a while yet and simply see the country shrinking and falling apart on its own via migration, lack of funds, degrading economy, and so on.
If Ukrainian defences were to collapse I cannot imagine Russian troops being allowed to approach the borders of Poland and other NATO member state without being challenged. I can't even imagine them tolerating the fall of Odesa. If the Russians chose to stop at the borders of Donetsk, Luhansk and Sumy a greater war could be averted.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
If the Russians chose to stop at the borders of Donetsk, Luhansk and Sumy a greater war could be averted.
Somehow I doubt Russia has more capabilities (under present formation), to advance more then that, if Ukrainian defense collapse. At most Kharkiv/Kharkov and Zaparozhye cities. Even that is very big if. More then that is stretching Russian line too much.

Russian also so far has not shown preparation or capabilities to cross Dniper in big times. I could be wrong, but somehow their formation so far not shown that. So Odessa or even Nickolayev even taking back Kherson city is still big if, even with collapse of Ukrainian defense in Donbas area.

Note: I put Zaparozhye and Kharkiv cities as Russian social media and telegram talks on taking both cities to make sure Ukrainian MIC will not be revive to Soviet era capabilities. Still I have big doubt Russian capabilities on launching attack on both Cities, unless total collapse of Ukrainian Army (not just UA defense in Donetsk).
 

Fredled

Active Member
hauritz said:
If Ukrainian defences were to collapse I cannot imagine Russian troops being allowed to approach the borders of Poland and other NATO member state without being challenged. I can't even imagine them tolerating the fall of Odesa.
It's a big question. IMO, should Russian troops invade Ukraine west of Zhytomyr, the Polish army may enter Ukraine to counter them.

If Russians take Odessa, it may not be tolerated, but there won't be direct interference. Romania doesn't have the military power to move into Ukraine and Poland is too far. IMO only Poland is able to move significant forces into Ukraine if the Russians approach dangerously to their border.
I don't think than any other Western country will want to confront Russia.

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KipPotapych said:
Note that they could have done that last year, but they chose to hit the transmission rather than generation capabilities, which further supports a slow escalation and commitment theory, as situation dictates. A lot of the Russian “hawks” suggested way back when this should have been done from the beginning and they were questioning the decision not to strike the power generating assets at the time.
Maybe because Putin thought that he would take Ukraine within two weeks, and din't want to damage too much what he was ready to take. Even after a few months they still thought that they would take Ukraine within two weeks, so this dragged on.
Now they have understood that they would need to go to the next level if they wanted to reduce the Ukrainian resistance. After moving up two levels already.

KipPotapych said:
Anyway, they can keep doing what they are doing for a while yet and simply see the country shrinking and falling apart on its own via migration, lack of funds, degrading economy, and so on.
A Russian victory would look like this rather than a rapid gain on the battle field. But they are still far from that goal.
Despite visible success in bombing power plants, Ukraine still has juice most of the time in most of the country. Ukraine got a lot of electrical power equipment from the west. Genrators, parts, tools and they can either repair quickly what's repairable or use decentralized source of electricity.
Russia would have to launch at least one or two strikes of this size to obtain a real success in destabilizing the country in this manner. But that would deplete dangerously their long range missile stock.

Ukraine has also successfuly conected its power grid to the West European one during the year 2023. (Now "Western Europe" starts at Bulgary, Romania and Poland). It means that at least the west of Ukraine will never be in the dark unless they cut all the power lines there, which is not easy. Only ballistic missiles can reach western Ukraine.

Finaly, with the US military aid already flowing in, notably including ATACMS and artillery shells, the operation to exhaust Ukrainian defence forces may be compromised.
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Redshift said:
Many many people deny climate change, they aren't persecuted or arrested, the former (and possibly future) president of the USA called climate change a Chinese hoax? Did he suffer any consequences?

Is Piers Corbyn (UK the brother of Jeremy Corbyn, ex leader of the Labour party) spending time in jail for denying climate change, or for denying the existence of COVID?
I didn't say that they can be jailed. I don't remember anyone being jailed for that in Europe or in even the US. But they can be tried and fined.
The European parliament, and I think a few European countries, have voted laws to prevent disinformation. This law tagets precisely: Covid, Climate Change and everything generally deemed as "Right Wing" or "Conspiracy Theory".
This law can't put people in jail, but it can fine and close media outlets and ban content specifically. GAFAMs (Google facebook, YouTube etc) are obliged to filter content to be in respect with the law. This is the most blatant breach of freedom of speach in the EU. Fortunately, it's applied with leniancy since conspiracy theory videos and publications are still widely available on the internet.

I don't know the legal frame in the US in this matter. But, yes, the future POTUS is quiet in troubles in several courts at the moment... ;). It's no coincidence.
 
