FutureTank
Banned Member
Big-E....do you know if the Chinese Navy's Air Arm being upgraded? Last time I looked was about two years ago.
The PLA airborne troops!
- Thread starter bjskyhorse
- Start date
guess what?? 3RAR has jumped in to Cape York Penninsular ...1986 or 87. The whole battalian group. Includeing heavey drop. The DZ was Silver plains, and the bn occupied the town of Coen. 3RAR was the enemy force against 1 and 2/4RAR as well as an American unit. It was a huge ex. Not only that, we have jumped into the Coco,s(Keeling) islands, Cape Barron Island in Bass straight,in winter, Innes fail near Tully and a heap of challengeing terrain. Typically, DZ,s that can accomadate a Bn group are always a "fair walk" from the objective, or the Dz ,once secured can become an LZ for choppers bringing more troops or used as a fwd opperating base. Terrain is no real obstical for an airbourne unit.Yes, I take your point, but given political orientation I don't think Beijing is interested
Abramsteve....you have your answer
Ask around if anyone from 3RAR ever contemplated jumping into York Peninsula as a unit...and conducting an offensive operation
abramsteve
New Member
Ahh ok mate, yean I wouldnt be so happy about jumping on that either!
Yep, agreed, thats whys its a rediculous plan.
I dunno, probably not, but hey if they need that island badly enough for some reason who knows what they'd be willing to sacrafice... although their entire airforce would probably be a bit to much.
Only once they arrive, speed is the key. Unless they have permanent stations there?The strips will be occupied by USAF, and they may have something to say about it
Naturally, however I beg to differ. If both sides refuse to mount offensive operations against one another, due to either low numbers or fear of crippiling losses, I would call this a stalemate. Like I said they only need air superiority for a few hours in which to conduct the airborne landings. After that as long as they can secure air corridors for resupply that should be sufficent.
This is where the quantity of the PLAAF may be able to defeat the home team advantage lent to the ROC. Then again it didnt work for the Germans during the Battle of Britain...
Once air superirority is attained, SEAD mission could open the door for the airborne drop. Keeping in mind we are talking about a high loss scenario here!
Agree with you here, I dont know how that could be achevied, tac nukes maybe??? theres somthing to piss people off!
Agree again. A normandy style airborne drop securing the rear of the beachheads would work, but then as you have already said, they must slug it all the way in land. This would work against the 'speed is the key' theory.
Force a surrender? Or maybe partial reunification would be acceptable to the Chinese aims? I dont have a reason for why they are invading, just that it needs to be done fast and at whatever the cost.
Yep completely agree, hence the reason why its a rediclous idea. Really Im just spitballing idea...
abramsteve
New Member
That is impressive! Its not somthing you hear about often, but its good to know that they are capable of it!
FutureTank
Banned Member
Paradrops: Taipei
How dense was the vegetation in the DZ?
Ok, if I have your attention, I would like to ask some questions please.
My thinking was based on the number of airborne ops proposed but never undertaken by US Army in Vietnam because of the terrain, and also by Russians avoiding Paradrops because of mountain thermals.
I was also told that Chilean training drop in the 90s went horribly wrong resulting in several dead and wounded in jungle terrain. Of course Taiwanese terrain is not jungle, but I still thought it was difficult enough to drop a substantial force onto the side of a fairly densely forested mountain (for Taipei).
There are three DZs around Taipei.
#1 is directly NW from Taipei city. It is separated by a rather wide river, and would require taking a bridge. The DZ is about 5x5km. There is a 2000m mountain on the NW of the DZ, and a small valley running SW.
#2 is an area W of the above mountain. It is hammed in between two airbases and bisected by a highway. However it is twice the size and there is an unobstructed approach from either W, or NW.
#3 is to the E of Taipei city. It is about 7x15km running NE to SW, bisected by a small river in the N and a stream in the S. I think the approach is from N, but there are hills to the SE (ridgeline) in the 2-2500m range.
The advantage of the #3 DZ is that other then Taipei AD there is nothing else there. The other two DZs are covered by AD from four neighbouring AF bases.
Can you share your thoughts on who, what and how?
Cheers
Greg
My mistake, I meant to type Cape York in Queensland...the very forested part, so I am suitably impressed. I haven't heard of these jumps.
How dense was the vegetation in the DZ?
Ok, if I have your attention, I would like to ask some questions please.
My thinking was based on the number of airborne ops proposed but never undertaken by US Army in Vietnam because of the terrain, and also by Russians avoiding Paradrops because of mountain thermals.
I was also told that Chilean training drop in the 90s went horribly wrong resulting in several dead and wounded in jungle terrain. Of course Taiwanese terrain is not jungle, but I still thought it was difficult enough to drop a substantial force onto the side of a fairly densely forested mountain (for Taipei).
