The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Ananda

The Bunker Group
prevent further military supplies coming across the Polish border but how far are they willing to push this.
That's good question. Doing that going to risk potential direct clash with Nato across the border. I believe it is related how they are progresing in North, East and South, as this is seems how the operations aim.

If they able to secure that including flow of the water toward Crimea (which seems their operation in South part of that), potentialy they stop and consolidate what they are already hold. There're may be Ukraine armed forces left in West, but will that be enough to attack Russian Position in North, South and East ? (if Russian then decided to comsolidate and hold).

I don't think Russia aim to conquer all Ukraine. By carving South, East and North, they seems already get what they after.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
you are wrong about "carving Ukraine". They want to take Kiev to insert a pro-Russian goverment, there are attacks all over, and they have also said they are going to "de-militarize Ukraine". Not just the Eastern parts.
Let's agree to disagree. I also talk with market people that specialise on Russian and near russian market. They don't see Russia aim to conquer all Ukraine. They want to push Ukraine just like what they did with Georgia. Pacifying Georgia as Potential Nato spring board, will be similar with what they are aiming in Ukraine.

As for the demiliterise, by destroying most of Ukraine Armed Force, destroying their Navy, their AF, their armoured divisions, is practically already demiliterise.

Attack every where ? Do you see they are attacking and putting ground troops outside North, South and East ? The pattern of their operation already see that.

Again that's speculation based on some in market see on Russian political aim and their capabilities. They might be wrong, but so far the pattern of Russian operation still shown they might be right.
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
PR moves do not save Ukrainian lives — technical solutions do.
No doubt but given the situation; the Ukrainian government wants to show it has the full support of the populace and that the country is waging '''total war'' against the Russians. Thus the highly desperate steps of issuing assault rifles to anyone who wants one and the use of molotov cocktails has to be seen in this light.

Not that these are significant in themselves (look like bazookas out of an old WWII movie to me).
It shares a similar designation to the WW2 Panzerfaust but it's a completely different weapon.

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A Norwegian lieutenant colonel and head teacher at the Norwegian Armed Forces College believes Putin has made three misjudgements:
  • He has underestimated the Ukrainian opposition.
  • He has underestimated how united the rest of the West is around Ukraine and how much support they will provide.
  • He has underestimated how unpopular this is going to be in Russia.
The Lieutenant Colonel may be right but I seriously doubt that Putin ''underestimated how united the rest of the West is around Ukraine and how much support they will provide'' given that the West repeatedly made it clear over and over and over again what it would do if Putin invaded. During talks with several Western leaders Putin was also provided with additional reminders.

Putin I'm sure knew an invasion would not go down well with the Russian populace but is banking on achieving his military and political objectives before things really get bad for him at home.
 
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Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
Comments from Andriy Zagorodnyuk (former Ukrainian defence minister) earlier today that Belarus is about to join Russia in attacking Ukraine. We shall see, but if it happens it smacks of desperation from Putin (he will have made the call).

I would question how motivated Belarusians would be to go into a meat grinder, especially given there is quite a lot of hatred towards Lukashenko amongst the general population. I couldn't comment on how far the Belarusian military feels the same way, but they must be less reliable than Russian forces. This is speculation on my part, but I think using them is a gamble - it's not impossible that there would be units surrendering or abandoning their equipment as soon as they met determined resistance. Could also lead to another round of mass protests in Belarus against Lukashenko.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
A Norwegian lieutenant colonel and head teacher at the Norwegian Armed Forces College believes Putin has made three misjudgements:
  • He has underestimated the Ukrainian opposition.
  • He has underestimated how united the rest of the West is around Ukraine and how much support they will provide.
  • He has underestimated how unpopular this is going to be in Russia.
The Lieutenant Colonel may be right but I seriously doubt that Putin ''underestimated how united the rest of the West is around Ukraine and how much support they will provide'' given that the West repeatedly made it clear over and over and over again what it would do if Putin invaded. During talks with several Western leaders Putin was also provided with additional reminders.

Putin I'm sure knew an invasion would not go down well with the Russian populace but is banking on achieving his military and political objectives before things really get bad for him at home.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
The Lieutenant Colonel may be right but I seriously doubt that Putin ''underestimated how united the rest of the West is around Ukraine and how much support they will provide'' given that the West repeatedly made it clear over and over and over again what it would do if Putin invaded. During talks with several Western leaders Putin was also provided with additional reminders.
You say that, but he's just put his nuclear forces on a special alert status. That does not sound like someone who is seeing events unfold as he expects but rather scrabbling around for some way to get us to back off from helping Ukraine.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
If indeed the Belarussians enter the war perhaps their units will be employed on secondary or rear area duties in order to free up Russian troops.

Meanwhile, conflicting statements about the so called talks. The Ukrainians have made it clear that there will be no talks in the Belarus but there have been reports that the Russian delegation is waiting the Ukranian delegation to arrive and the the Ukrainians are on the way. The Belarussian leader has been on the phone with his Russian.and Ukrainian counterparts to get the talks going.
 

denix56

Active Member
Putin orders the increased readiness for the forces, that include nuclear wepons:

Ukrainian delegation is going to meet with Russian one at the border (taken from the Ukrainian president office telegram channel):

Олександр Лукашенко зателефонував Володимиру Зеленському.