The west has dithered and this is the result. They should have went hard as soon as Russia invaded and sent Ukraine whatever it asked for. Instead they drip fed Ukraine just equipment to hold the line.
I see this sentiment quite a bit these days, but I'm curious just what limitations you think the West put in place that would have made a strategic difference. The way I see it, the primary things constraining Ukrainian military operations during the first year of the war were lack of air power, lack of trained personnel, and lack of artillery ammunition. They had plenty of kit, which is mostly what was on offer. The West simply didn't have the manufacturing capacity to give them millions of artillery shells right away.

The main things that the West delayed on were standoff weaponry and HIMARS, and I don't see how those arriving a couple months earlier would have given Ukraine an opportunity to win. Air power was never really an option given both the operational realities of Ukrainian airspace and the incredibly complicated tasks of training personnel and logistically supporting NATO aircraft in Ukraine
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
If Ukrainian defences were to collapse I cannot imagine Russian troops being allowed to approach the borders of Poland and other NATO member state without being challenged. I can't even imagine them tolerating the fall of Odesa. If the Russians chose to stop at the borders of Donetsk, Luhansk and Sumy a greater war could be averted.
Ukraina is not a NATO country. I really doubt there will be a NATO-country willing to enter Ukraina to actively join the war and start to attack the Russians.
On the other hand the Russian troops will definitely respect Polands and other NATO-country borders, it is highly unlikely that Russia will purposely cross the border for military actions. Because then NATO has to react.

And like Ananda already said, it will be too much for the Russian armed forces to control so much area and airspace. Even approaching the NATO borders is maybe too much.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

Oskol Front.

Russian forces have resumed offensive operations here after a nearly 3-month lond pause. The last big push here was the sudden grab of Krahmal'noe followed by the fall of Tabaevka. Russian forces have now enetered Kislyarovka, taking half of a village on an elevated position, and resuming pushes south-west out of Tabaevka, gaining some ground towards Peschanoe. If Russian forces can hold their recent gains in Kislovka, Kotlyarovka will likely fall too.


Russian forces assaulting Kislovka.


Near Terny Ukraine has successfully conducted another counter attack gaining back a small piece of ground. This tempo mirrors earlier Russian advances in the area and raises questions about why now. So far the counterattacks are all in the second gully from the bottom.


Seversk salient.

Italian-supplied Puma 6X6 APCs have been spotted in Ukraine. One was destroyed near Belogorovka. Despite not always being very vocal, Italy has been steadily sending vehicles to Ukraine.


Chasov Yar.

It appears Russian forces have been pushed out of the outskirts of the Canal neighborhood. Meanwhile they have made gains in the forest south of the Canal neighborhood.


A Ukrainian UAV carrying two 82mm mortar shells brought down, allegedly by Russian EW, near Chasov Yar.


Ocheretino salient.

Russian forces are continuing to push forward along the highground west of Ocheretino. This is at the same time as they expand the area around the base of the salient, and the sides. Russian forces have taken Novokalinovo, though the flag raising is still ahead, and sweeping operations are still ongoing. They're also inside Keramik though Ukrainian forces are still on the north-western side. Inside Ocheretino itself it seems we have confirmation of Ukrainian forces holding the eastern outskirts, with the rest of the village under Russian control. This hasn't stopped or even slowed Russian pushes on Novobakhmutovka and Soloviovo. Russian forces have also pushed south of Novobakhmutovka, linking up with forces in Berdychy. As before it appears rybar is about a day behind other sources. The suriyakmaps does the best job, in my opinion, of showing the extended Russian lines west of Ocheretino. They are now ~1 km from Novoaleksandrovka. North-east of Ocheretino there are some forces pushing towards Arkhanhel'skoe, but it's likely that village won't really be threatened until Keramik is cleared. Berdychy and Semenovka have falen.


Another knocked out Bradley captured by Russian forces, this one near Stepovoe. As Russian forces advance we can expect many more such trophies.


Russian forces hauling away a captured Abrams.


Peromayskoe-Netayolovo area.

Russian forces have entered Netaylovo, taking about ~30% of the village. New information also suggests that earlier reports putting Nevel'skoe under Russian control were premature, and parts of the village are in no-mans land. It's possible the report of Ukrainian forces withdrawing led to conclusions.


Mar'inka area.

Russian forces are continuing to expand their area of control inside Krasnogorovka. We have footage of another Russian convoy bringing forces into the town, and then leaving. This suggests a shortage of not only artillery, but also anti-tank weapons. It's also unclear if Ukraine is short on FPV drones in that area or if Russian solutions are effective at negating the threat. We also have a fresh Russian attack north-east of Krasnogorovka, capturing an important Ukrainian strongpoint and threatening the town from the north-east. While it sounds like Krasnogorovka is about to fall, the northern side of the town is considerably long then the southern side. If Ukraine has the forces to hold it, Russia could easily spend another 6 months fighting for it, like they did in Pervomayskoe. If they don't of course, it could fall very quickly, it's all private sector houses.

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Novomihailovka.