There are three DZs around Taipei.
#1 is directly NW from Taipei city. It is separated by a rather wide river, and would require taking a bridge. The DZ is about 5x5km. There is a 2000m mountain on the NW of the DZ, and a small valley running SW.
#2 is an area W of the above mountain. It is hammed in between two airbases and bisected by a highway. However it is twice the size and there is an unobstructed approach from either W, or NW.
#3 is to the E of Taipei city. It is about 7x15km running NE to SW, bisected by a small river in the N and a stream in the S. I think the approach is from N, but there are hills to the SE (ridgeline) in the 2-2500m range.
The advantage of the #3 DZ is that other then Taipei AD there is nothing else there. The other two DZs are covered by AD from four neighbouring AF bases.
Can you share your thoughts on who, what and how?
Cheers
Greg
FutureTank
Banned Member
If it works, its not rediculous
Its 14.5h flight from LAX to Taipei. Can Chinese Air Force become fully combat ready in that time WITHOUT giving ANY warning?
Yes, but we ARE talking about one side taking the offensive
I don't know. Whe I looked at it the Taiwanese AD was looking pretty good and they were looking to upgrade it. That was about a year and a half ago.
Problem is there is no 'inland'
There is a 25-35km strip of lowland West coast. Chances are the Taiwanese would fight for it. The coast is very builtup. The Austrlian tactical term for the operation is a "s**tfight" But you are on the right track. It took me a better part of 3 weeks with an ONC chart 1:1,000,000 to realise conventional ops are not an option. I was going to do a wargame scenario because I have an airborne brigade (Russian) from Cold War days. I was going to play out the air superiority, escort and approach AD fire bordgame-style.
That's actually one of the big problems outlined in this years Chinese annual report to Congress. The Kitty Hawk is the ONLY forward deployed CV in PACFLT. If Kitty Hawk is the only carrier on station in the Western Pacific and say that SSK that stalked her actually crippled her with a couple trops into the props Taiwan would be screwed. We don't station CVNs in Pearl, the nearest docks are in California. With the nearest carriers being in Cali and Indian Ocean it will take over a week to get there.
China on the otherhand is a master of deception. I wouldn't be suprised if they could fool our intelligence. I mean CIA thought Sadam had WMDs... how hard can it be? With CIA and Kitty HAwk as vulnerable as they are and forward deployment as weak as it is now is the time to use military force.
FutureTank
Banned Member
Ok, I am very surprised. While I am not tracking USN movements, my impression from a few years ago was that the 3:1 meant there was a CSG in Japan and another in Hawaii with one deployed.
However monitoring large number of differnt types of troops preparing for conducting combat operations is not like looking for WMDs. This is 'bread and butter' of recon work for all manner of analysts within DoD, so they would be very independent of CIA. I ffel that on the scale of op we are talking here the US, and other analysts could not miss it.
However a week is a bit too long. USAF it is
Sorry Big-EI would look at another option....sead and strike of the air bases,followed by airbourne/air mobile assault to secure the runways. Follow up by transport aircraft flying in reo,s. This requires air surpiriority in the first place to be successful. Every airport is a DZ, every farm a DZ.
The DZ for ex Diamond Doller was a farm paddock ,freshly plowed, so was uneven. It was not a great DZ, but usable. There was 1 death.(Craig Bateman) and a few sprains and breaks, but as a whole, very successful. About 600 were dropped includeing Unimogs and land rovers.
East of Taipei 15km7km!! bloody hell that is massive!! It would take a few bns to secure the DZ alone!
FYI on smaller DZ,s , large numbers of troops can still be used by staggering the height of the aircaft..ie...aircaft 1-4 drop from 1200 ft, 4-8 1000 ft, 8-12 850 ft. The lowest ive personally done was 650ft AGL.
FutureTank
Banned Member
Use of Airborne Corps
I had listed several strategic option earlier on approaching Taiwan from a conventional methods POV.
While I still think it can’t be done at current Chinese capabilities, IF attempted, the airborne troops would not be used ‘Normandy’ style simply because there is no reason to do so given lack of depth in Taiwanese defence.
The Chinese have an airborne Corps, as well as some independent regiments. The area around Taipei is fairly easily defended against an amphibious assault, but in a fight for air superiority the airborne Corps transports may just get through.
Obviously to secure a city the size of Taipei it is likely that the entire Corps would be required. Given your suggestions, and the difficulty of delivering a three-division Corps into even the largest DZ (because of the reaction of defenders over the time it would take to conduct the drop, secure the DZ and deploy the forces) I would think that it may be a better option to attempt to capture the I-Lan airstrip located on the Eastern part of Northern Taiwan. However this is located 40-45km from Taipei, and would still require a hike over low mountains (1500-2000m altitude).
