The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Troothsayer]

A few new pics of the QE, sections of lower block 3 moved for the first time
HMS Queen Elizabeth Steps Out Into The Lime Light - BAE Systems

http://www.defpro.com/data/gfx/news/0bb3b7df9b7d9cc0843d407cd98d980311b92ee2_big.jpg

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Pictures/web/a/k/b/BulbousBowConnected_1_.jpg


More news on the Merlins to the FAA Saga, not looking good if you believe this report.
Cornwall News | An elite Westcountry-based helicopter force which has played a vital role in Afghanistan could be in jeopardy under plans to make further scything cuts to the defence budget.

 

[1805]

A few new pics of the QE, sections of lower block 3 moved for the first time
HMS Queen Elizabeth Steps Out Into The Lime Light - BAE Systems

http://www.defpro.com/data/gfx/news/0bb3b7df9b7d9cc0843d407cd98d980311b92ee2_big.jpg

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Pictures/web/a/k/b/BulbousBowConnected_1_.jpg


More news on the Merlins to the FAA Saga, not looking good if you believe this report.
Cornwall News | An elite Westcountry-based helicopter force which has played a vital role in Afghanistan could be in jeopardy under plans to make further scything cuts to the defence budget.

Not good news, the RN just seems to be losing out, it needs to have a plan to sell its vital role more effectively. I don't see why the RAF have to operate any helicopters? The RN should build a much closer bond with the AAC, they need to be joined at the hip!

 

[swerve]

That might be 106 plus mission specialists perhaps? Really depends on what modularity they're including and how the crew is detailed off in that mix. Maybe 106 is base complement for just running the ship? I'm guessing, they may just be planning on flogging everyone on board til they bleed to make it work..


Ian

Could be not including aviation crew.

 

[overlander]

sad day for invincible.........after all it only saved the falklands.......


MoD News - Invincible Sold For Scrap

What you can expect from a government that is scrapping the R.N. I think they will be remembered for a long time and not for good things, at least in defence matters,, sad very sad, It was a a good oportunity to preserve it as a museum but this is not possible for these politicians only interested to cut as much as possible.

 

[Hambo]

What you can expect from a government that is scrapping the R.N. I think they will be remembered for a long time and not for good things, at least in defence matters,, sad very sad, It was a a good oportunity to preserve it as a museum but this is not possible for these politicians only interested to cut as much as possible.

Change the record overlander, I know you don't like to admit but the RN is far from being scrapped. In case you hadn't noticed a ship 3 times the size of invincible is being built with work on a second due to start in april. Add a sensible switch to F35C , type 45 and astute and the future of the RN isn't as gloomy as you keep repeating....over and over.

 

[overlander]

Change the record overlander, I know you don't like to admit but the RN is far from being scrapped. In case you hadn't noticed a ship 3 times the size of invincible is being built with work on a second due to start in april. Add a sensible switch to F35C , type 45 and astute and the future of the RN isn't as gloomy as you keep repeating....over and over.

Richard Beedall is much more realistic than people like you.

 

[gf0012-aust]

All

Lets play nice.....

stay on topic not on each other....

 

[1805]

From the warships forum, new link on the Type 26 with some slightly firmer details on the ship.

Global Combat Ship - BAE Systems

Diesel/Electric propulsion, decent sized hangar and mission bay for boats or USW's, plus a multirole concept for fitout.

Might be the basis for a decent Frigate, ya never know.

Ian

Actually looking again at this link, I wonder what the AA version of the design would look like cost, would this be like the AA version of FREMM. If it had Sampson/Aster 30 or ever Standard would this come out near the cost of F100? I still favour 10-12 heavy AA/ASW frigates/AWD plus 20-24 OPV/F2000 light frigates. I can't see the point of building all your frigates to take a Merlin then spending all their lives with a Lynx.

 

[riksavage]

A few new pics of the QE, sections of lower block 3 moved for the first time
HMS Queen Elizabeth Steps Out Into The Lime Light - BAE Systems

http://www.defpro.com/data/gfx/news/0bb3b7df9b7d9cc0843d407cd98d980311b92ee2_big.jpg

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Pictures/web/a/k/b/BulbousBowConnected_1_.jpg


More news on the Merlins to the FAA Saga, not looking good if you believe this report.
Cornwall News | An elite Westcountry-based helicopter force which has played a vital role in Afghanistan could be in jeopardy under plans to make further scything cuts to the defence budget.

Unsubstantiated article. I read an article in the National Enquirer that a Lancaster bomber had been found on the moon :daz

The RAF are culling 100 out of 400 pilots currently in training, not just fast-air, but helo pilots as well, following the decision to bin Harrier. No mention of FAA or CHF manning reductions.

