Also Romania, I think. And Turkey, which is in NATO but not the EU, of course.
The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter overlander
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Grand Danois
Entertainer
Hum. I don't think they (we) need to spend more, as long as we provide the promised capability. Sidenote - I think the Danes (and Canadians) have also done very well in Afghanistan, but that just my petty nationalism talking.
I don't this kind of cooperation requires such a deep level of political integration. As long as the larger nations have the centrepieces, task forces can be made... There a many examples of this, ad hoc and standing.
The RN cannot lose the ability to operate balanced - albeit smaller - naval forces worldwide. To reduce anyone element to a point where it becomes necessary to go to Europe for escorts is simply not an option.. Doesn't matter how sensible it sounds, or looks on paper, even our political masters would stop short of selling the UK capability for unilateral action.
A balanced RN operating in concert with Europe - and others - to enhance power projection? Absolutely yes.
A balanced RN operating in concert with Europe - and others - to enhance power projection? Absolutely yes.
Super Nimrod
New Member
Word is getting about. American Tabloid
http://www.nypost.com/seven/0114200...e_royal_navy_opedcolumnists_arthur_herman.htm
http://www.nypost.com/seven/0114200...e_royal_navy_opedcolumnists_arthur_herman.htm
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
You mean Murdock-controlled bull. Dude, that article is just leeching off the Telegraph's articles. There's no new news - it's just an anti-European rant.Word is getting about. American Tabloid
http://www.nypost.com/seven/0114200...e_royal_navy_opedcolumnists_arthur_herman.htm
File it under I - "ignore".
That's really sad!Word is getting about. American Tabloid
http://www.nypost.com/seven/0114200...e_royal_navy_opedcolumnists_arthur_herman.htm
I have Arthur Herman's book To Rule the Waves: How the British Navy Shaped the Modern World in my collection. I quite enjoyed it (though it too contained a few mistakes).
There is no way that the guy can be such an idiot? I guess it's all about making an impression and if making it up as you go along is the only way to do that, then so be it.
Foe example, what's this supposed to mean?
Seems he is trying to give the impression that Britain isn't pulling her weight, yet nothing could be further from the truth.
Why do tabloids carry on like this?
P.S *sarcasm* How is it possible that Indonesia can maintain a navy larger than Great Britain's with a defence budget of $1.3 billion whilst Britain spends over $50 billion on defence(more than France or Germany,btw) - How stupid are these journos?
Rant over!
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Because the MOD has more civil servants then any other nations. Wastes £3 billion on a new computer system to calculate wages that doesnt work, have huge cost over-runs on many projects, hire outside firms for various projects, spend too much on advertising and is involved in two major wars which eat up training and deployments budgets. If you discount all this from the defence budget there is not very much left.
If we are not careful this nations navy will become the laughing stock of the world.
This is the navy we need
2 CVF Carriers
10 Air Defence Destroyers
19 Frigates
A number of corvettes for active duties such as Fawlklands patrol, west indies patrol etc
and cut the number of Submarines possibly.
Many on this forum i feel are forgetting our commitments to our commonwealth realms and overseas territories. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea still have Queen Elizabeth as there head of state and look up to the UK as a major power. If we cut our forces this will cut our power. The same can be said about overseas territories who rely on us for defence. I would want independence from Britain now if i was them, as we cannot defend out own nation let alone our overseas commitments.
As for the possibility of an EU Navy. No Way
We are still the best navy in Europe in my opinion. Only France has more ships but soon we will have better technology. We still have time to save and rebuild the royal navy not thrust it into a alliance that steals the sovereighnty of the navy.
I would like to think that these last few years and next few years are simply growing pains as the Navy buys big, important platforms. After they are bought i hope we may see a slight increase in ships. Though with the current labour government i cant see this happening any time soon. The defence savings speech will be very very intresting though.
When is the speech btw?
Agreed. Any person who suggests that Indonesia can maintain a larger navy than Great Britain's is stupid. Perhaps they are just looking at the total number of vessels and making no distinction between say a Type 45 destroyer and an ex East German patrol boat!
nfloorl: The indisputable fact is that the Indonesian Navy has nowhere near the capability of the RN at present and that is most unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.
Cheers
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
All those states are independent. In regards to overseas territories, generally we fund THEM. So unless they want to start paying their own way to subsidise a frigate or whatever to be deployed to look after them, they will get what we can spare.
The countries you mention certainly do have Queen Elizabeth as their head of state and I believe that the majority of their citizens still look up to the UK, perhaps with a bit of nostalga in the case of people in my generation. I'm not sure though that many would be relying on the UK for their defence. Australia, for example, relies on its own capabilities together with its alliance with the USA.
The territories are a different matter and I think Britain has an obligation to provide adequately for their defence.
Cheers
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contedicavour
New Member
UK - European naval collaboration
> binational task forces already exist : Anglo-Dutch and Italo-Spanish amphibious task forces for example. Not to mention the standing NATO naval formations regrouping virtually all NATO navies.
> I agree priority n°1 would be to increase defence spending. We all know it is unlikely to be enough to pay for all the needed ships with their ever inflating costs. So collaboration with Europe will be indispensable and require the British government to to accept that some solitary missions are no longer possible if there isn't a common vision of foreign policy. It's just plain logic. Either the government spends more or the government's foreign policy options will from now on be limited to those consensual enough for the other major European countries. Only the US can afford to act alone.
cheers
PS : France's foreign policy will always be very nationalist and unlikely to coincide with the UK's, whether the French govt is run by the right or the left. Collaboration is likelier with other European countries when they are run by the right (Aznar's Spain, Berlusconi's Italy, even potentially Merkel's Germany though not until the SPD is out of govt), especially when it comes to tough choices such as Iraq was.
