The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[swerve]

Wouldn't they operate from Cyprus? Surely a 2-3 hour CAP is possible with a tanker? Wouldn't the Ark Royal have been useless in this scenario? No air to air and all that.

Why Cyprus? There are Italian & Greek (i.e. NATO & EU) military air bases half as far away, in Sicily & Cyprus, & the Maltese might let us fly out of their even closer (but non-NATO & not military) airports if we ask them nicely.

The Harrier GR9s wouldn't have been useless, but would have been very limited. They'd have had to be vectored in by ship-based radars or AEW aircraft, either land based or from the carriers.

 

[Padfoot]

Why Cyprus? There are Italian & Greek (i.e. NATO & EU) military air bases half as far away, in Sicily & Cyprus, & the Maltese might let us fly out of their even closer (but non-NATO & not military) airports if we ask them nicely.

The Harrier GR9s wouldn't have been useless, but would have been very limited. They'd have had to be vectored in by ship-based radars or AEW aircraft, either land based or from the carriers.

Thank you for that.

So it's unlikely that the Ark Royal would have been sent even if it was still in service, especially given that much more capable aircraft can operate from allied bases? It also sounds like it would have been somewhat of a burden.

It's just that Sky News keep banging on about the carriers incessantly, and it seems that none of their experts seem to have a clue.

 

[swerve]

Sky news? Experts? Isn't that contradictory?

 

[StingrayOZ]

Then it hit me, he's making noises, with the hopes (One assumes) the US will bring a carrier along.

I don't see why the US will be compelled to send that kind of asset. This is one they should proberly sit out. The US is commited all over the place, this is on europes door step. Heck half a dozen european powers have had issues with Gadafi before.. some of them armed him.

Its not like Iran or China or NK are going to give the US the ok to free up resources to go fight else where.

Italy, Spain and france have carriers, europe has god knows how many planes rusting away doing nothing important at the moment. US has more to do than park a carrier in the med to save europe some $'s.

 

[riksavage]

I don't see why the US will be compelled to send that kind of asset. This is one they should proberly sit out. The US is commited all over the place, this is on europes door step. Heck half a dozen european powers have had issues with Gadafi before.. some of them armed him.

Its not like Iran or China or NK are going to give the US the ok to free up resources to go fight else where.

Italy, Spain and france have carriers, europe has god knows how many planes rusting away doing nothing important at the moment. US has more to do than park a carrier in the med to save europe some $'s.

Couldn't agree more, you have France, Italy and Spain all with ports facing onto the Mediterranean. Where's CdG, Cavour and Principe de Asturias? Italy in particular has a vested interest in stopping Libya turning into a basket case, they will be one of the first inundated with refugees.

 

[riksavage]

I don't see why the US will be compelled to send that kind of asset. This is one they should proberly sit out. The US is commited all over the place, this is on europes door step. Heck half a dozen european powers have had issues with Gadafi before.. some of them armed him.

Its not like Iran or China or NK are going to give the US the ok to free up resources to go fight else where.

Italy, Spain and france have carriers, europe has god knows how many planes rusting away doing nothing important at the moment. US has more to do than park a carrier in the med to save europe some $'s.

Couldn't agree more, you have France, Italy and Spain all with ports facing onto the Mediterranean. Where's CdG, Cavour and Principe de Asturias? Italy in particular has a vested interest in stopping Libya turning into a basket case, they will be one of the first inundated with refugees.

 

[Blas de Lezo]

Couldn't agree more, you have France, Italy and Spain all with ports facing onto the Mediterranean. Where's CdG, Cavour and Principe de Asturias? Italy in particular has a vested interest in stopping Libya turning into a basket case, they will be one of the first inundated with refugees.

Without any other consideration, I can only answer about PDA, (NRF 17) was assembled at Cartagena last week and set sail on Sunday. Nato´s training exercise.
http://www.manw.nato.int/pdf/Noble%20Mariner%202011/NOMR%2011%20PRESSKIT%20FEB%2011updated17Feb11.pdf

 

[WillS]

Agreed. It seems to me that if true, it's a trial balloon floated for the future, in the hope that the financial climate will improve by the time any money would have to be found.

ATR-72 MP/ASW has similar capacity to CN-295 & already has some British sensors integrated, including Seaspray 7500E, the big brother of the Seaspray 7000E the RN will operate on its AW159s. Another candidate, if anything ever happens.