After capturing the village Russia appears to have halted efforts here. No further advances have been reported, including fields north and south of the locale. It's likely this is an operational pause.

Meanwhile a destroyed T-72EA was found inside Novomihailovka.


Zaporozhye.

Russia is continuing advances insinde the Rabotino salient, entering the northern part of the village from the western side. Russian forces also pushing westward from Verbovoe.


Kherson.

Russian forces have reportedly landed on the island of Nestryga, in the Dnepr. Note there don't appear to have been any Russian positions there, in other words the island is a no-man's land.


Border area.


A Ukrainian FPV drone attacked a fuel truck in Voznesenovka, Belgorod region. 5 civilians were wounded.


Strikes.

Russia hit a hotel in Nikolaev, probably suspecting a Ukrainian staging area. No word on casualties so far.


Russia hit the Kamenka airfield in Dnepropetrovsk, allegedly hitting a UAV staging area. They hit a hangar.


Ukrainian air defenses in Odessa with Yugoslav 20mm autocannons.


In the skies over Odessa Ukrainian forces used an old Soviet Yak-52 turbo-prop to engage what they thought was a Russian Orlan, but what they brought down doesn't look like an Orlan, or even like any other Russian UAV. This could have been friendly fire. What's even more interesting is that ground fire from Ukrainian sources was going up at the same time as this, jeopardizing the Yak-52.


Another series of Ukrainian strikes hit Crimea, but details are lacking.


Ukraine hit the Slavyansk-na-Kuban' oil refinery in Russia. Note this same refinery was recently spotted with anti-UAV cages on it's fuel reservoirs. Of course we don't have details on what exactly was hit.


Ukraine hit a Russian airbase, Kuschevskaya in Krasnodar area. According to Fightbomber, there were no Russian KIA. No word on wounded, and it's plausible the damage was limited, considering they were UAVs.


Other interesting bits.


A video is making the rounds on Russian social media purporting to be a strike on a HIMARS TEL by a Lancet, but it really doesn't look like it. It looks like they hit some sort of truck.


The earlier photo of a T-72B3 mod'16 captured by Ukraine and recaptured by Russia was apparently one of a pair of T-72s captured by Russia.


Chinese Desertcross buggies in Russian service getting anti-UAV cages.


A Russian BMP-3M carrying 4S24 ERA tiles has shown up in the war zone.


Approximately 20 Chekan armored trucks in Russia meant for units heading to the war.


A relatively convincing Russina ZU-23-2 decoy.


Canada will reportedly only deliver the first 10 of the 50 new LAV II ASCV by summer. Note this is the second batch, the first batch which included 39 vehicles was delivered last year and has been seen on the front lines.


Ukraine will reportedly receive 12 T-155 Firtina howitzers.


Ukraine has reportedly informed the Council of Europe that they are halting certain provisions of the European Convetion on Human Rights.

 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Ocheretino certainly looks like a bit of a breakthrough there and the Russians seem to be able to exploit it and are moving fast, relatively speaking. I wonder though if they are going to outrun themselves if they keep expanding west as it appears what they are doing, at least for now. The map from Deepstate that shows more or less the same thing as the Russian sources:

IMG_5749.jpeg

The lack of manpower on the Ukrainian side is pretty obvious and not likely to be solved any time soon. Also obvious is a complete lack of fortified defense lines. Mixed with the severe shortage of artillery ammunition (among other things), this is a really bad situation for Ukraine. Syrsky talking about Russia trying to seize the “strategic initiative” the other day implies that things are, in fact, pretty bad (probably worse than he lets on?).

“The situation at the front has worsened,” Gen. Oleksandr Syrsky, Ukraine’s top commander, said in a statement on Sunday in which he announced that his troops had retreated from two villages west of Avdiivka, a Ukrainian stronghold in the east that Russia seized earlier this year, and another village further south.[…]

“In an attempt to seize the strategic initiative and break through the front line, the enemy has focused its main efforts on several areas, creating a significant advantage in forces and means,” General Syrsky said on Sunday.



I have been thinking about Zaluzhny for the past few days. The lack defense lines is certainly on him, isn’t it? However, the guy was talking about the urgent need for mobilization many months ago, now longer than the (best, ie western) training Ukraine (west, of course) had provided for their troops. Instead they have been looking for the additional personnel in the ghost army of one million all this time, an army that is somewhere but where actually needed. Syrsky clearly complied with the idea when he was appointed. Regardless, lack of proper defense lines is a bit mind boggling.

There were reports earlier (were referred to as rubbish by many) that there was a certain amount of (over)confidence that the Russians would never be able to take Avdiivka so no serious backlines were prepared in that sector. It appears now that there was at least some truth to it. My understanding is that there are quite a few similar strongholds along the front line, some of which are currently really pressured by the Russian forces (read as will likely collapse in near future).

Overall, it appears that the Ukrainians may be experiencing or soon to experience what the Russians did in the summer/fall of 2022, doesn’t it?

