The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[riksavage]

well, they're obviously not going in geared up....

funnily enough, in Guam, Ubon and Hawai'i it was always kind of obvious to see who were the specwarries in mass transit... they just didn't fit in with your average tourist group, especially if they were straight out of the blocks and not been on the job elsewhere....

Appears the SBS have carried out an extraction of Expats using 2 x C130’s flown out of Malta supported by US Spectre Gunships (according to the press). They will have to go back to get the rest, another 150 still out there.

Liam Fox quoted in the times:

The Defence Secretary is said to be frustrated by internal Ministry of Defence resistance to changes which will see the Harrier jump jet and Nimrod reconnaissance planes scrapped, the Ark Royal decommissioned, 5,000 Navy personnel lost along with 7,000 army personnel and 25,000 MoD civilian staff.

Instead there will be a new fleet of Astute-class nuclear-powered submarines, updated Typhoons, Type-45 destroyers and Type-26 Global Combat Ships. Queen Elizabeth carriers will host fast jets and helicopters. The Army will be remodelled into five multi-role brigades, with more powers devolved to the force’s chiefs.

Based on this recent statement, no going back on the decision to axe Harrier or STOVL carriers. SF are to receive a boost in numbers and capabilities, which should confirm the importance of not just tier one assets but 3 Commando and 16 Air Assualt

 

[gf0012-aust]

Appears the SBS have carried out an extraction of Expats using 2 x C130’s flown out of Malta supported by US Spectre Gunships (according to the press). They will have to go back to get the rest, another 150 still out there.

I reckon there is some poetic license if this is what the press are saying....

eg

where did the C130's stage out from? add in where were the Spectres staged out from?

All the current extractions are benign, as the port and airport in tripoli is not under hostile management

unless the nationals are under threat, then you wouldn't use specials to do the recovery, esp when there are other military forces already onboard and with other countries already in place and who have already made commitments and are able to do the recoveries for UK if things tense up. eg the US and Canada have been recovering UK nationals over the last week or so.

you would be using specfor to recover embassy staff and privileged material, not cash and carry for expats and nationals.. you use them to double duty protecting critical staff (Recovery) as well as securing the critical sites (embassy/charge de affaires etc... ) while other forces support

I've no doubt that they're there, I have a doubt that their job is to recover non embassy staff (ie nationals) and I have a serious doubt that the US would be running Spectres over Tripoli as military aircraft would have to be granted overflight and landing permission etc... Landing is a given in a benign environment, and is a waste of resources when the US (like everyone else) is pre-occupied getting people out. Esp when the US is recovering non US nationals as well. The Libyans would be OK with double hatted transports, but Spectres have bugger all room to carry extra people and are combat assets. The Libyans would be saying no to combat assets.

If they need to send a kinetic message they have the 5th Fleet immediately nearby and a number of supporting assets attached to 2 other task forces within 2 days sailing time.

 

[Troothsayer]

where did the C130's stage out from?

Malta.

Foreign Secretary William Hague confirmed this morning entry was without Libyan permission.

 

[swerve]

I reckon there is some poetic license if this is what the press are saying....

eg
where did the C130's stage out from? add in where were the Spectres staged out from?

All the current extractions are benign, as the port and airport in tripoli is not under hostile management...

I have a serious doubt that the US would be running Spectres over Tripoli as military aircraft would have to be granted overflight and landing permission etc... Landing is a given in a benign environment, and is a waste of resources when the US (like everyone else) is pre-occupied getting people out. Esp when the US is recovering non US nationals as well. The Libyans would be OK with double hatted transports, but Spectres have bugger all room to carry extra people and are combat assets. The Libyans would be saying no to combat assets.....

I've not heard anything about Spectres, nor seen any pictures of them.

The accounts I've seen, & heard broadcast, mention only two RAF Hercules operating out of Malta, with a small SAS detachment aboard. They picked up foreign nationals (<50% British) from a site deep in the interior, in the east of the country, far from any territory controlled by Gadhafi.

It was done without Libyan permission. Nobody is reported to have complained. The new authorities in Benghazi, who seem to be trying to establish a new government but do not yet control the oil camps (though they do control the Brega terminal on the coast), have not objected.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I've not heard anything about Spectres, nor seen any pictures of them.

The accounts I've seen, & heard broadcast, mention only two RAF Hercules operating out of Malta, with a small SAS detachment aboard. They picked up foreign nationals (<50% British) from a site deep in the interior, in the east of the country, far from any territory controlled by Gadhafi.

It was done without Libyan permission. Nobody is reported to have complained. The new authorities in Benghazi, who seem to be trying to establish a new government but do not yet control the oil camps (though they do control the Brega terminal on the coast), have not objected.

I guess that points to how far out of control the current Govt is. It is a bit odd to advertise sending your specials in for what is a vanilla extraction

All of the east however is not in Govt control. so risks would be down

 

[swerve]

We just did it again with three Hercules, & I've seen a report that two Luftwaffe Transalls, with a few paratroops as guards, did the same yesterday.