The advantage is that the area is not likely to be defended as well, the route of advance is likely to be unexpected for the defenders, and the airstrip is less likely to have extensive AD assets. However I don’t know what the size of the runway is there, and if it can accommodate the larger transport aircraft. It may be required to deploy runway construction resources with the initial drop to permit landing of follow on flights.
When I say 15 x 7km, this is an area which is somewhat built up…sort of like Geelong and surrounding countryside.
I had listed several strategic option earlier on approaching Taiwan from a conventional methods POV.
While I still think it can’t be done at current Chinese capabilities, IF attempted, the airborne troops would not be used ‘Normandy’ style simply because there is no reason to do so given lack of depth in Taiwanese defence.
The Chinese have an airborne Corps, as well as some independent regiments. The area around Taipei is fairly easily defended against an amphibious assault, but in a fight for air superiority the airborne Corps transports may just get through.
Obviously to secure a city the size of Taipei it is likely that the entire Corps would be required. Given your suggestions, and the difficulty of delivering a three-division Corps into even the largest DZ (because of the reaction of defenders over the time it would take to conduct the drop, secure the DZ and deploy the forces) I would think that it may be a better option to attempt to capture the I-Lan airstrip located on the Eastern part of Northern Taiwan. However this is located 40-45km from Taipei, and would still require a hike over low mountains (1500-2000m altitude).
The advantage is that the area is not likely to be defended as well, the route of advance is likely to be unexpected for the defenders, and the airstrip is less likely to have extensive AD assets. However I don’t know what the size of the runway is there, and if it can accommodate the larger transport aircraft. It may be required to deploy runway construction resources with the initial drop to permit landing of follow on flights.
i think it would be HIGHLY unlikely that Taiwan would be taken be airbourne forces alone. However, if they could grt a div on the ground quickly,with air support, they might be able to combine with marine assets and armour and do it that way. Personally,I think they would strangle their economy be restricting exports and imports,combined with the stock exchange and then military action.
FutureTank
Banned Member
Sead
Just a question - does conduct of SEAD in support of medium to large scale airdrop/airmobile operation require establishment of air superiority?
Thank you
Just a question - does conduct of SEAD in support of medium to large scale airdrop/airmobile operation require establishment of air superiority?
Thank you
SEAD is the very beginning of establishing air superiority!
FutureTank
Banned Member
Yes of course. I was only focusing on the airbourne op within the context of a larger campaign.
I'm just dubious of success in the face of the air battle unless the transports were able to somehow effect surprise.
FutureTank
Banned Member
Yes, I know that. However I only know about US and USSR's doctrines for use of airborne troops. Neither help in understanding what would happen with Taiwan because of the nature of the terrain - the Strait.
Would Germany have conducted a surprise airbourne/airlanding assault on UK PRIOR to commencing Battle of Britain?
The USSR doctrine required at least a temporary air superiority within the sector of passage during airbourne deploymen to DZ.
For US it goes without question that a full SEAD and AS be established in the zone of AB operation
So if surprise it to be achieved the AB need to go in before SEAD, but even lifting one regiment (to take the airstrip) is likely to be noticed, never mind a division or a Corps
On the other hand if Sead gois in first, it may suppress the AD, but it will alert ground units, and you know how AB like landing over armour
Typically, SF would be deployed before airbourne forces...by sub,air or other covert means,they would check out the DZ,and opposing forces. A plan would to deal with the situation would be based on intel from sat/SF and other intell agencies,, on the best way to approach the situation. SF would designate targets minutes before the drop, and a strike package would accompany the drop. Its an awsome feeling jumping from a herc after 3-4 hours in the belly of the thing, look up to do a canopy inspection and see half a dozen F111,s flying on the perimiter of the DZ. Surpise is also achieved by clever deception plans. On one occasion, a couple of hercs dropped a couple of hundred jerry cans of water about a hundred kms from the real DZ. There are numerous ways to keep the element of surprise. The SEAD package may only be a few minutes before the drop.
FutureTank
Banned Member
OF, I actually started with the premise of the need for surprise, and therefore deception. After considering the conventional options you listed, and Taiwanese posture and capability to detect and defeat these, I came to the conclusion that the conventional op is virtually impossible even if the Chinese accept high casualties.
The Taiwanese are always on the lookout for Chinese infiltration
It seems their doctrine is based on the "prevention is better then cure" philosophy By the way, do you mind if I ask, since you brought it up, what is the Australian equivalent of 'pathfinder' unit? Is there a platoon within 3RAR or a separate unit, or is this a job for SASR?
every Aust INF Bn has its own recon PL. These guys are good,and supply the Bns sniper element. They would work in conjunction withSASR. Designation of targets and op,s are SASR domain.