I am also curious about the current casualty rates for both sides.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
I see this sentiment quite a bit these days, but I'm curious just what limitations you think the West put in place that would have made a strategic difference. The way I see it, the primary things constraining Ukrainian military operations during the first year of the war were lack of air power, lack of trained personnel, and lack of artillery ammunition. They had plenty of kit, which is mostly what was on offer. The West simply didn't have the manufacturing capacity to give them millions of artillery shells right away.

The main things that the West delayed on were standoff weaponry and HIMARS, and I don't see how those arriving a couple months earlier would have given Ukraine an opportunity to win. Air power was never really an option given both the operational realities of Ukrainian airspace and the incredibly complicated tasks of training personnel and logistically supporting NATO aircraft in Ukraine
A lot of things that could have been done better with the benefit of hindsight.

I would add that even if the West somehow was able to ignore their own defenses and come up the hardware in massive quantities, it is no gurantee of success. Ukraine would need to be capable of organising, training and utilising it effectively. It's had been being pointed out that there were structural and instituational weaknesses within the military that necessitate reforms.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Quietly, Israel is shutting down its Patriot units in favor of more advanced local systems. The process has already begun a while ago, according to the article, but I assume it's boosted by the recent aid package.

Also, I assume it has something to do with Ukraine. Unlike European countries, Israel does not publicize this kind of stuff.

https://www.idf.il/אתרי-יחידות/יומן-המלחמה/כל-הכתבות/כתבות-ייזומות/מערכת-הנשק-פטריוט-מסיימת-את-שירותה-בחיל-האוויר/

Quick googling tells me:
1. A single US Patriot battalion contains 4 batteries, each including one radar, one C2 system, and multiple launchers.
2. Israeli battalion probably identical as I found a post about battery D of the 139th battalion.
3. Israel had 2 battalions until 2021.
4. One battalion was shut down and its batteries were transferred to the other. It is unknown if some systems were withdrawn during the transfer.

This is a decent capacity to transfer to Ukraine. I imagine the US will buy these, have them refurbished and brought to a single standard, and provided to Ukraine.
 
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koxinga

Well-Known Member
Two days ago, Kyiv Post shared an article on the reported purchase of 81 ex-Soviet jets from Kazakhstan. This was subsequently picked up by various websites and media and speculated to be for Ukraine.


However, Kazspecexport, which was responsible for the auction has since came up with a statement of denial.

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I have been thinking about Zaluzhny for the past few days. The lack defense lines is certainly on him, isn’t it? However, the guy was talking about the urgent need for mobilization many months ago, now longer than the (best, ie western) training Ukraine (west, of course) had provided for their troops. Instead they have been looking for the additional personnel in the ghost army of one million all this time, an army that is somewhere but where actually needed. Syrsky clearly complied with the idea when he was appointed. Regardless, lack of proper defense lines is a bit mind boggling.

There were reports earlier (were referred to as rubbish by many) that there was a certain amount of (over)confidence that the Russians would never be able to take Avdiivka so no serious backlines were prepared in that sector. It appears now that there was at least some truth to it. My understanding is that there are quite a few similar strongholds along the front line, some of which are currently really pressured by the Russian forces (read as will likely collapse in near future).

Overall, it appears that the Ukrainians may be experiencing or soon to experience what the Russians did in the summer/fall of 2022, doesn’t it?
A few points. I don't know if the lack of defense lines is on Zaluzhny. We just don't have enough information on the internal workings of the Ukrainian military. Did they have the resources/manpower to build additional defenses?

For Avdeevka, the defenses in the front part of Avdeevka were very formidable, and Russia had many failed attempts to attack into Avdeevka prior to the November push. I can see why someone would not believe Russia would take it. And Russia took considerable losses in that initial push to the rail berm.

Lastly, I don't think what Ukrainians are experiencing today is akin to what happened to Russia is summer or fall of '22. For summer, Russia was still on the offensive. Lisichansk fell in early July. In the fall of '22 Russian forces were stretched extremely thin, and using artillery to hit Ukrainian forces attempting to probe their lines. Consequently they were able to pressure Kherson region, forcing Russia to focus reserves and resources there, and then attack in Khar'kov region, driving right through undermanned Russian lines, collapsing them. There is nowhere where Russia has managed to drive through Ukrainian lines in this manner. There is also nowhere where Russia has successfully replicated Ukrainian efforts against Russian logistical choke points for Kherson region. Russia had no real shortage of munitions in '22, but had a huge shortage of manpower. Ukraine has a shortage of manpower, but not nearly as bad as what Russia had. On the flip side Ukraine has limitations on availability of munitions.

What's happening is that Ukraine is stretched thin but not that thin, and Russia is starting to break Ukrainian lines. Emphasis on starting. This may very well not be a pattern, with increased mobilization efforts and new aid packages they may very well re-stabilize the lines.
 