I believe the troops are aboard in case of banditry, rather than because organised opposition is encountered. The organised rebels* appear to have no objection to foreign workers being evacuated (though I expect they'd like some skilled ones back when things settle down), but the extractions have been from areas which don't seem to be controlled by anyone at the moment.

*Note that 'organised' refers to what they appear to have become since rebelling, or appear to be becoming, rather than what they were when they rebelled.

 

[riksavage]

We just did it again with three Hercules, & I've seen a report that two Luftwaffe Transalls, with a few paratroops as guards, did the same yesterday.

I believe the troops are aboard in case of banditry, rather than because organised opposition is encountered. The organised rebels* appear to have no objection to foreign workers being evacuated (though I expect they'd like some skilled ones back when things settle down), but the extractions have been from areas which don't seem to be controlled by anyone at the moment.

*Note that 'organised' refers to what they appear to have become since rebelling, or appear to be becoming, rather than what they were when they rebelled.

Sky reported a Spectre circling over the Herc's on the ground providing top-cover, however I can't believe that to be true and it hasn't been confirmed by the MOD or reported in the broadsheets. Other reports claim SF arrived on Cumberland and hooked up with local friendly's to ensure the landings were unopposed and the airfields were clear. How they then moved from Benghazi to the remote areas is another matter. I did note the UK Chinooks at Valletta didn't have the extended fuel tanks associated with the airframes typically assigned to SF. This type of mission is practiced by 16-Air Assault on a regular basis, so the need to up the anti and use tier one assets was probably driven by the SF mafia wanting to get in on the act.

 

[gf0012-aust]

We just did it again with three Hercules, & I've seen a report that two Luftwaffe Transalls, with a few paratroops as guards, did the same yesterday.

I believe the troops are aboard in case of banditry, rather than because organised opposition is encountered. The organised rebels* appear to have no objection to foreign workers being evacuated (though I expect they'd like some skilled ones back when things settle down), but the extractions have been from areas which don't seem to be controlled by anyone at the moment.

*Note that 'organised' refers to what they appear to have become since rebelling, or appear to be becoming, rather than what they were when they rebelled.

Its quite interesting from I've seen as there appears to be comment that the germans prepped the area for one of the recoveries.

SAS were attached to one flight as the ground conditions were unknown (hot)

apparently the latter recoveries were secured by locals.

 

[riksavage]

Its quite interesting from I've seen as there appears to be comment that the germans prepped the area for one of the recoveries.

SAS were attached to one flight as the ground conditions were unknown (hot)

apparently the latter recoveries were secured by locals.

MOD has confirmed 1 x C130 suffered small arms damage, the rest returned unscathed. I'm sure it will come out in wash who supported who on the ground (SAS/SBS or KSK).

Hopefully this sudden collapse of North African regimes will be the catalyst for closer working relations amongst the various European NATO SF communities. The Anglo-French exercise later this year will hopefully focus on a strategic raiding type scenario, ideal opportunity to plan for similar Libya style meltdowns.

 

[gf0012-aust]

MOD has confirmed 1 x C130 suffered small arms damage, the rest returned unscathed. I'm sure it will come out in wash who supported who on the ground (SAS/SBS or KSK).

german assistance was apparently civlilian...

 

[swerve]

I'm going to veer off onto a different track, related (shock horror!) to the Royal Navy.

It's planned to procure an undetermined number but (we hope) at least a dozen Type 26 frigates to replace Type 22 & 23. What names should they be given?

Since the RN now has very small numbers of ships, & a vast number of already used ship names, I prefer to re-use old names. I'd also quite like to continue the recent (though not invariant) practice of alphabetical classes, or batches within classes. The next letter is E.

Therefore, I propose that Batch 1 should have names from the following:
Emerald, Exeter, Edinburgh (after the current one is retired), Effingham, Erebus, Encounter.
Batch 2 from Falkland, Falmouth, Felixstowe, Fife, Folkestone, Fowey, Finisterre, Frobisher, Fearless, Formidable, Fortitude, Furious, Fury.
Batch 3 (if there is one) from Gladiator, Gallant, Glorious, Glory, Goliath, Gibraltar, Glamorgan, Glasgow, Gloucester (when the name comes free), Gosport, Greenwich, Grafton, Gravelines.

Any other ideas?

 

[Padfoot]

Time for another Greek mythology class. How about Bellerophon class?

HMS Bellerophon , HMS Amphion, HMS Sirius, HMS Dryad, HMS Astrea, HMS Galatea, HMS Naiad, etc.

I know two of the Astutes are to be called Agamemnon and Ajax, but still ...

 

[kev 99]

I'm going to veer off onto a different track, related (shock horror!) to the Royal Navy.