The original knee jerk plan by labour was to buy 12 Chinook, these would not have been ready for deployment to A-Stan until 2016, by which time the UK deployment would be drawing down. The UK already operates the largest Chinook fleet outside the US, all of which are currently being upgraded to H4 & 5 standard (Thales glass cockpits). The H5 having larger fuel tanks for SF usage. The UK also operates the largest Merlin force in NATO (eight newer airframes being recently transferred from a friendly NATO partner).

The plan is to transfer RAF Merlin over to the RN, which means they will be the sole operator, the Merlin's replacing the SeaKings. This move will reduce the logistics burden and save money with a single service managing and crewing Merlin. Plus the Merlin is a step-change over the SeaKing with regard to operational versatility.

The changes will leave:

The RAF operating Chinook and Puma (upgraded). This will have to do until a Puma replacement is found.

The RN operating Merlin and Wildcat

The Army Air Corp operating Apache and Wildcat

This means heavy, medium, recce/liaison and attack platforms are catered for across all three services. JHF Wildcat will have a new grey camo common to both ACC and Navy allowing them to be switched and adapted to role.

People need to get over the Ark and Invincible, they where old, expensive to run (fuel prices continue to rise) and if we need to save money to get a QE, then so be it. Once Harrier went there was absolutely zero reason to keep them (retaining GR4's over Harrier was the right move IMHO). I'd rather see them go now than see money wasted keeping them as sham assets confined to port (like HMAS Kanimbla & HMAS Manoora if you believe the Australian). Decommissioned ships either end up as scrap, sold off or used as submarine targets. With Victory, Warrior and Belfast the UK already has enough floating maritime museums. Personally I would have liked to have seen her stripped and used as a target for an Astute or T class, ending up as a divers paradise off Scapa Flow.

 

[1805]

Unsubstantiated article. I read an article in the National Enquirer that a Lancaster bomber had been found on the moon :daz

The RAF are culling 100 out of 400 pilots currently in training, not just fast-air, but helo pilots as well, following the decision to bin Harrier. No mention of FAA or CHF manning reductions.

The original knee jerk plan by labour was to buy 12 Chinook, these would not have been ready for deployment to A-Stan until 2016, by which time the UK deployment would be drawing down. The UK already operates the largest Chinook fleet outside the US, all of which are currently being upgraded to H4 & 5 standard (Thales glass cockpits). The H5 having larger fuel tanks for SF usage. The UK also operates the largest Merlin force in NATO (eight newer airframes being recently transferred from a friendly NATO partner).

The plan is to transfer RAF Merlin over to the RN, which means they will be the sole operator, the Merlin's replacing the SeaKings. This move will reduce the logistics burden and save money with a single service managing and crewing Merlin. Plus the Merlin is a step-change over the SeaKing with regard to operational versatility.

The changes will leave:

The RAF operating Chinook and Puma (upgraded). This will have to do until a Puma replacement is found.

The RN operating Merlin and Wildcat

The Army Air Corp operating Apache and Wildcat

This means heavy, medium, recce/liaison and attack platforms are catered for across all three services. JHF Wildcat will have a new grey camo common to both ACC and Navy allowing them to be switched and adapted to role.

People need to get over the Ark and Invincible, they where old, expensive to run (fuel prices continue to rise) and if we need to save money to get a QE, then so be it. Once Harrier went there was absolutely zero reason to keep them (retaining GR4's over Harrier was the right move IMHO). I'd rather see them go now than see money wasted keeping them as sham assets confined to port (like HMAS Kanimbla & HMAS Manoora if you believe the Australian). Decommissioned ships either end up as scrap, sold off or used as submarine targets. With Victory, Warrior and Belfast the UK already has enough floating maritime museums. Personally I would have liked to have seen her stripped and used as a target for an Astute or T class, ending up as a divers paradise off Scapa Flow.

I think Invincible would have been a great attraction which could have covered it £2m cost been good for Portsmouth and helped the RN/naval aviation raise its profile.

I wonder will the Puma be replaced once we are out of Afghanistan, if so should the Chinooks be AAC or even RN assets. This could play well for the RN if it gets the Merlin's; the RN needs to be much smarter in how it markets itself, it should focus on far more joint army/AAC cooperation. The army/AAC need to be on as many warships as possible as much as possible.

I once made a post saying I hand never seen LPD/LSD lnding Challengers, and someone corrected me with a link. I didn't comment at the time but when I looked at the link it said it was the first time in c5years the ship had do this.

I did think the RN should contact as many local councils of coastal towns and offer a mobile royal tournament/summer tourist event, a LPD/LSD with AAC flighing over head, land a Challenger/Warrior/Viking and RNR/TA. Ferry tourist back to the ship for a small fee for charity etc.

 

[riksavage]

I think Invincible would have been a great attraction which could have covered it £2m cost been good for Portsmouth and helped the RN/naval aviation raise its profile.

