The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

[ngatimozart]

The M777 is not already almost 20 years old. The modern American howitzer is the M109A7, which the Americans are quickly procuring, while upgrading their M109A6's to the newest standard. The M777 served its role, but the Americans are moving on from it as quickly as they can produce more M109A7's. A 20 year old weapon is not modern by American Standards.

As for Leopard tanks, there are hundreds in storage, around the world. Between 2A4, 2A5, and 2A6 variants, the West could cobble together 500 of them if they had the actual desire to defeat Russia. Germany has a couple hundred active and a couple hundred in storage. Spain has a couple hundred active, and more in storage. Norway, Poland, Portugal, Turkey, Greece, The Netherlands, Denmark, Austria, etc.... They all have them in storage and significant quantities could be cobbles together.

The Americans have more than 1,100 Patriots. If they wanted them to be sent to Ukraine, they could make it happen. They could take them from a variety places where they are currently operational. Some of the assets that they are currently defending could easily receiver other air defense systems instead. 50 is less than 5% of what they have.

1000 Humvees with TOW's, 50. CAL and grenade launchers would be a drop in the bucket for the USA. They have more than 100,000 Humvees and they're replacing almost all of them with their Oshkosh JLTVs. The USA has already announced around 1000 of them to Ukraine in packages and the Ukrainians are putting them to good use. 1000 more would retrofit several more battalions of high mobility infantry and keep the pressure on the Russians to keep up in the deployment of assets... You create teams of them with TOW missiles and Javelin armed soldiers in the Turret mount, hunting Russia tanks and quality IFV's. A cheap and effective trade off for the Ukrainians.

Of course the influx of Western weapons into Ukraine is hampered by the speed of training. You would, obviously, have to phase in this material over the course of months. You'd also have to set up additional training camps in Europe to selectively train Ukrainians how to use these weapons in mass quantities. It's highly doable, however. Europeans are already slated to train North of 25,000 Ukrainians outside of Ukraine in Q4 2022 and throughout 2023. Sending them back, gradually, the above weapons / systems wouldn't be particularly hard.

Let's say the NATO / EU spends a collective $100-$125 Billion U.S dollars between tomorrow and the end of 2023. I'm talking the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Britain, South Korea, the entire EU and the Scandinavian countries that are about to join NATO. Do you think that's a high price to pay to effectively neuter the Russian Army for a generation and deeply hurt the Russian economy along the way? That's the best deal they're ever going to get, without putting their military personnel in harm's way.

All it requires is the political desire to make it happen. If you follow the inventories and production capacity of the countries that form the alliance that is currently supplying Ukraine, you'd realize that the above list I posted is not far fetched, rather, a substantial logistical hurdle. The West has plenty enough equipment to make Russia's life miserable, despite all the bellyaching about Western military inventories.

You are making some claims here that require sources because they aren't common knowledge within the community. Please provide such sources as per the rules.

 

[IIO2]

The reality is that not all of the kit is obsolete and that even if it was; doesn't necessarily mean it has no utility.



For me the narrative is that despite all the support provided and all the limitations the Russian face; they're still in the fight and look set to be in the fight for quite a while more. Alas I don't have the services of and Oracle or a clairvoyant so I'll just adopt a wait and see approach with regards to how this all ends. What I won't do is just on the ''Russia is weak; has troop badly trained and demoralised; is on its last legs, is running out of missiles; etc, etc, and ''thus it will collapse''; bandwagon.



I'm sorry is this a monologue about what the West has sent; will send and what it can send but hasn't? Because if it is I'm pretty sure everyone here is well aware of the narrative by this stage.



Then instead of pussyfooting they should just get it over and done with.

If we want to talk about what ifs; ''imagine'' if Russia had gone in fully expecting a tough fight; had fully mobilised; had a political leadership which was not living in gagaland and had spent the past few years equipping and preparing the army to fight a high intensity protracted war in the 2nd largest country in Europe rather than short wars.

The reality is that the West has provided very, very, very little support to Ukraine in the grand scheme of things. They've sent a handful of howitzers. They have not sent a single Western tank that isn't a variant of a Soviet tank. They haven't sent a single Western fighter jet or attack helicopter. They haven't sent a single Western Cruise missile. They've sent, very, very few air defense systems, of which they have plenty.

The USA hasn't even sent $20 Billion in toys to Ukraine yet. They spend $780 Billion each year on their defense. The West has simply dabbled in sending Ukraine what they need. Some of it is because of training backlogs, and other components of it is because of political will.

