The Indonesian Army

[bdique]

What could be the rationale behind replacing a tracked platform with a wheeled one? I can't see the value of this approach unless the BTR-4 represents a cheaper option instead of an all BMP-3F fleet.

Read more: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/army-security-forces/indonesian-army-10167-38/#ixzz2rlhtFfFt

Koxinga, I believe this has to do with the global trend of coastal urbanisation. More and more towns and cities are being built along the coast. Many existing coastal towns are also growing rapidly. You can check out this website for more information: Ten urbanization statistics | The Anthropocene Journal

Given that there are some advantages of a wheeled IFVs in urban areas instead of tracked vehicles (i.e. better mobility, reduced chance of mobility kill, easier maintenance), then I believe this could be one reason the Marines choose the BTR-4.

 

[Ananda]

To Ananda,

I found several articles in which mentioned about the intention of Komar to replace PT-76 with BTR 4, not only one article. But just leave that small issue as it is, because Komar already had several programme to upgrade their armored vehicle at almost same timeline, first they had gradually induct BMP-3F and second they will induct BTR 4. Don't know why they are trying to purchase those vehicle batch by batch in small numbers for every batch, why they are not trying to purchase them in large number instead with multiyears scheme payments. Because, they had a plan to fielding at least three battalion of BMP 3F and 3 battalion of BTR 4 for three Pasukan Marinir.

Agree, let see what development goes. BTR-4 is also a new mentioned, and this 55 number is also new since even Ukroboronprom (Ukraine equivalent of Russian Rosoboron) only admitted the Indonesian order is only 5. Anyway, this talk on which marines going to used as Amphibious vehicle still can change, considering Pindad still pushing for their version of Anoa Amphibious, while the Marines actually seems quite in liking with small inventory of LVT-7 they have, which in the end still can turn out to be the main replacement for their PT-76, BTR-50 or even AMX-10.

 

[koxinga]

Domestic 122mm MLRS (R-HAN) being integrated into the 6 x 6 chassis.

 

[Feanor]

Given the situation with the BTR-4s, and the info about problems in production, I really have to wonder what the Indonesians are thinking. Are they at least getting new builds, or will they be getting the ones Iraq turned down?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Given the situation with the BTR-4s, and the info about problems in production, I really have to wonder what the Indonesians are thinking. Are they at least getting new builds, or will they be getting the ones Iraq turned down?

I also dont understand why Indonesia dont go to buy an additional batch of BTR-80(A)s.
Is the BTR-4 so much better or just a lot cheaper? All those small amounts of different types......

 

[Feanor]

I also dont understand why Indonesia dont go to buy an additional batch of BTR-80(A)s.
Is the BTR-4 so much better or just a lot cheaper? All those small amounts of different types......

I suspect Ukraine is quite desperate to improve the reputation of the type. But they're also in financial problems. And given problems at the factory, I doubt they can produce necessary quantities quickly. I have a suspicion that they will "fix up" and try to resell the Iraqi APCs to whoever will buy them, at whatever price is acceptable. After all maybe Indonesia won't check them quite as closely.

As far as design the BTR-4 has some improvements over the BTR-80, and can carry more modern combat modules. On the other hand the BTR-82 features some improvements, is many times cheaper, and overall the difference between them is not as great as the price difference. Most importantly the BTR-80/82 is very reliable platform, it's been in production for a long time, there are no quality issues, and the rate of production is very high. Russia could have 55 vehicles contracted, and delivered inside of 12 months if it was necessary.

So yeah. I'm not sure what the logic is. The price tag might be at play. The fact that the BTR-4 is more technologically advanced could be at play.

 

[Ananda]

The Indonesian Marines armoured vehicles inventory now consists of:
PT-76 (90mm upgrade), BTR-50, BMP-2, BTR-80, AMX-10, LVT-7 and BMP-3F. Know if looking on the official statement seems they will in the future make the inventory mostly of BMP-3F, and BTR-4. They seems want to retain AMX-10 but will replace it sometime in the future.

The inventory of BMP-2 and BTR-80 is quite interesting. Those (for Indonesian Marines standard) considered quite new with most procured on late 90's and early 2000'ish. There are no indication for more BMP-2 and procurement of BMP-3F clearly show that BMP-2 is on the way out, perhaps will be out in the same time with Modernised PT-76. What will be the replacement for those two ? Well that's why I speculated on more BMP-3F since there are clearly indications for that and also is more logical thing to do.