Fredled

Active Member
KipPotapych said:
Ocheretino certainly looks like a bit of a breakthrough there and the Russians seem to be able to exploit it and are moving fast
I heard on tv/YouTube that the Rusians exploited a rotation failure there. The 47th brigade had to be replaced by the 115th (if I recollect the numbers correctly), but the 47th departed too early and the 115th arrived too late. And when they came the Russians were already there.

Gen. Oleksandr Syrsky said:
The situation at the front has worsened
Unlike others, Syrsky speaks more openly and more frankly about the situation. Even if the news are bad it's good not to hear only BS anymore.
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koxinga said:
I would add that even if the West somehow was able to ignore their own defenses and come up the hardware in massive quantities, it is no gurantee of success. Ukraine would need to be capable of organising, training and utilising it effectively.
I would even say that it was a healthy diet. Ukrainians learnt to do a lot with little. Now that they will get a little bit more, they will do more, and more effectively.

Of course ammunitions should have been deliverd sevral months ago. Thousands of Ukrainians lost their life because of this. And just getting the right amount of ammunitions doesn't require special logistic, training or reforms.
We are talking about lack of basic needs for the troops.
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Sandhi Yudha said:
Ukraina is not a NATO country. I really doubt there will be a NATO-country willing to enter Ukraina to actively join the war and start to attack the Russians.
On the other hand the Russian troops will definitely respect Polands and other NATO-country borders, it is highly unlikely that Russia will purposely cross the border for military actions. Because then NATO has to react.
You don't realize how is the atmosphere currently in the eastern part of Europe.

There is absolutely ZERO trust that Russians will respect NATO-country borders, whatsoever.

The fear of a direct clash with Russians is real. People in the streets are talking about that daily. Military deployment is increasing manyfold, notably with fleets of F35.

In Russia, the language is even more explicit: "By Autumn there will be a war between Russia and NATO". (They think that NATO is a country like the USSR or something). Note that's the second year in a row that they say that.

Don't think that East Europeans will sit and watch the Russians coming up to their border without reaction.
As I said in a previous post, if the Russians reach the West of Ukraine, I'm positive that the Polish army will enter Ukraine before they reach their border.

There is already a certain numbers of volunteers from several European countries in Ukraine. The Russians claim that they have counted 350 french soldiers and that they have killed already 120 of them.
Poles, Czech, Lithuanians and so on are counted in thousands. There is also a large number of Georgians. And a small number of Americans and Canadians
While most of them are mercenaries, nobody knows how many are on private contract and how many on a secret mission.

So the presence of a gradually higher number of European or American soldiers won't be anything new or surprising for anyone.
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US deliveries
Columns of armoured vehicles (strykers) are heading toward Ukraine.
By all evidences, military hardware was prepared and ready to go long before the Congress voted the aid package. The flow of weapons started immediately.

It shows that the US is still the top dog in military deployment and the Euros are still the laggards.

ATACMS on Crimea
Even better: Ukraine already struck Crimea with a dozen of 300km/250miles longer range ATACMS. Russia claimed to have downed 6, and in another sentence "all". Results are not detailed yet.
IMO it was only the first salvo.
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A1 Abrams
Whike the main reason for their withdrawal remains vulnerability from drone attacks, another possible reason is that they also needed maintnance.
And this is not easy with Abrams.
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Taurus
I have been thinking for a while about this topic, since the transcript of a phone call between German generals has been released.
I think that Sholtz is right not to give them if he doesn't want an escalation with Russia.
German engineers would have to either code the trajectory themselves, making them de facto complicit in the attack or teach the Ukrainians to do so. But teaching them would take much more time and would be practicaly the same as encoding the missiles themselves.
In both cases they would have to participate in the planing of the attacks.

Another reason, I think, is that Sholtz doesn;t want the Russians to know about the capabilities of the Taurus, let alone get their hand on an unexploded one.

However, it's less and less taboo to talk abouit sending observers or instructors to Ukraine.
 
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Fredled

Active Member
Feanor said:
I don't know if the lack of defense lines is on Zaluzhny.
I agree. This is decided at meetings of the top brass of the security council, and budgets are voted in the parliament. You can't single out a single person.
Secondly, Ukes have been building defence lines for at least one year now. At first in the north. Now everywhere.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I didn't say that they can be jailed. I don't remember anyone being jailed for that in Europe or in even the US. But they can be tried and fined.
Piers Corbyn was fined for accusing NHS staff of murder. That was under our old laws against slander & libel. He was also fined for organising a public rally during the COVID-19 lockdown, in breach of emergency safety laws.