Let's not pretend for 5 seconds that the West is doing even close to all it could be doing for Ukraine. And let's also be very honest why. The West is happy to spend insignificant amounts of their GDP, to ensure a protracted conflict that bleeds Russia out and slowly chips away at their modern military assets, while cleaning out what the Soviet Union left them behind.. As long as the Ukrainians are willing to lose a couple hundred thousand soldiers along the way (and it appears they are), the West is happy to bleed the Bear out.

 

[Leftyhunter]

Hmmm, when was that? As far as I am aware the PRC is the world's #2 military power and has been probably since say 2015 - 17. It is quite feasible that it could overtake the US in first spot in a few years time, if not sooner.

The CCP/PRC PLAN (Peoples Liberation Navy) is larger than the USN and has more modern ships. That excludes the Peoples Maritime Militia, the Chinese Coast Guard, and other various militias. Russia has 20 times the amount of nukes than the PRC and the VMF sub fleet is probably the second most numerous in the world, after the North Korean sub fleet, and the probably the most advanced and well rounded. It has subs that the USN, RN, PLAN, & Marine Nationale dream about. The sub fleet has always been the Russian strongest military capability. Go have a look at H I Sutton's website Covert Shores and his YouTube channel. He is arguably one of the leading international authorities on submarines.

2022 Russia Military Strength).

2024 Ukraine Military Strength

Detailing the current military strength of Ukraine including air force, army, navy, financials and manpower.

www.globalfirepower.com

At least as of 2020. As for China Peter Zeihan makes the point that the vast majority of the Chinese Navy can' t extend itself more then 1k miles from Chinese shores and just two US or Indian naval destroyers could cut off Chinese oil imports from the Persian Gulf. Russia easily outnumbers the Ukraine in all catagories yet has done amazingly poorly. When Russia invaded the Ukraine on February 24th 2022 it was Russias war to loose yet that's what their doing.
We really don't know what China's military can or can not do. The last major land war involving the Chinese Army was in 1979 against Vietnam and the only recent naval action China has been involved in is as a member of a loose coalition of countries vs Somali fishermen who hijacked merchant ships after their fishing ground where destroyed by industrial pollutants being dumped mostly from Western Europe.
Leftyhunter

 

[ngatimozart]

2022 Russia Military Strength).
At least as of 2020. As for China Peter Zeihan makes the point that the vast majority of the Chinese Navy can' t extend itself more then 1k miles from Chinese shores and just two US or Indian naval destroyers could cut off Chinese oil imports from the Persian Gulf. Russia easily outnumbers the Ukraine in all catagories yet has done amazingly poorly. When Russia invaded the Ukraine on February 24th 2022 it was Russias war to loose yet that's what their doing.
We really don't know what China's military can or can not do. The last major land war involving the Chinese Army was in 1979 against Vietnam and the only recent naval action China has been involved in is as a member of a loose coalition of countries vs Somali fishermen who hijacked merchant ships after their fishing ground where destroyed by industrial pollutants being dumped mostly from Western Europe.
Leftyhunter

The source isn't the best around. The IISS, RUSI, or similar are a far better source.

When you cite some such as you have with Peter Zeihan, you have to provide the source. Please do so. This is a requirement of the rules.

 

[STURM]

The reality is that the West has provided very, very, very little support to Ukraine in the grand scheme of things.

The reality is that the West has provided a lot to the Ukraine and that aid has been decisive in enabling the Ukraine to achieve what it has; irrespective of whether much of it is obsolete or whether the West still has a lot it hasn't sent.

As long as the Ukrainians are willing to lose a couple hundred thousand soldiers along the way (and it appears they are), the West is happy to bleed the Bear out.

Goes without being said; the West gets to bleed and weaken Putin/Russia and prevents the Ukraine from being occupied. If we go further we can also say that a weak Russia has an impact on China; it weakens Syria and Iran and it ensures that countries which have/had a lot of trade with Russia; including arms purchases; are now looking at other options.

 

[STURM]

Russia easily outnumbers the Ukraine in all catagories yet has done amazingly poorly

You left out the part where the Ukraine had a fairly large standing army; a large pool of trained manpower it could call on and entered the war fully mobilised. Russia in contrast entered the war with a major manpower issue [some BMP had two dismounts]; an army which was told not to expect major resistance and an army ill prepared or equipped for a strategic invasion of this magnitude [a frontage of more than 1,000km and an initial advance on fours axes with insufficient resources and not mutually supportive].