I wonder will the Puma be replaced once we are out of Afghanistan, if so should the Chinooks be AAC or even RN assets. This could play well for the RN if it gets the Merlin's; the RN needs to be much smarter in how it markets itself, it should focus on far more joint army/AAC cooperation. The army/AAC need to be on as many warships as possible as much as possible.

I once made a post saying I hand never seen LPD/LSD lnding Challengers, and someone corrected me with a link. I didn't comment at the time but when I looked at the link it said it was the first time in c5years the ship had do this.

I did think the RN should contact as many local councils of coastal towns and offer a mobile royal tournament/summer tourist event, a LPD/LSD with AAC flighing over head, land a Challenger/Warrior/Viking and RNR/TA. Ferry tourist back to the ship for a small fee for charity etc.

Puma is an interesting one - upgrade or replace? If I was leading the charge I would opt for increased numbers of Merlin/Chinook as Puma is withdrawn. All the training and servicing infrastructure is already in place, reduce the JHF to just four airframes -Chinook, Merlin, Wildcat and Apache. All can be built/upgraded in the UK under licence.

All 4 airfames are already tried and tested at sea (already operate off Ocean. Lynx basically same footprint as Wildcat), so ramping up an operational hybrid strike/LHP platform shouldn't be a major issue assuming Oceans aviation/deck crews transfer to first operational QE and the UK keeps enough fixed wing pilots on exchange in the US.

Due to the delay in fixed wing availability, there's plenty of time for JHF to become experts in operating off and stowing aboard the first QE before the next leap of faith - fixed wing operations with the F35C. A single QE in the LHP role escorted by a mix of T45/23 should be able to carry at least 6 x Apache (CAS), 6 x Wildcat (Recce) and all of the required Merlin airframes to lift the active Commando++

JHF is fully purple, so why not divide the airframes according to type - hence all Merlin go to the RN, all Chinook to RAF, with Wildcat split according to role between AAC and RN.

 

[1805]

Puma is an interesting one - upgrade or replace? If I was leading the charge I would opt for increased numbers of Merlin/Chinook as Puma is withdrawn. All the training and servicing infrastructure is already in place, reduce the JHF to just four airframes -Chinook, Merlin, Wildcat and Apache. All can be built/upgraded in the UK under licence.

All 4 airfames are already tried and tested at sea (already operate off Ocean. Lynx basically same footprint as Wildcat), so ramping up an operational hybrid strike/LHP platform shouldn't be a major issue assuming Oceans aviation/deck crews transfer to first operational QE and the UK keeps enough fixed wing pilots on exchange in the US.

Due to the delay in fixed wing availability, there's plenty of time for JHF to become experts in operating off and stowing aboard the first QE before the next leap of faith - fixed wing operations with the F35C. A single QE in the LHP role escorted by a mix of T45/23 should be able to carry at least 6 x Apache (CAS), 6 x Wildcat (Recce) and all of the required Merlin airframes to lift the active Commando++

JHF is fully purple, so why not divide the airframes according to type - hence all Merlin go to the RN, all Chinook to RAF, with Wildcat split according to role between AAC and RN.

It would make sense to buy more Merlins than Chinooks if the Puma's do go, also it will create employment/capacity which should be a key objective for MOD. But then surely it would make more sense for the RAF to exit helicopters altogether. The Chinooks could then go RN/AAC joint unit. This logic would support the RAF being keen to retain Merlin; unlike the RN the RAF are generally better at thinking ahead at the political impact of change. The RAF may just want to finish the FAA off completely to guarantee no challenge to ownership of F35, if they ever turn up.

The Ocean should never set sail without Apache/AAC personel aboard.

 

[StobieWan]

Actually looking again at this link, I wonder what the AA version of the design would look like cost, would this be like the AA version of FREMM. If it had Sampson/Aster 30 or ever Standard would this come out near the cost of F100?.

It'd end up near the cost of a T45 if you put Sampson and A30 on it I suspect. The Italian FREMM has a much lower cost radar fitted to it from memory.



Ian

 

[Troothsayer]

The original knee jerk plan by labour was to buy 12 Chinook, these would not have been ready for deployment to A-Stan until 2016, by which time the UK deployment would be drawing down. The UK already operates the largest Chinook fleet outside the US, all of which are currently being upgraded to H4 & 5 standard (Thales glass cockpits).

The continued purchase of the Chinooks is very strange considering their ISD. Hopefully if cash needs to be found in the next planning round this is the first casualty.

The plan is to transfer RAF Merlin over to the RN, which means they will be the sole operator, the Merlin's replacing the SeaKings. This move will reduce the logistics burden and save money with a single service managing and crewing Merlin. Plus the Merlin is a step-change over the SeaKing with regard to operational versatility.