Saying provably untrue things which are defamatory or endanger public safety is illegal in many places, & that's generally thought a good thing.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Events around the Ocheretino salient are apparently continuing at a rapid pace. Russian forces have apparently cleared Novokalinovo and Keramik and are now contesting Arkhangel'skoe. This drastically thickens the base of the salient and makes a counter-attack to cut it off increasing unlikely. Russian forces are also continuing to push westward out of Ocheretino, along the high ground, towards Progress, and north-west towards Novoaleksandrovka. Lastly Russian forces out of Soloviovo are pushing on Sokol. It still doesn't appear the situation is stabilizing at all and the tempo of advance for Russian forces is unprecedented since '22. Particularly dramatic is how quickly lines between the Novokalinovo salient and Ocheretino salient were taken, likely due to a Ukrainian withdrawal. There is a major strongpoint there, with trenchlines visible on satellite imagery. That having been said, it's still a relatively slow advance by the standards of a maneuver war. I will try for another update today or tomorrow, time permitting.
 

Fredled

Active Member
Russia hits Odessa with ballistic missiles (again).
They used to hit port infrastructures and grain storage in the past. It seems that they targeted civilian areas and the Promenade the last two times.
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Ukrainian drones attacked the Ryazan Oil Refinery (again).
Acording to Politico, these strikes, which were still irrelvant one month ago, start to have an effect on gasoline prices. Prices are up 10% in one week.
Not enough the break the back of the giant oil producer and exporter, but given the relatively low budget means used by the Ukrainians, it's impressive.
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Feanor said:
vents around the Ocheretino salient are apparently continuing at a rapid pace. .... That having been said, it's still a relatively slow advance by the standards of a maneuver war.
Because we have been used to very slow gains from one side or another, and to an almost static front line.
Russians keep on advancing, but they are not yet able to drive with their IFV's and BMP's through the countryside. They move basically on foot. Their vehicles get hit as soon as they reach the Ukrainian range of fire. (Except some instances that you documented in previous posts).
When Ukrainians withdraw, it's only a few miles back. Then they are waiting the Russians again.
We cannot talk about Ukrainian defence line collapse yet. Rather a move backward of their defence line.
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On a humorous note:
After sacking Hanna Maliar and Natalia Humeniuk, the Ukrainian male leadership has decided that female AI robots will be more reliable as spokepersons.
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Part 1 of 2 due to a lengthy post:

A few points. I don't know if the lack of defense lines is on Zaluzhny. We just don't have enough information on the internal workings of the Ukrainian military. Did they have the resources/manpower to build additional defenses?
I am guessing the answer on the funds would be a no, or at least unlikely. The answer to the availability of manpower seems to be pretty clear now. However, there is also an argument of how one manages the limited resources at hand and construction of defense lines should have been among the top priorities since mid-end of June of last year, basically when it was realized that the breach of the Russian defense lines and a breakthrough was no longer a given (I would call it highly unlikely myself). Instead, at least publicly, there was no discussion of building Ukrainian defense lines until probably mid fall or so, give or take a month. Counteroffensive, on the other hand, was discussed ad nauseam, beginning shortly after the culmination of the previous one (Kharkiv/Kherson) to the point of great details of where they were going to attack and when. I would think as Commander-in-Chief, it was Zaluzhny’s role to stress the importance of the defense strategy in the circumstances Ukraine found itself in last summer… Yes, you are right. I actually caught myself here while writing the above: the president didn’t even like the idea of realization that their offensive was over long after it was and may have “fired” Zaluzhny because of it. Certainly, we are not privileged to that information, as you mentioned.

For Avdeevka, the defenses in the front part of Avdeevka were very formidable, and Russia had many failed attempts to attack into Avdeevka prior to the November push. I can see why someone would not believe Russia would take it. And Russia took considerable losses in that initial push to the rail berm.
That is still an indication of poor planning.

Not that long ago, I read an interview of Niall Fergusson with the German Welt, where he said (via Google translate from German, of course):

It seems as if many here have forgotten a historical lesson: Russia often has a bad first half in wars. And then wins in the second.

I would suggest here that we, random people having a discussion on an internet forum, along with a bunch of analysts with various qualifications in various fields doing their thing analyzing, are not privileged to a whole lot of information that is certainly available to the Ukrainian command and higher up advisors and decision makers. I would argue that at least some of that information (likely a good amount and most) is also available to their “western” counterparts who make the decisions on the aid and best support given the limitations at hand (availability of such aid, production constraints, information and intelligence constraints, forecasts based on imperfect information, to some degree public support, among many others). Everyone that followed, as we all or most of us did here, saw that pretty much after the initial Russian “grand entrance and the subsequent epic fail”, the reports of underestimating have been the norm: we underestimated Russian determination, capacity to learn and adapt on the battlefield, capacity to produce, capacity to adapt to sanctions, Russian population’s support of the leadership, and a whole bunch of other underestimations.