We really don't know what China's military can or can not do.

Do we know what the West can really do? For the past few decades it has fought the likes of Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and Serbia. The U.S. on it's own has fought Iran, Panama and Grenada.

 

[IIO2]

The reality is that the West has provided a lot to the Ukraine and that aid has been decisive in enabling the Ukraine to achieve what it has; irrespective of whether much of it is obsolete or whether the West still has a lot it hasn't sent.



Goes without being said; the West gets to bleed and weaken Putin/Russia and prevents the Ukraine from being occupied. If we go further we can also say that a weak Russia has an impact on China; it weakens Syria and Iran and it ensures that countries which have/had a lot of trade with Russia; including arms purchases; are now looking at other options.

"A lot" is a relatively term. The reality I'm pointing out is that the West, especially the United States, has sent only a very small fraction of their military inventory to Ukraine and has really focused on clearing out their "old" stuff in the process. I think we all thought Russia would perform much, much, better in this conflict, but Ukrainian will, combined with a small bit of Western military support, has caused a great deal of trouble for the Russians.

I'm extremely curious to know what's actually happening in Kherson right now. Obviously, the rumors are swirling, so I'll wait until they die down and we get some actual info, but it does appear that some large number of Russians are stranded on the right bank of the Dnieper, under horrendous artillery fire from the advancing Ukrainians. As soon as I get some reputable sources regarding the outcome, I'll post them. Surely, Russia's trying to evacuate as much of their equipment across as possible. Meanwhile, Ukraine will be trying to cut off their retreat and force them to surrender, or worse...

 

[Ananda]

Russian forces have retreated from thousands of square kilometers of Ukranian territory so one side is doing better then the other hand it's not Russia. It's not the goal of the Ukranians to sieze Russian territory so no the Ukranians won't invade Moscow.

Do you understand "sarcasm' ? If not let's put this way. If only basing on Western sources, Ukraine forces now should in Sevastopol, and already kick Russian out from all Ukranian teritory.

So again talking on how the real Russian and Ukranian attrition rate of this war, base only to Western sources is pointless and moot. The actual attrition rate effect to each side still anyone guess.

Russian routed from Kharkiv oblast, no doubt about that. However both Russian and Luhansk Militia able to hold the line in Luhansk-Kharkiv border also still reality so far. So it is still anyone speculations whether they can hold the line in east bank of Dniper in Kherson oblast when they are moving out from west bank part of Kherson oblast.

Again this war still far from over, as any sides calculations of their opponents rate of attrition so far not as each side expectations.

 

[Feanor]

The M777 is not already almost 20 years old. The modern American howitzer is the M109A7, which the Americans are quickly procuring, while upgrading their M109A6's to the newest standard. The M777 served its role, but the Americans are moving on from it as quickly as they can produce more M109A7's. A 20 year old weapon is not modern by American Standards.

You're kidding right? For the M-109 you're going to count the variant as the time frame for something to be "modern" but for the M-777 it's the base platform? When did the M-777A1 and A2 go into service?

Last time I checked the M2 .50 cal is ~a century old but remains very much in active service with no plans to retire it. And it was provided to Ukraine...

As for Leopard tanks, there are hundreds in storage, around the world. Between 2A4, 2A5, and 2A6 variants, the West could cobble together 500 of them if they had the actual desire to defeat Russia. Germany has a couple hundred active and a couple hundred in storage. Spain has a couple hundred active, and more in storage. Norway, Poland, Portugal, Turkey, Greece, The Netherlands, Denmark, Austria, etc.... They all have them in storage and significant quantities could be cobbled together.

Where are these hundreds in storage? Please provide a source. To the best of my knowledge the Leo-2 storage stockpile has been mostly tapped out through foreign sales. I'm prepared to believe some are in storage, but Germany was down to 200 MBTs before deciding to upscale again to ~400. Those extra 200 came from storage as well.

The Americans have more than 1,100 Patriots. If they wanted them to be sent to Ukraine, they could make it happen. They could take them from a variety places where they are currently operational. Some of the assets that they are currently defending could easily receive other air defense systems instead. 50 is less than 5% of what they have.

50 battery and 1100 systems? Or are you claiming the US has 1100 batteries? Again, do you have a source for this? And just so I'm clear, you're suggesting the US strip them out of active units to send to Ukraine? What "other air defense systems" could they "easily receive" in replacement, to the tune of 50 batteries?