The changes will leave:

The RAF operating Chinook and Puma (upgraded). This will have to do until a Puma replacement is found.

The RN operating Merlin and Wildcat

The Army Air Corp operating Apache and Wildcat

This is what I thought, however RAF types keep making noises to the opposite effect.

 

[riksavage]

The continued purchase of the Chinooks is very strange considering their ISD. Hopefully if cash needs to be found in the next planning round this is the first casualty.



This is what I thought, however RAF types keep making noises to the opposite effect.

If you believe the press (Torygraph), the FAA are not being cut as a result of Harriers demise, which lends me to believe they will operate F35C (not all RAF), will hopefully operate all Merlin and if rumours are true purchase a new maritime surveillance platform (leaving the RAF with Rivet Joint). How many Globalhawks could you buy for a billion pounds?

 

[Systems Adict]

... How many Globalhawks could you buy for a billion pounds?

Here's wot Wiki says about price.....

Northrop Grumman RQ-4 Global Hawk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Global Hawk costs about $35 million USD (actual per-aircraft costs; with development costs also included, the per-aircraft cost rises to $123.2 million USD each)."

Now that got me thinking, on a bit of a tangent....

Global Hawk is flown from a land base, sent wherever it's needed & returned.

So.... What about a Maritime / Naval version (being aware after reading the Wiki article that it has been mooted), with the ability to fly from a carrier ??

It's then you start to look at the figures & see that it's not really that practical...

Here's a VERY self explanitory table...

Aircraft Wingspan (M)

Global Hawk - 35.41
F-18 Super Hornet - 13.62
F35 B - 10.7
F35 C - 13.1
Eurofighter Typhoon - 10.95
C130 J Hercules - 40.41
Dassualt Rafale - 10.8

Ignoring the issues about the harsh Naval / maritime environment on equipment / components, the KEY fact is that, on average, GH has a wingspan that's nearly 3 times that of our current Carrier based fighters. That means that only those with a HUGE carrier can / could operate it (f.ex. the US)

That pretty much answers my own question !



Finally, for those who think I'm mad adding the C-130 Herc to the list, it IS a known fact that the US can & have taken off & landed a C-130 on a carrier.

File:C130-Forrestal.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


SA :jump

 

[StobieWan]

I suspect that Riksavage is referring to using GlobalHawk for the MPA replacement - ie,, land based, as a replacement for some of the capability of Nimrod. It's not a total solution to the MR4 but it'd cover some aspects required. Using an unmanned platform with the endurance involved is very attractive, but I wonder if the sensors and so forth can be incorporated into a single unmanned airframe.

It's more likely we'd go for something off the shelf - the C-295 has been suggested in those terms.

C-295


The story is still unverified and I can't believe we'd find the cash in the timeframe involved (because if we did, we'd have kept Nimrod, surely?)

Ian

 

[Hambo]

If you believe the press (Torygraph), the FAA are not being cut as a result of Harriers demise, which lends me to believe they will operate F35C (not all RAF), will hopefully operate all Merlin and if rumours are true purchase a new maritime surveillance platform (leaving the RAF with Rivet Joint). How many Globalhawks could you buy for a billion pounds?

There is a reference to the RN wanting an MPA on one of the other forums, which has led me to google ( it's Sunday I'm bored) and come up with an untested and probably undoable plan in my world, supposing you could still get the hawkeye airframe, minus the aew radar and kit, could you shoe horn in a surface search radar, a couple of weapons pylons for torpedoes or anti ship missiles, maybe an external dispenser for sonar buoys and a processing facility , maybe a MAD boom? Could enough of the MR4 work and current kit eg blue kestrel/ search water be adapted to fit at a reasonable cost? We would then have something that could take off from QE and POW so you don't need massive range. Fly them from landbases and they would provide security for the trident fleet. Also should we ever get the E2 AEW then it's an economical match. Just a shame we cant but the Viking anymore. I don't think the unmanned platforms are mature enough in technology yet. I just like the idea of a modern day gannet. Shame the country is broke.

 

[Hambo]

Paul Beaver on the southern news tonight fronting a plan to save Ark Royal as a floating civil helipad on the Thames. Nice idea, especially if it incorporated some sort of RN/FAA museum, won't hold my breath though.

 

[swerve]

The story is still unverified and I can't believe we'd find the cash in the timeframe involved (because if we did, we'd have kept Nimrod, surely?)

Ian

Agreed. It seems to me that if true, it's a trial balloon floated for the future, in the hope that the financial climate will improve by the time any money would have to be found.

ATR-72 MP/ASW has similar capacity to C-295 & already has some British sensors integrated, including Seaspray 7500E, the big brother of the Seaspray 7000E the RN will operate on its AW159s. Another candidate, if anything ever happens.