But simply sticking with the Ukrainian familiarity with the internal situation, which they have the most intimate knowledge of, it is easy to conclude that lack of strategic planning is a real thing. They surely know the size of their army; they know that the volunteer lines at the recruitment centers had dried up very long time ago and that mobilization is rather difficult; they know exactly how many men they recruit and mobilize each day; they have a fairly good idea about the casualties they sustain daily; and so on. In other words, they have a pretty good idea on the resources they have at hand. They are also well aware of the uncertainty in regard to the availability of resources supplied by the partners beyond short term. It just seems completely unreasonable to ignore the proper defenses by the Ukrainian decision makers. After all, with the limited information available to us, mostly in the open sources, some of us here could foresee the potential issues - namely the events that are unfolding now - with a fair degree of accuracy.

Consider what the Russians are doing instead: they are still building their defenses, be it at the front line, their borders, or in Crimea (of all places). My apologies, but I can only cite these examples via Twitter links:



Of course, the availability, if not abundance in comparison, of resources (any resources, be it men, engineering expertise, finances, etc) is an obvious difference. This wasn’t the case, however, when the Russians began construction of their lines, as I discuss below. So again, it is also about the choices of how the resources are used.

Secondly, Ukes have been building defence lines for at least one year now. At first in the north. Now everywhere.
They started building their defense lines last December, if not later, and they have not been very efficient at it either. This is a good article:


I’d note here the following:

But in contrast to Russia, which had spent months constructing its defensive lines while its own forces held the initiative over winter and spring, Kyiv did not take the same measures while Ukrainian forces were attacking over summer.

The reason I want to note that part is because the Russians started building their defenses when they were still stretched on the manpower, possibly more so than Ukraine is currently. The difference in the approach and beyond short-term planning is quite obvious. We can clearly see the results of the Russian approach coming to fruition right now. One had fixed the roof while it was sunny, the other is running with buckets to catch water after it started raining.

Here is another article from the Wall Street Journal on the subject of the Ukrainian defense lines:


It is behind a paywall, so I will cite a couple of paragraphs.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky ordered the construction of an extensive network of fortifications aimed at holding back Russian forces, signaling a switch to the defensive posture after a monthslong Ukrainian counteroffensive yielded only small gains.[…]

He called on private companies and donors to get involved in a campaign to finance and build the fortifications, which he described as an “obvious priority,” and thanked all Ukrainians engaged in sourcing and manufacturing the required materials.


It became an “obvious priority” only in November-December 2023, about 4 months ago, which again clearly shows lack of planning abilities or, at least, capacity to implement. To rely on the belief that Russians would never take Avdiivka is not a plan, of course.

Zelensky said the areas most in need of fortifying were in the eastern Donbas region, where few rivers and other natural obstacles exist to prevent a possible Russian push. Moscow’s forces have in recent weeks intensified a campaign to seize the Donbas town of Avdiivka, where Ukraine has staged a costly defense effort and says Russia has lost thousands of troops.


The “areas most in need of fortifying” that “were in the eastern Donbas region” are currently overrun by the Russian forces at the fastest pace since 2022.

Lastly, I don't think what Ukrainians are experiencing today is akin to what happened to Russia is summer or fall of '22. For summer, Russia was still on the offensive. Lisichansk fell in early July. In the fall of '22 Russian forces were stretched extremely thin, and using artillery to hit Ukrainian forces attempting to probe their lines. Consequently they were able to pressure Kherson region, forcing Russia to focus reserves and resources there, and then attack in Khar'kov region, driving right through undermanned Russian lines, collapsing them. There is nowhere where Russia has managed to drive through Ukrainian lines in this manner. There is also nowhere where Russia has successfully replicated Ukrainian efforts against Russian logistical choke points for Kherson region. Russia had no real shortage of munitions in '22, but had a huge shortage of manpower. Ukraine has a shortage of manpower, but not nearly as bad as what Russia had. On the flip side Ukraine has limitations on availability of munitions.

What's happening is that Ukraine is stretched thin but not that thin, and Russia is starting to break Ukrainian lines. Emphasis on starting. This may very well not be a pattern, with increased mobilization efforts and new aid packages they may very well re-stabilize the lines.
Of course, I didn’t mean to imply that the Russian forces will be in Kramatorsk and beyond next month. I am just pointing out the similarities of the situation, not the magnitude.
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Part 2 of 2:

I think the current situation for Ukraine is quite similar and in some (many) ways worse than it was for Russia in the fall of 2022. Ukrainian lines are stretched, they have to move their limited resources from one place to another in the attempts to plug holes in order to avoid a breakthrough. How badly are they stretched? Well, we don’t know, but so far it doesn’t appear to be as catastrophic as it was for Russia in the fall of 2022. The ammunition situation is certainly worse, however, and it will remain to be the case for the foreseeable future. While Russia has not replicated Ukrainian efforts against Russian logistical choke points for Kherson region, Ukrainians don’t have the natural barrier that made the organized Russian retreat from Kherson possible (as well as made the Ukrainian offensive there a success in the first place). While organized retreats don’t seem to be their strength to begin with, Ukrainians have to do what they do now without taking a pause because there is nothing to stop the Russian forces to move further. So that is definitely worse. Not to make it longer than it already is, the main factor, however, back in the fall of 2022 the Russians haven’t really began tapping into their available “back-burner” resources yet. Ukraine, on the other hand, is on the verge of running out of these “back-burner” resources. This is a very significant difference, in my opinion. So are things going to improve and will they be able to stabilize the situation? It doesn’t seem very likely to me, definitely not for a while. Is there a potential for things to get worse or much worse? It does seem more likely to me than the former. But it is too early to say what is going to happen. In place of Russians, I would now be concerned of overrunning myself and finding my infantry in a vulnerable position around that area, especially if the artillery ammunition suddenly becomes available to the defending side. But I also do not have the information the Russians have at their disposal and it looks like they are flattening that salient quite a bit. There are also “fresh off the press news” that the Ukrainians are throwing the 110th back in service:


Here is a thread on Twitter by one guy (Konrad Muzyka), who is not usually pessimistic and there he basically talks about what I talked about in my previous post. I am going to paste the entire thing here as I had to translate it for myself from Polish anyway (via Google translate):

I would like to invite you to read a short thread about the current situation on the front. In short, the situation looks very bad and is not expected to improve in the coming weeks.

There are three reasons for the current state of affairs and, in principle, there is nothing groundbreaking here, because the problems on the Ukrainian side have been known for a long time: lack of ammunition, people, fortifications.

To understand the shortage of artillery ammunition, it is enough to mention that on the Ukrainian side there are units whose expenditure has decreased by 70-90% compared to the summer of 2023. Artillery fire is limited to a minimum and often must be authorized by brigade commanders.

In this context, American aid is now crucial because it will help reduce the disproportion between Russian and Ukrainian numbers. But we are still talking about reducing asymmetry, not achieving parity. Ukrainian restrictions on access to guns and barrels will effectively affect the number of shots that Ukrainians can fire.

But what will come from the USA will not change the course of this war, but will only delay it. We are still waiting for long-term and systemic solutions, both from the US and Europe, and the presentation of a specific plan for military support for Ukraine in this war, which would allow it to focus on planning (together with Western advisors) and conducting activities on the front in order to rebuild the initiative.

The start of the construction of the fortifications was delayed. In the context of emerging reports about potential Russian attacks in the direction of Chernihiv, Sumy and Kharkov (in my opinion, this information is part of the Russian reflexive control mechanism), Kiev had to face the dilemma of choosing a priority area.

Analyzing publicly available satellite photos of the areas where Russia is currently attacking (towards Pokrovsk and Konstantinivka), there are no visible fortified lines. It seems that the Ukrainians have focused on building point positions of resistance, which, however, are susceptible to flanking maneuvers, which is already taking place. We can only hope that additional fortifications are being built deep inside the Donetsk Oblast.

However, the shortage of soldiers is the key factor that will have the greatest impact on the development of the situation on the front in the next 3-4 months. During this time, newly mobilized soldiers will begin to appear on the front, but there is also the possibility of reducing their training time to a minimum in the event of a Russian breakthrough or lack of reserves. In this case, Ukraine may find itself in the same situation as Russia in September 2022.

We are currently seeing attempts to fill the gaps in the front line by transferring units from other directions and involving the 47th Mechanized Brigade or the 3rd Assault Brigade. Nevertheless, such actions are difficult to maintain in the coming months due to the personnel losses on the Ukrainian side.

We have reached the point where the situation on the front is the worst since March 2022. The numerical advantage of the Russians is constantly growing, as is the number of attacks. Ukraine did not survive the darkest hour. It's just about to start.


Here is another good thread on Twitter by Dara Massicot on the recent developments that should be readable to everyone here:


I feel like I already cited this, but another Twitter thread by Rob Lee, also cited by Dara in her thread above, and should be readable here:


This one by Pasi Paroinen is very good too, also cited by Dara above:


Another good read from Tatarigami:



I heard on tv/YouTube that the Rusians exploited a rotation failure there. The 47th brigade had to be replaced by the 115th (if I recollect the numbers correctly), but the 47th departed too early and the 115th arrived too late. And when they came the Russians were already there.
The “main” proposed theory by the Ukrainians is that there was a rotation error, as you indicated (except it was 115th was supposedly to be replaced by the 47th). And it is understandable why they would rather push that chain of events. However, from all indications, it appears that the 115th was either easily battled out or simply abandoned their positions. See the post translated from Polish I cited above for reference. This article from Forbes suggests as much:


It is fairly clear that the 47th was not supposed to participate in any rotations there. Moreover, they appear to have taken significant losses as well in and near Ocheretino as a result.

Unlike others, Syrsky speaks more openly and more frankly about the situation. Even if the news are bad it's good not to hear only BS anymore.
If I start expanding on this and provide references and citations to prove this is not the case, I am going to need “part 3” to the post, lol. So I am just going to say that, in my opinion, this is not the case and I do believe he is giving the “bad news” because the news are, in fact, worse than he is claiming.
 
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