I'm playing catchup here but I see that another defence site, albeit one that spells it 'defense' tut tut ;-) , is also catching up on the Nimrod replacement story (Rapid Fire: 2011-03-02 - 3rd bullet point).

I'm going to stick my neck out here and pour cold water on the UAV suggestions for this role. One of the problems the MoD currently face is the PFI contract for military sat comms. The satellites aren't owned by the MoD, which saved them the up front costs but on the downside they have to pay for bandwidth on an "as you use it" basis.

As UAVs are reliant on satellite comms, this would introduce another significant operational cost - one which countries that own their military satellites (like we used to) don't face. That, combined with the belief that "real" eyes on station can give you better awareness and desire to preserve available bandwidth for current hot operations (even if money where no object, there's only so much bandwidth available) might tip it in favour of a small manned platform.

Of course the political storm thrown up by such a purchase will be interesting to watch, from a distance. Try explaining to our wonderful cadre of so-called defence correspondents that the estimated operational costs of Nimrod mean that buying an off the shelf replacement is a good idea.

WillS

 

[Blas de Lezo]

Very worrying noises about the state of the UK nuclear fleet, I haven´t got a formed opinion on the matter because I do not understand why the government has declassified this docs, did they have to?. I would very much appreciate the opinion of the eminent posters on this matter.
What does the goverment try to achieve with this? I am puzzled, maybe gather public support for a fleet reduction?

Press
Flaws in nuclear submarine reactors could be fatal, secret report warns | World news | guardian.co.uk

Docs

http://robedwards.typepad.com/files/declassified-report-to-mod-defence-board.pdf

 

[StobieWan]

Very worrying noises about the state of the UK nuclear fleet, I haven´t got a formed opinion on the matter because I do not understand why the government has declassified this docs, did they have to?. I would very much appreciate the opinion of the eminent posters on this matter.
What does the goverment try to achieve with this? I am puzzled, maybe gather public support for a fleet reduction?

Press
Flaws in nuclear submarine reactors could be fatal, secret report warns | World news | guardian.co.uk

Docs

http://robedwards.typepad.com/files/declassified-report-to-mod-defence-board.pdf

The Government has release the documents in response to a Freedom of Information request from the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. You may well wish to infer that the SCND have an agenda in obtaining the report.

 

[1805]

This libyan situation is turning into a disaster. Talk about over engineering this no fly zone stuff, just put a few T42 off the coast near the rebels and advise that anything flying will be shot down. OK its not 100% but its 80 mile range is something. If the West lets that nutter regain control they are stupied.

 

[riksavage]

This libyan situation is turning into a disaster. Talk about over engineering this no fly zone stuff, just put a few T42 off the coast near the rebels and advise that anything flying will be shot down. OK its not 100% but its 80 mile range is something. If the West lets that nutter regain control they are stupied.

Send Daring, she needs blooding, and 1 x French and 1 x Italian Horizon.

They had better hurry up, the rebels are getting a kicking and we are slowly reaching tipping point. Gaddafi will reap his revenge on not just the rebels, Benghazi GP, but also foreign O&G companies - good-by BP & Total, hello CNOC & SINOPEC

 

[StobieWan]

This libyan situation is turning into a disaster. Talk about over engineering this no fly zone stuff, just put a few T42 off the coast near the rebels and advise that anything flying will be shot down. OK its not 100% but its 80 mile range is something. If the West lets that nutter regain control they are stupied.

You need to visually ID a target before you engage it- or we're going to end up shooting down a civilian airliner at some point.

Any no fly zone needs aircraft to enforce it.

Ian

 

[kato]

Send Daring, she needs blooding, and 1 x French and 1 x Italian Horizon.

If there's a no-fly zone, Forbin will be involved. She's the AAW escort for CdG.

OK its not 100% but its 80 mile range is something.

Pretty easy to fly with impunity under that radar horizon...

 

[1805]

You need to visually ID a target before you engage it- or we're going to end up shooting down a civilian airliner at some point.

Any no fly zone needs aircraft to enforce it.

Ian

I agree in an ideal world but if its, we can't provide a full no fly zone therefore we can't do anything at all, I don't. The UK could take a lead hear even an old T42 is a real danger to anything flying near the coast. WUK imposed the TEZ in the Falklands I doubt it had the capability to police is all at first.

We should be sending the T42 and if a T45 could be got to operational status included, so the options are available. This can only help the RN's case, it is vital they politicans can see them as a problem solver

This is a nasty bit of work who if he regains control will be even more hostile to the West and murderous to any opposition.