1000 Humvees with TOW's, 50. CAL and grenade launchers would be a drop in the bucket for the USA. They have more than 100,000 Humvees and they're replacing almost all of them with their Oshkosh JLTVs. The USA has already announced around 1000 of them to Ukraine in packages and the Ukrainians are putting them to good use. 1000 more would retrofit several more battalions of high mobility infantry and keep the pressure on the Russians to keep up in the deployment of assets... You create teams of them with TOW missiles and Javelin armed soldiers in the Turret mount, hunting Russian tanks and quality IFV's. A cheap and effective trade off for the Ukrainians.

Kind of my point. Ukraine has already received something to that tune. Hence why your wishlist doesn't make much sense. (Emphasis mine)

Of course the influx of Western weapons into Ukraine is hampered by the speed of training. You would, obviously, have to phase in this material over the course of months. You'd also have to set up additional training camps in Europe to selectively train Ukrainians how to use these weapons in mass quantities. It's highly doable, however. Europeans are already slated to train North of 25,000 Ukrainians outside of Ukraine in Q4 2022 and throughout 2023. Sending them back, gradually, with the above weapons / systems wouldn't be particularly hard.

What scale of training program? Who would run it? How many months and at what cost? You're suggesting a massive effort above and beyond what already exists for a plethora of additional systems, for which Ukraine doesn't have the logistics. And you're assuming this is easy.

Let's say the NATO / EU spends a collective $100-$125 Billion U.S dollars between tomorrow and the end of 2023. I'm talking the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Britain, South Korea, the entire EU and the Scandinavian countries that are about to join NATO. Do you think that's a high price to pay to effectively neuter the Russian Army for a generation and deeply hurt the Russian economy along the way? That's the best deal they're ever going to get, without putting their military personnel in harm's way.

Are they all ready to spend that? What would Russia's response be? Is South Korea even helping Ukraine militarily? I'm very skeptical that you have any idea what you're talking about, when you include the RoK in a list of countries you're counting on to send massive package of military aid to Ukraine several times greater then all current aid combined.

All it requires is the political desire to make it happen. If you follow the inventories and production capacity of the countries that form the alliance that is currently supplying Ukraine, you'd realize that the above list I posted is not far fetched, rather, a substantial logistical hurdle. The West has plenty enough equipment / production capacity to make Russia's life miserable, despite all the bellyaching about Western military inventories.

If your entire point is that the collective west can defeat Russia, then yes. But that doesn't make the list you provided reasonable or the correct way to go.

 

[STURM]

"A lot" is a relatively term.

If you insist I could give the numbers as provided by the press. By any definition of the word; the numbers of kit provided to the Ukraine by the West fits within the definition of ''a lot''.

The reality I'm pointing out is that the West, especially the United States, has sent only a very small fraction of their military inventory to Ukraine and has really focused on clearing out their "old" stuff in the process.

I think you've made that point pretty clear by now...

I think we all thought Russia would perform much, much, better in this conflict, but Ukrainian will, combined with a small bit of Western military support, has caused a great deal of trouble for the Russians.

We did indeed because we assumed that for the past few years that the Russians were preparing to fight a high intensity protracted war when in reality they were preparing for wars similar to Chechnya, Georgia and Syria; we didn't factor in that Russia had manpower issues or entered the war totally unprepared because of flawed assumptions on the part of the political leadership and we overlooked the fact that the Russian air force traditionally does not do strategic air campaigns.

I'm extremely curious to know what's actually happening in Kherson right now.

My guess is what many think; the Russians preserving their assets/strength and buying time until the situation is more favourable to them; whilst trying to cause as much damage to the Ukrainians as possible. What else can the Russians do - the Ukrainians hold the initiative. Whether this whole withdrawal from Kherson thing is a giant maskirovka; I have no idea.

 

[Ananda]

reality is that the West has provided very, very, very little support to Ukraine in the grand scheme of things. They've sent a handful of howitzers.

Really ? Are you even calculate how much ex warsaw pact asset from East Euro Nato members being send ? How much money being send to support Ukranian supplies ? Yes they are not sending much (yet) on Western made inventories. However check how much ex warsaw pact inventories that still in the hand of East Euro Nato members (that has not been send to Ukraine).

Without West support, Ukraine already collapse. So saying West support to Ukraine is very very small, is avoiding realities. This is afterall allready Proxy Atrition War between West and Russia.