For BTR-50 replacement, that's is the BTR-4 come in. Yes the several article indicating BTR-50 will be replaced by BMP-3F other talk being replaced by BMP-4 while previously talked for additional BTR-80 as replacement. However for me this show no confirm move yet on the ultimate replacement program for BTR-50. I can speculate this for few indications:

1. Ukroboronprom only confirm for 5 vehicle order from Indonesia of BTR-4. For me, indicated that Indonesian Marines still want to evaluate small amount of BTR-4 on their operational used before committed on large amount.
2. Small amount ex ROK Marines LVT-7 so far showed being a popular vehicle for the Marines. Popular, since it has been used extensively by the Marines in their exercise and operations. Korean Samsung Techwin already promoting their license build LVT-7, and the plan of additional 25 ex Korean Marines LVT-7 seems in my mind interconnected with the deal.
3. Pindad still pushing for their own version of Anoa Amphibious, which according to them will be developed with the assistance of Korea and Italy. If Pindad manage to come with relative successful versions of Amphibious Anoa, then politically it will be difficult for current administration or more likely the next administration to procured foreign build wheeled amphibious armoured vehicle.

The current statement of more BTR-4 comming from Navy/Marines sourced, but no official Mindef source confirmed it yet. Since in the end procurement will be come from Mindef with Parliament confirmation, anything still can change along the way.

 

[koxinga]

Here is the Jane's picking up on the news.

Azerbaijan similarly rejected the BTR-4 over quality issues. It is strange decision from a mission angle as well. The existing BTR-50 plays a key role in ship to shore manoeuvres and the proposed BTR-4 would carry much less troops. I would have considered the LVT-7/licensed build version by PT PAL as a better fit and I thought there were some news about Pindad getting a license to assemble it from Samsung Techwin.

APA - Azerbaijan refuses BTR-3 and BTR-4 armored personnel carriers offered by Ukraine

Ukroboronprom, Ukraine's state-owned defence industry holding group, said on 24 January that it has been selected to supply the Indonesian Ministry of Defence (MoD) with the amphibious BTR-4 8x8 wheeled armoured personnel carrier (APC).

Ukroboronprom said the MoD's initial requirement is for five units and that a contract to secure the sale is expected to be signed during the first quarter of 2014. It will represent Ukraine's first military sale to Indonesia in nearly two decades.

IHS Jane's understands that the BTR-4s - developed and built by the Kharkov Morozov Machine Building Plant in Kharkov, Ukraine - are to be acquired by the Indonesian Marine Corps and are intended to augment and eventually replace fleets of refurbished BTR-50 tracked APCs that were procured from Ukraine in the 1990s.

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Indonesia selects Ukrainian BTRs, Russian BMPs - IHS Jane's 360

 

[Feanor]

The Indonesian Marines armoured vehicles inventory now consists of:
PT-76 (90mm upgrade), BTR-50, BMP-2, BTR-80, AMX-10, LVT-7 and BMP-3F. Know if looking on the official statement seems they will in the future make the inventory mostly of BMP-3F, and BTR-4. They seems want to retain AMX-10 but will replace it sometime in the future.

The inventory of BMP-2 and BTR-80 is quite interesting. Those (for Indonesian Marines standard) considered quite new with most procured on late 90's and early 2000'ish. There are no indication for more BMP-2 and procurement of BMP-3F clearly show that BMP-2 is on the way out, perhaps will be out in the same time with Modernised PT-76. What will be the replacement for those two ? Well that's why I speculated on more BMP-3F since there are clearly indications for that and also is more logical thing to do.

I'm not sure the BTR-80s need replacement at all. They could upgrade them, and fill the role they want for the BTR-4.

For BTR-50 replacement, that's is the BTR-4 come in. Yes the several article indicating BTR-50 will be replaced by BMP-3F other talk being replaced by BMP-4 while previously talked for additional BTR-80 as replacement. However for me this show no confirm move yet on the ultimate replacement program for BTR-50. I can speculate this for few indications:

There's no such thing as a BMP-4. Did you mean BMD-4? That would make no sense. It's a crappier version of the BMP-3, with air-droppability.

1. Ukroboronprom only confirm for 5 vehicle order from Indonesia of BTR-4. For me, indicated that Indonesian Marines still want to evaluate small amount of BTR-4 on their operational used before committed on large amount.

Just like Kazakhstan. Lets see what they find.

 

[Ananda]

There's no such thing as a BMP-4. Did you mean BMD-4? That would make no sense. It's a crappier version of the BMP-3, with air-droppability.
.

Typo error, should be BTR-4.
Anyway significant procurement of any wheeled amphibious armoured vehicles, will have to factor what's the development of Pindad amphibious wheeled vehicle. If Pindad failed to make decent amphibious Anoa or from any other version of their wheeled armoured vehicle design, then the Marines can get more leeway for significant procurement of foreign dedign wheeled
amphibious vehicles.

It also potentially on the table, that Ukraine also forwarding their BTR-4 design to Pindad. As the Naval Chief already put, that there was an MOU for further collaboration with Pindad on BMP-3F local manufacturing, which related to further procurement of BMP-3F in the future. This again show strong importance of any join manufacturing deal with Pindad or other local manufactures in order to secure long term significant procurement deal with Indonesian Armed Forces.