Once you shoot down the first jet/helicopter the rest will lose interest in pressing home attacks.

 

[1805]

If there's a no-fly zone, Forbin will be involved. She's the AAW escort for CdG.


Pretty easy to fly with impunity under that radar horizon...

Agreed not perfect but it could be done now and removes a lot of airspace, a no fly zone might be to late. The lesson from the Balkans was the need for early action.

 

[swerve]

I suppose a passing attempt at a CAP could be flown from Malta with tanker support and Typhoon but we're talking 800 Nm round trip just to the edges of the coast?

Ian

From Malta? Half that distance to Tripoli. 221 statute (not nautical) miles, 355 km.

Benghazi is closer to Crete: 327 miles/526 km from Souda air base.

Cover of Ras Lanuf/Brega etc is more difficult - 454 miles/727 km to Marsa Brega airport from Souda, 538 miles/861 km from Catania (near Sigonella air base), 461 miles/738 km from Malta.

 

[Hambo]

Personally I would keep well away from getting involved, another protracted and expensive conflict is the last thing we need with pledges of billions of £'s for rebuilding and supporting democracy or whatever they call it.

If the UN want to organise something from the arab world then let them get on with it, rather than Cameron playing statesman a few months after he took the axe to our forces.

Will a no fly zone work? Im not sure Gaddafi's airforce has been that effective as yet, and it doesnt stop bands of armed men driving around killing civilians. Start flying NATO planes overhead or sailing NATO warships off the coast and you might start seeing some more anti west sentiment and every single Jihadist, mercenary and nutter pour into Libya making the situation a whole lot worse.
If the no fly zone leads to stalemate and Gaddafi and his supporters still control Tripoli? Then what? Do you supply the rebels for an even more bloody civil war. If the pattern goes on you will be seeing suicide bombings in civilian and rebel targets from the rent-a -martyr mob, we could make it worse.

The next step would be a no drive zone for military vehicles, but that might not work either, just more cash and eventually "boots on the ground".

Where do we stop, shall we drive south into the other broken countries and stop civil wars where 100,000s of innocent civilians die of starvation? Shall we disarm Iran or N.Korea?

Our politicians have been busy signing trade deals with Gaddafi and now have been made to look a bit silly. What are the political views of the "rebels" anyway? Are they fluffy democratic types or would we not like the in ten years either? Let it run the course and see what happens.

 

[riksavage]

Interesting article articulating the huge leap of Watchkeeper over the current Hermes 450. I assumed they were basically the same all but in name - clearly not the case.

Articles

The system should be operational this year, and several comments caused me to question whether they could be deployed from a QE class. Advantages as follows:

Comes with first in class fully automated landing and take-off system using radar guidance,

Two controllers can fly three Watchkeepers simultaneously

Information can be simultaneously downloaded in real time to a myriad of users (ship and shore deployed assets)

All weather ability

Small footprint of GCS.

Considering the limited numbers of fixed wing available for QE deployments (typically 12-24 F35C) would it not then be possible to take up the spare hanger space with deployed Watchkeeper units to provide ISTAR support for littoral operations?

Imagine using Watchkeeper in the Gulf to monitor Piracy, the long loiter times and double sensor payload would allow for 24-7 all weather coverage using as little as three airframes.

It seems to me a no brainer, the only question marks being runway distance (is the QE deck long enough), the airframes ability to withstand heavy landings and saltwater corrosion. A portable containerised GCS could be positioned in the aircraft hanger. For transportation the wing is detachable allowing for a small hanger footprint.

Bringing Watchkeeper to sea would compliment the ISTAR capabilities of Wildcat advanced AESA surveillance radar and Longbow Apache (both planned for deployment aboard the QE/PW) in support of 3 Commando operations. Assuming the F35C will be focused on CAP/CAS, Watchkeeper could be used to reccon beachheads and helo landing zones.

The UK MOD is cash-strapped, instead of looking at a dedicated maritime UAV, why not look at deploying something they already have in the tool box. Watchkeeper was designed to be more robust than Hermes, hopefully strong enough to allow for maritime use, leave Reaper to the RAF and make Watchkeeper an Army/RM asset.

 

[swerve]

Watchkeeper is already an army asset (Royal Artillery), & nothing to do with the RAF. What you're proposing is making it also a navy asset.