 

[IIO2]

Really ? Are you even calculate how much ex warsaw pact asset from East Euro Nato members being send ? How much money being send to support Ukranian supplies ? Yes they are not sending much (yet) on Western made inventories. However check how much ex warsaw pact inventories that still in the hand of East Euro Nato members (that has not been send to Ukraine).

Without West support, Ukraine already collapse. So saying West support to Ukraine is very very small, is avoiding realities. This is afterall allready Proxy Atrition War between West and Russia.

Size / amount is relative. The West has sent very small amounts of money to Ukraine relative to their collective GDP's and they've sent very small amounts of largely cheap, and obsolete, Soviet made equipment to Ukraine.

The West is not sending anything of high value to Ukraine, nor are they sending anything of significant technological superiority. They can afford to send a lot more, produce a lot more and test their toys on the Russians a lot more. They've sent a tiny fraction of their collective inventories and the Canada's, France's, Germany's Britain's and Italy's of the world have sent tiny fractions of their GDP's worth of military aid. Even the USA has only sent roughly $20 Billion in military aid to Ukraine, to fight their generational enemy. That's 2.5% of ONE year's military budget ($780 Billion). 2.5 percent... Think about how small that is compared to the damage that has been inflicted on the Russian military.

 

[STURM]

The West is not sending anything of high value to Ukraine, nor are they sending anything of significant technological superiority.

Maybe it's subjective but to most people kit such as NLAW and Javelin would fall within the definition of ''high value'' and irrespective of whether it's ''high value' or not is immaterial as long as it has utility and can be put to good use by the Ukrainians.

 

[Vivendi]

Norway to contribute 1.5 billion NOK (146 million Euro) to UK led Ukranian defence fund, this year. This is in addition to 400 million NOK (39 million Euro) contributed to this fund earlier this year. This is all part of a 3 billion NOK package that was announced earlier this year. Norway to contribute approximately NOK 1,5 billion to British-led Ukraine fund - regjeringen.no

Planned Norwegian contributions to Ukraine and neighboring countries for 2022 and 2023 (both equipment and financials; both military and civilian) total 13.8 billion NOK (1.34 billion Euro). Norwegian support to Ukraine and neighbouring countries - regjeringen.no

The Netherlands is contributing 100 million Euros (I believe this is the same fund as mentioned above): The Netherlands to contribute 100 million euros to military fund for Ukraine | News item | Defensie.nl

UK provides 1000 "surface to air" missiles, 5,000 set of extreme cold weather clothing, 20,000 sleeping bags and 150 insulated tents: UK to provide 1,000 more surface to air missiles to Ukraine - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Sweden's new government said end of October wthat Sweden will increase the military assistance to Ukraine, prioritizing "the more advanced equipment requested by Ukraine": Sweden to finally send advanced weapons to Ukraine

It seems many Western countries are still actively supporting Ukraine, and plan to do so at least for 2023.

 

[Ananda]

The West has spent very small amounts of money to Ukraine relative to their collective GDP's and they've spent very small amounts of largely cheap, and obsolete, Soviet made equipment to Ukraine.

Do you think sending and preparing for them is not taking cost ? Are you already calculating the amount of Money US and West Euro has to give to compensate East Euro for them sending those Warsaw Pact assets. Those assets being given to Ukraine by East Euro after they also got compesate by US and West Euro.

Don't forget this proxy war basically being fought in two front. One in Ukraine the other in Commercial war in the overall global market including Russian and Western ones. The second one I'm not going to discuss in here, as it is already discussed in other thread of Russia and West.

Think about how small that is compared to the damage that has been inflicted on the Russian military.

That's about it, you only calculating some portion of the West costs in this war. Not all. Definitely you don't calculated how much West (especially US and West Euro) has to prep up East Euro, either directly and indirectly due to Ukranian War. Any destruction on Ukrainian infrastructure also need to be prep up by US and Collective West, in order to make Ukraine still able to run as country. Let alone the money to be send to Ukraine to support their operational budget. Again without West, Ukraine already collapsing. So don't say that Western support is small on the overall calculation. Western support is everything that still make Ukraine standing.

 

[IIO2]

Maybe it's subjective but to most people kit such as NLAW and Javelin would fall within the definition of ''high value'' and irrespective of whether it's ''high value' or not is immaterial as long as it has utility and can be put to good use by the Ukrainians.

The Javelin is 1990's tech, only particularly useful because it's being deployed for it's true purpose... The destruction of largely inferior / older Russian / Soviet technology.