However rumours that circulate on local media and forum, and from what I heard from Pindad team, Pindad it self are not really impressed with Ukraine design and manufacturing quality. This show up after their team assessed Bulat and Oplot MBT.

Korea so far has shown stronger relationship with Pindad. I don't know how far the progress between Samsung Techwin and Pindad on LVT-7, but personally I still think possibility still there for LVT-7 in the end turn out to be the real replacement for BTR-50 within Indonesian Marines inventory.

As mentioned before, untill the ink already signed on the contract, any last minutes changes on the procurement can happen. Afterall, Indonesia Armed Forces is quite notorius on changing their procurement strategies. Heck, personally I really doubt there are solid long term strategies, since everything can change mid way.

 

[madokafc]

Actually, rosoboronexport doesn't selling BTR-80 series anymore they had putting it out of their catalogue for a while. And Marines doesn't quite comfortable with rear side door positions of BTR-80, they need back door IFV for fast and more safest employment for marines to embark, and for fire power they need at least 30X165 mm cal. rapid gun like the BVP-2 and BMP-3F had. So with low budget in their hand and minimum requirement like of capable to carrying at least 8 full equipped troops and had decent amphibious capability, armor capable to withstand .50 cal rounds, capability to carrying ATGM for additional firepower, had a rear and backdoor, BTR-4 is the only viable solutions for now.

For LVT-7A, marines seem interesting to adding more numbers of those vehicles but the Navy right now is doesn't have any budget to spare for additional amphibious vehicle like LVT-7A and although they has taken serious South Korean offer. Right now Indonesian Navy budget is quite at full hands for their projects, like PKR, LST, Oiler replenishment ships, tug boat, LCU's, ASW helos, MPA aircraft and so on.

 

[Ananda]

The way now the Marines procured only small number of BMP-2, BTR-80, and BTR-4, and LVT-7, for me show that they really has not reached their mind on which going to be final replacement for BTR-50. Not like for PT-76 which increasing likely being replaced by BMP-3F.

I got suspicion that they are now in the phase of operational trial out, and will decide when enough budget already available for relative substantial procurement phase like in BMP-3F case.

Then again, for armoured vehicle, more and more will be related to whoever party that can also reached agreeable arrangement and cooperation with Pindad. This move already seems got support for all political camps, which in turn will probably stick whoever win the next election.

 

[Feanor]

Actually, rosoboronexport doesn't selling BTR-80 series anymore they had putting it out of their catalogue for a while. And Marines doesn't quite comfortable with rear side door positions of BTR-80, they need back door IFV for fast and more safest employment for marines to embark, and for fire power they need at least 30X165 mm cal. rapid gun like the BVP-2 and BMP-3F had. So with low budget in their hand and minimum requirement like of capable to carrying at least 8 full equipped troops and had decent amphibious capability, armor capable to withstand .50 cal rounds, capability to carrying ATGM for additional firepower, had a rear and backdoor, BTR-4 is the only viable solutions for now.

Interesting. BTR-80As were sold to Venezuela fairly recently. Iirc there was info that Bangladesh was also getting BTR-80s. But either way BTR-82s aren't that different, and the A variant of both carries a 30mm autocannon. So the real issue would be protection, and the positioning of the doors. Though I really have to wonder if a BTR-4 serial vehicle would stand up to the protection requirements. Why not just use the BMP-3F for that role? The doors are in the rear, and it definitely survives a .50 cal. There's a variant of it called the BRM-3K, which has a 30mm turret instead of the complex Bakhcha.

For LVT-7A, marines seem interesting to adding more numbers of those vehicles but the Navy right now is doesn't have any budget to spare for additional amphibious vehicle like LVT-7A and although they has taken serious South Korean offer. Right now Indonesian Navy budget is quite at full hands for their projects, like PKR, LST, Oiler replenishment ships, tug boat, LCU's, ASW helos, MPA aircraft and so on.

Well the real question is why they have such a diverse fleet of vehicles that do very similar things.

 

[STURM]

Well the real question is why they have such a diverse fleet of vehicles that do very similar things.

If I'm not mistaken the LVT-7As were transferred from South Korea. I think that prior to that the intention was to increase the number of BMPs in service with Korps Marinir.

 

[Feanor]

If I'm not mistaken the LVT-7As were transferred from South Korea. I think that prior to that the intention was to increse the number of BMPs in servce with Korps Marinir.