Політики домовилися, що українська делегація зустрінеться з російською без попередніх умов на українсько-білоруському кордоні, в районі річки Прип'ять.

Олександр Лукашенко взяв на себе відповідальність за те, що на час проїзду, переговорів та повернення української делегації всі літаки, гелікоптери та ракети, розміщені на білоруській території, залишаться на землі.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
You say that, but he's just put his nuclear forces on a special alert status.
Indeed I did day that but him putting his nuke forces on alert is part of the game he's playing and doesn't necessarily have to do with the fact that be underestimated how united determined the West wa/ is in supporting the Ukraine. I also dismiss the notion that the move is intended to make the West back off.
 

denix56

Active Member
Indeed I did day that but him putting his nuke forces on alert is part of the game he's playing and doesn't necessarily have to do with the fact that be underestimated how united determined the West wa/ is in supporting the Ukraine. I also dismiss the notion that the move is intended to make the West back off.
The problem is that quite a big amount of people thought that his army at the Ukrainian borders is also part of the political game and nothing will come out of it.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
From the Guardian live feed: "President Zelenskiy said the Ukrainian and Russian delegations will meet without preconditions."

The problem is that quite a big amount of people thought that his army at the Ukrainian borders is also part of the political game and nothing will come out of it.
It's clearly for show, the question is whether he assumed he'd have to do it or it's an unplanned attempt to get NATO to stop sending help to Ukraine.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
The problem is that quite a big amount of people thought that his army at the Ukrainian borders is also part of the political game and nothing will come out of it.
Why are you conflating both issues? Are you suggesting that Putin putting his nuclear forces on alert means they'll eventually be used?

Disagree or not but him putting his nuclear assets on alert is intended as a strong political message to show his displeasure and to remind the West that Russia has the beans to strike back if the West takes things to a new level. It is not intended to make the West back of and is not a sign that Putin underestimated how determined and united the West is to stand behind the Ukraine.
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
From the Guardian live feed: "President Zelenskiy said the Ukrainian and Russian delegations will meet without preconditions."

It's clearly for show, the question is whether he assumed he'd have to do it or it's an unplanned attempt to get NATO to stop sending help to Ukraine.
First of all It was the Ukraine which first proposed talks. Secondly I doubt the Russians are as as naive to think or believe that the talks will ''get NATO to stop sending help to Ukraine''.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
First of all It was the Ukraine which first proposed talks.
Both sides have proposed talks. The Kremlin claimed Ukraine had refused to talk. Zelensky refused to have them in Belarus or with preconditions. It appears now a compromise for the location has been reached. Whether a ceasefire can be agreed is a different matter.

Secondly I doubt the Russians are as as naive to think or believe that the talks will ''get NATO to stop sending help to Ukraine''.
I was quoting denix56, who in turn was talking about the nuclear alert status, not the talks.

Personally, I feel it's much more efficient to deal with multiple points in a post where I can than spamming the thread.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Both sides have proposed talks.
The idea for talks came from Zelensky who mentioned it in an adress he gave about 48 hours ago. I'm have no idea what he hopes to achieve and I can imagine that his Western backers are a bit worried about certain concessions he might make.

Personally, I feel it's much more efficient to deal with multiple points in a post where I can than spamming the thread
Which exactly what I try to do when I can.
 

Arji

Active Member
Maybe this is a bit out of topic, but apparently there's a little controversy caused by an oopsie by a CBS reporter, when he attempted to compare the situation in Ukraine with the wars in the middle east.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/t2adp9
Then I found out there's a whole article in Al Jazeera about this very topic. here.
I just thought it's interesting that there has been places at war for decades, but it is so out of sight and out of mind for most westerners, that it becomes almost a norm. It's kind of sad actually.

They really find it hard to believe that European city can be turned into a battlefield. Did they actually forgot about Sarajevo?
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
''derision and anger on social media, with many pointing out how his statements contributed to the further dehumanisation of non-white, non-European people suffering under a conflict within mainstream media''

Did they actually forgot about Sarajevo?
Kosovo and Bosnia happened less than a decade after the end of the Cold War [the geo political.situation was different] and was along the periphery of Europe. With the Ukraine it's different, it's right in the centre of Europe and is caught between the East and the West. What's happening in the Ukraine resonates much more with a Western audience in a way conflicts in the Balkans and other places didn't.

On actual news reporting yes, how media organisations tend to portray things depends on overall.circumstances. We can point out that most major news organisations tend to selective when in.comes to civilian casualties in the Middle East and other areas. This gives rise to the feeling or perception from a non Western audience of Western media organisations which are biased or even prejudiced.
 

Toptob

Active Member
A lot of puzzling things going on in this conflict so far. The twitter thread posted above leaves me with a lot of questions, and some disagreements.