 

[IIO2]

Norway to contribute 1.5 billion NOK (146 million Euro) to UK led Ukranian defence fund, this year. This is in addition to 400 million NOK (39 million Euro) contributed to this fund earlier this year. This is all part of a 3 billion NOK package that was announced earlier this year. Norway to contribute approximately NOK 1,5 billion to British-led Ukraine fund - regjeringen.no

Planned Norwegian contributions to Ukraine and neighboring countries for 2022 and 2023 (both equipment and financials; both military and civilian) total 13.8 billion NOK (1.34 billion Euro). Norwegian support to Ukraine and neighbouring countries - regjeringen.no

The Netherlands is contributing 100 million Euros (I believe this is the same fund as mentioned above): The Netherlands to contribute 100 million euros to military fund for Ukraine | News item | Defensie.nl

UK provides 1000 "surface to air" missiles, 5,000 set of extreme cold weather clothing, 20,000 sleeping bags and 150 insulated tents: UK to provide 1,000 more surface to air missiles to Ukraine - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Sweden's new government said end of October wthat Sweden will increase the military assistance to Ukraine, prioritizing "the more advanced equipment requested by Ukraine": Sweden to finally send advanced weapons to Ukraine

It seems many Western countries are still actively supporting Ukraine, and plan to do so at least for 2023.

Would be great to see the Swedes test out their Archer, 155mm Howitzers against the Russians. I've heard people rave about them. I'd love to see them in action. Sending 6-8 of them to Ukraine, to get their feet wet, would be awesome.

 

[STURM]

The Javelin is 1990's tech, only particularly useful because it's being deployed for it's true purpose...
.

So? Irrespective of whether it's 1990's tech or was designed during the first Viking raids on the British isles or from the time Rommel took Tobruk; it does it's job and the Ukrainians are happy with it. It's the one of the best in it's category; it's the main short to medium range ATGW of the U.S. amd various other countries and it's not as if the U.S. is dusting off cobwebs from Dragons it stored in the wilds of Montana in 1984 to be sent to the Ukraine.

Sending 6-8 of them to Ukraine, to get their feet wet, would be awesome.

The pertinent question is would the Ukrainians agree? They already have M-109s, Panzerhaubitze 2000s; Krabs, Caesars, Zuzanas, M-777s, FH-70s and Light Guns on top of the the Soviet ear stuff they've long had. Will adding Archer to the mix add any value for the Ukrainians?

 

[Vivendi]

That's about it, you only calculating some portion of the West costs in this war. Not all. Definitely you don't calculated how much West (especially US and West Euro) has to prep up East Euro, either directly and indirectly due to Ukranian War. Any destruction on Ukrainian infrastructure also need to be prep up by US and Collective West, in order to make Ukraine still able to run as country. Let alone the money to be send to Ukraine to support their operational budget. Again without West, Ukraine already collapsing. So don't say that Western support is small on the overall calculation. Western support is everything that still make Ukraine standing.

True, but it's also true that the combined US/EU/UK economies are much larger than Russia's, and can therefore absorb more than Russia's much smaller economy. Also, apart from a few volunteers, "the West" has so far paid bills and donated equipment -- it's Russian and Ukranian soldiers that are dying.

As I pointed out above, many countries are still supporting Ukraine. Don't expect that to change any time soon. The weather is still quite warm, and it seems less and less likely that Europe will run out of gas this winter. Things are looking very grim for Russia.

Hopefully the US will agree to supply ATACMS soon -- Ukraine really needs it, ASAP. Together with more air defence systems. Those NASAMS and IRIST-T system cannot get there soon enough.

Edit: South Korea will manufacture 100,000 155mm artillery shells that will be shipped to Ukraine. The Kyiv Independent on Twitter: "" / Twitter

 

[Vivendi]

The pertinent question is would the Ukrainians agree? They already have M-109s, Panzerhaubitze 2000s; Krabs, Caesars, Zuzanas, M-777s, FH-70s and Light Guns on top of the the Soviet ear stuff they've long had. Will adding Archer to the mix add any value for the Ukrainians?

The Swedes say they will prioritize what Ukraine is asking for. So if Sweden delivers Archers then it's because Ukraine is asking for it. If they deliver something else, then probably Ukraine did not have Archer on top of their list. Those Archers are new and quite expensive, and Sweden has a limited number so I doubt Sweden will hand them out like candy.