A couple of comments :
> binational task forces already exist : Anglo-Dutch and Italo-Spanish amphibious task forces for example. Not to mention the standing NATO naval formations regrouping virtually all NATO navies.
> I agree priority n°1 would be to increase defence spending. We all know it is unlikely to be enough to pay for all the needed ships with their ever inflating costs. So collaboration with Europe will be indispensable and require the British government to to accept that some solitary missions are no longer possible if there isn't a common vision of foreign policy. It's just plain logic. Either the government spends more or the government's foreign policy options will from now on be limited to those consensual enough for the other major European countries. Only the US can afford to act alone.
cheers
PS : France's foreign policy will always be very nationalist and unlikely to coincide with the UK's, whether the French govt is run by the right or the left. Collaboration is likelier with other European countries when they are run by the right (Aznar's Spain, Berlusconi's Italy, even potentially Merkel's Germany though not until the SPD is out of govt), especially when it comes to tough choices such as Iraq was.
Just got in, but if memory serves, Britain is still committed to the Five Powers Agreement, with Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Malaysia, and oh yes the UK. This is where I start souning like a politician, but anyhow, whilst the UK is not directly responsible for the defence of any of the five powers members, we have a reputation to uphold, and i'm sure anyone who gives any of the Five Powers members evil looks will face the full might of whatever remains of the Royal Navy, with a few fishing boats, container ships, and cruise liners on the side. :uk
You're right of course and I'm sure Britain would do its best but I don't think there would be an expectation that more than a small force could be sent. Mind you, it could still be a potent one. The Kiwis would be in the same position. As always they would do their best but the hardware (combat aircraft for example) is just not there! They could probably provide a frigate and perhaps a battalion of troops. Singapore and Malaysia have built and are continuing to build competent, well equipped forces and IMO, would now provide the bulk of any force the five powers are able to put together. Australia could commit frigates, submarines and a reasonably potent air combat force, plus a ground taskforce of approx brigade strength to the group. How much would the UK be able to provide at present, yet alone in the future? Perhaps a couple of destroyers and frigates would be available and even one or two of the SSNs would make a significant contibution to any force. I guess the amphibious force could provide some ground forces providing there was no other conflict requiring them at the same time.
Its all rather sad for those of us old enough to still remember the Empire. Mind you the Empire did strike back in the Falklands so maybe there is still something left if it is stirred up enough!
Cheers
With any luck come 2020 the RN will be able to field a small carrier battle group centered around HMS Queen Elizabeth, and I'm sure that come that period of time, there'll be a few in the Royal Navy after taking HMS Queen Elizabeth on a world cruise, just to remind the world that the Royal Navy can yield a swift and hopefully decisive response to anyone who threatens Britain's interests, and at the same time offer a sabastian of hope for those in peril on both the high seas, and on land (through modern day calamnities).You're right of course and I'm sure Britain would do its best but I don't think there would be an expectation that more than a small force could be sent. Mind you, it could still be a potent one. The Kiwis would be in the same position. As always they would do their best but the hardware (combat aircraft for example) is just not there! They could probably provide a frigate and perhaps a battalion of troops. Singapore and Malaysia have built and are continuing to build competent, well equipped forces and IMO, would now provide the bulk of any force the five powers are able to put together. Australia could commit frigates, submarines and a reasonably potent air combat force, plus a ground taskforce of approx brigade strength to the group. How much would the UK be able to provide at present, yet alone in the future? Perhaps a couple of destroyers and frigates would be available and even one or two of the SSNs would make a significant contibution to any force. I guess the amphibious force could provide some ground forces providing there was no other conflict requiring them at the same time.
Its all rather sad for those of us old enough to still remember the Empire. Mind you the Empire did strike back in the Falklands so maybe there is still something left if it is stirred up enough!
Cheers
:uk
A task Force centred around QE and its F35Bs, plus the presence of a couple of SSNs would certainly encourage a lot of would be trouble makers to keep their hands of British interests. :ar15
Let's hope the politicians preserve that sort of capability.
Cheers
Britain’s exit plan out of Singapore and Malaysia. Of course today Singapore would be a most difficult nut to crack and is a good example of a country that takes defence seriously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Power_Defence_Arrangements
As to the remaining 'pink' bits on the map they are difficult enough to find, which may be their best defence! The notable exception being the Falklands...
A carrier battle group; an amphibious group plus escorts and a sprinkling of SSN's, not to be sneezed at... oops forgot it's still 2007. If no carrier order this time next year then I will worry.
I often worry about Gibraltar. Get a dictator or a strong government in spain and an invasion of Gibraltar may not be far off. I think we could probably match and beat the capabilities of spain who atm have only 1 aircraft carrier. But i do worry about the future of this colony.
Spain is our friend.
Furthermore, Spain has a very successful economy(since 1990 the fastest growing in all of Europe) and is extremely unlikely to be the target of a military coup in the immediate future i.e next 150 years or so.
Have you been asleep for the last 30 years? I don't want to be rude, but to think there is the slightest possibility of Spain invading Gibraltar shows a world view that lacks much contact with reality.
I think you need to get out more.