1. I agree with @Feanor that I don't believe that they made up BTG's with a mish mash of companies from different units or that they lacked in planning support for these units. Aren't these BTG's supposed to be combined arms units with organic support companies? And because they are supposed to be THE maneuver unit for Russian conops, wouldn't a parent unit concentrate their best troops in one battalion because that would be the unit that will be deployed if necessary. Also wouldn't it be better to concentrate your best troops in one unit to keep the negative externalities that come with lower morale and/or conscript units away from them so as to assure at least the combat effectiveness of that unit?

2. But is there some credence in arguments that say that these are not all the best troops Russia has available? One analyst on the Duran (I know they're biased) made the argument that a lot of the units are green, and not the battle hardened veterans and other highly experienced troops. The above mentioned twitterer also hinted at this, only he suggested there where inexperienced companies interspersed into larger units. One more thing that makes me suspect there's credence in this argument is the battle damage reports that @Feanor so kindly keeps us updated with. Those show a lot of destroyed T-72's, and BMP2's, some T-80's and in @Feanor 's latest post I saw a destroyed BMP-3. But there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of very new, or top of the line equipment among the wreckage I've seen so far. The lack of air coverage is another indicator of coarse.

So what does this mean? I could be totally wrong and I'm not looking close enough. But are the Russians not sending in their best units just yet? Or do they just don't have enough T-80's, T-90's and BMP-3's to equip these units? Another explanation could be that they are using this conflict to "bloody" their less experienced troops? That could lend credence to the argument that they are encountering more resistance than they where expecting, and they bit of more than their "green" troops could chew? But then again, wouldn't you send in your best troops in the initial assault?

3. One more thing that puzzles me is that the Russians look to be trying very hard to avoid civilian casualties. This is laudable of course, however in the thread above @Feanor was wondering about the formation of Russian troops following an armored vehicle and talking about the possibility of ambushes. This video was filmed from an apartment overlooking these troops moving through a city street. And when I think about it, they could post ambushes or snipers in plenty of places. It is after all an urban environment and that can be hell to fight in, but the Russians aren't going door to door clearing houses like we've seen for example in Fallujah. This would instantly make the soldiers extremely unpopular. But I haven't seen reports that the Ukrainians are engaging in such tactics either, so it looks that other than in Kyiv there has not been a lot of tactics used that would make the civilian population a target.

4. Speaking of these tactics, one of the most bewildering things I've seen is the Ukrainians handing out weapons to people in Kyiv. Have they been doing this anywhere else? Or is this some desperate thing they're doing there and most local leaders are keeping more level headed about this? Because I think arming random civilians is a terrible idea! For one it makes all civilians a target because you don't know who is dangerous. Plenty of innocent people have died in Iraq and Afghanistan because civilians where indistinguishable from combatants.

Another thing, that we've seen already, is the possibility of friendly fire. Or people mistaking each other for the enemy, like the reports where captured "infiltrators" where not and their mission getting hindered by rando's with AK's. And besides all of that, even the supposed upsides are not what they seem. Holding a line with untrained civilians who don't know military tactics, have questionable weapon handling skills and morale doesn't seem like a recipe for success.

5. Finally, as for the goals of this operation... Well none of us are mind readers, so we can't say anything with certainty. But we can make inferences from what we see, and the events over the last days and the shape the battlefield is taking do seem to indicate a number of things. For one I disagree with the people saying that the Russians want to conquer or occupy Ukraine, I have never though this, and I stand by it. To think that the Russians expected to be invited in like liberators or that they expected the Ukrainians not to be hostile. Any rational person ,and I think Putin and the Russian high command to be at least that, wouldn't expect that any people will be receptive to a foreign army rolling through their streets, causing mayhem and disrupting their lives.

I think they are securing the area's that they absolutely want to be "up for discussion" and they avoid the rest. What we see is that they are assaulting in the South, because they want something with or for the Crimea. They let the "rebels" in the East make some territorial gains, and they attack Kyiv to force a surrender or negotiations. So in my opinion they have no interest in Kyiv, but it's necessary to for leverage. And their offensives in the South and the East are to create a "de facto" situation if negotiations don't get them what they want.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
One more thing that puzzles me is that the Russians look to be trying very hard to avoid civilian casualties.
This isn't the Soviet army of 1941-1945 which was willing to incur large numbers of casualties in order to secure it's objectives.

Also, Putin is very aware that large deferment of the Russian populace, whilst agreeing to his policy over the Donbas, would not support an invasion of the Ukraine. Large numbers of casualties plays a big part in further influencing pubic opinion.

Speaking of these tactics, one of the most bewildering things I've seen is the Ukrainians handing out weapons to people in Kyiv.
It's part of the move at enable a 'total defence' strategy, to enable those not in the military to do their part - a highly desperate but politically and symbolic move. Not much different from individuals in their 60s taking up arms in Chechnya, men in their 70's firing on T-34s with a Panzerfaust in Pomerenia or middle aged house wives in Bosnia becoming snipers.

We may not agree with such moves and point out that it leads to uncessary civilian casualties and that civilians or none combatants have other more productive ways to contribute but it is what it is.
 
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