It's planned to procure an undetermined number but (we hope) at least a dozen Type 26 frigates to replace Type 22 & 23. What names should they be given?

Since the RN now has very small numbers of ships, & a vast number of already used ship names, I prefer to re-use old names. I'd also quite like to continue the recent (though not invariant) practice of alphabetical classes, or batches within classes. The next letter is E.

Therefore, I propose that Batch 1 should have names from the following:
Emerald, Exeter, Edinburgh (after the current one is retired), Effingham, Erebus, Encounter.
Batch 2 from Falkland, Falmouth, Felixstowe, Fife, Folkestone, Fowey, Finisterre, Frobisher, Fearless, Formidable, Fortitude, Furious, Fury.
Batch 3 (if there is one) from Gladiator, Gallant, Glorious, Glory, Goliath, Gibraltar, Glamorgan, Glasgow, Gloucester (when the name comes free), Gosport, Greenwich, Grafton, Gravelines.

Any other ideas?

There's an 'E' class already, even though the aren't exactly warships.

If you're going to use E for the new class you've left out some of my favourites: Electra, Excalibur and Euryalus.

 

[Repulse]

There's an 'E' class already, even though the aren't exactly warships.

If you're going to use E for the new class you've left out some of my favourites: Electra, Excalibur and Euryalus.

I think Escapade and Escort are also good ones.

 

[kev 99]

I think Escapade and Escort are also good ones.

Escapade could be paired with Dairing for a rather rakish sounding floatilla

 

[StobieWan]

Well, blow me down, Cameron is talking about a no fly zone in Libya. My first reaction was unprintable, something on the lines of "and how are you going to enforce that, seeing as you've killed off fixed wing aviation in the Navy scrapped most of the carriers we could have used?"

Then it hit me, he's making noises, with the hopes (One assumes) the US will bring a carrier along.

I suppose a passing attempt at a CAP could be flown from Malta with tanker support and Typhoon but we're talking 800 Nm round trip just to the edges of the coast?

Ian

 

[riksavage]

Well, blow me down, Cameron is talking about a no fly zone in Libya. My first reaction was unprintable, something on the lines of "and how are you going to enforce that, seeing as you've killed off fixed wing aviation in the Navy scrapped most of the carriers we could have used?"

Then it hit me, he's making noises, with the hopes (One assumes) the US will bring a carrier along.

I suppose a passing attempt at a CAP could be flown from Malta with tanker support and Typhoon but we're talking 800 Nm round trip just to the edges of the coast?

Ian

Cameron was referring to a NATO member response under a UN mandate

Not sure what GR9's designed for CAS would have brought to the table with regard to enforcing a no-fly zone against Migs unless they are restricted to chasing Hinds.

UK should stick to providing low key advice on the ground to the rebels using embedded SF assets. With the UK having 10,000 still in A-Stan let the no fly zone be covered by those whose backyard faces the Med (Italy and Spain).

 

[1805]

Cameron was referring to a NATO response.

Not sure what GR9's designed for CAS would have brought to the table with regard to enforcing a no-fly zone against Migs unless they are restricted to chasing Hinds.

UK should stick to providing low key advice on the ground to the rebels using embedded SF assets. With the UK having 10,000 still in A-Stan let the no fly zone be covered by those whose backyard faces the Med (Italy and Spain).

If you add France to the list all still have fixed wing carrier aviation (none of which are as good as what the RN might have in 10+ years...)

 

[Padfoot]

Well, blow me down, Cameron is talking about a no fly zone in Libya. My first reaction was unprintable, something on the lines of "and how are you going to enforce that, seeing as you've killed off fixed wing aviation in the Navy scrapped most of the carriers we could have used?"

Then it hit me, he's making noises, with the hopes (One assumes) the US will bring a carrier along.

I suppose a passing attempt at a CAP could be flown from Malta with tanker support and Typhoon but we're talking 800 Nm round trip just to the edges of the coast?

Ian

Wouldn't they operate from Cyprus? Surely a 2-3 hour CAP is possible with a tanker? Wouldn't the Ark Royal have been useless in this scenario? No air to air and all that.

 

[StobieWan]

Cameron was referring to a NATO member response under a UN mandate

Not sure what GR9's designed for CAS would have brought to the table with regard to enforcing a no-fly zone against Migs unless they are restricted to chasing Hinds.

UK should stick to providing low key advice on the ground to the rebels using embedded SF assets. With the UK having 10,000 still in A-Stan let the no fly zone be covered by those whose backyard faces the Med (Italy and Spain).

Very true, we're doing our bit for world peace etc already - there's others more directly involved who can contribute more effectively. I'm just harking back to Cameron's comments prior to the SDR when he referred to the RAF having Typhoons "ready to dogfight it out with the Russians and clearly that's no good" or something to that effect - and now of course, horror of horrors, we're possibly facing a shooting war with an opposition with an air force, Navy and all the trimmings.


Ian