Well sure but they don't seem to be in a hurry to retire their antiquated BTR-50s either. And they already operate the BTR-80, according to Ananda (it was news to me). Then they have the BMP-2 and BMP-3, and got some LVT-7As, and are now looking at a BTR-4? Basically all the roles can be filled by the BMP-3. It has less road mobility then the BTR series, but otherwise there seems little reason for such a diverse fleet, from different countries too.

In Russia there is a problem with diversity of chassis in the Land Forces, and Russia only uses indigenous vehicles. I can only imagine what nightmare this kind of fleet is for Indonesia.

 

[STURM]

Korps Marinir also has some PT-76s; a number of which were upgraded by Nimba, although this was never officially acknowledged by the Indonesian government. Standardisation/commonality is something that has eluded most South East Asian armies [Singapore is the exception], Thailand is a good example: they have M-113s, Type 85s, BTR-3s, M-48s, M-41s, M-60s, Stingrays, Type-59s [some have been converted into artifical reefs], Scorpions and now the Oplot which will reportedly replace the M-41s. Not sure if the Thais are still running their V-100/150s. One reason countries have managed to keep diverse AFV fleets running is that spares are mostly still available and local companies have long acquired the know how to refurbish these vehicles and find substitutes for parts which are no longer available.

Malaysia is just as bad with regards to standardisation/commonality; the AV-8 is intended to replace the Condor and Sibmas fleet but that will still leave the Adnan, MIFV, Scorpion, Stormer and PT-91M - if it's any consolation most of these vehicles perform different roles.

.

 

[Vegan-Zombie]

Well the real question is why they have such a diverse fleet of vehicles that do very similar things.

It stems from the 1998 US Embargo on the country. The Ministry of Defense has a habit of purchasing two vehicles of different origins of the same role, in order to ensure that the armed forces capabilities aren't hindered in the case that the country is embargoed by one supplier. Similar to why they're maintaining their fleet of Hinds, while also ordering new Apaches.

 

[Ananda]

Don't forgot AMX-10. According to Inventory data that I gather so far, it could be the most numerous armoured vehicle. The number of Marine inventory :
AMX-10 : 50 -80
PT-76 : 50 -70
BTR-50 : 50-60
BTR-3F: 54 (with the latest procurement),
BMP-2/BVP-2 : 30-40
BTR-80 : 10-15
LVT-7 : 10
BTR-4 : 5
PTS-M : 5-10

The above numbers I gather from various sources, so if other members got more precise number please fell free to correct it.
From those number, the inventory that officialy going to be put out are PT-76 and BTR-50. Seems BMP-3F going to replace PT-76, but for me what is not final yet is what going to be the final replacement for BTR-50.

If looking from old printed media in the 80's and 90's, it was mentioned that originally there were more than 100 PT-76 and around 150-200 BTR-50 procured by Indonesia for the Marines in the 60's from USSR. With current inventory of BTR-50 only left to 50-60, indicated along the time, AMX-10 and BMP/VP-2 already replacing some BTR-50.

The lattest oficial statement indicating that BTR-4 will be procured to replaced either PT-76 or BTR-50 (depends on articles). However with Ukroboron so far confirming only 5 order, for me indicating no firm program yet for BTR-4.

What madokafc mentioned of the Marines not really comfortable with BTR-80 access arrangement, already circulated for some time on local forum. For me, by only procured that small number of BTR-80, show that the Marines only evaluating BTR-80. But then again those BTR-80 already being send to International assignment under UN flag by Indonesian contingent.

It could be the Marines find some strong factor of BTR-80 but did not like the access arrangement, which come to BTR-4 that share several BTR-80 qualities but with more preferable (for the Marines) access arrangement. They perhaps need amphibious wheeled IFV, which perhaps explain why not all BTR-3F fleet for replacing BTR-50.

LVT-7 is another factor in here. It's popular and preferable for the Marines (which shown on the frequency of usage in the operational and exercise assignment). According to official statement in 2012, there should be 35 LVT-7 ex ROK Marines will be given to Indonesian Marines. So far only 10, which other 25 officialy still waiting US agreement for transferring to Indonesia. However I more suspected it is tied up to further deal with Samsung Techwin on more LVT-7 procurement. Thus LVT-7 as I mentioned before can be turn out to be more numerous than other vehicle save BMP-3F especially if Indonesian mindef or Pindad can get agreeable arrangement with Samsung Techwin.

Then for AMX-10, it's officialy will be upgraded, but no secret that the Marines did not fondly accepting AMX-10 to begin with in the 90's. It's still relative young age for Indonesian Marines standard, however I got suspicion that it will be replaced soon, if they can get enough budget for something else.

Overall, the Marines seems have plan to standardize their vehicle to 3-4 types, but which one will be, that's the questions.

 

[Feanor]

It stems from the 1998 US Embargo on the country. The Ministry of Defense has a habit of purchasing two vehicles of different origins of the same role, in order to ensure that the armed forces capabilities aren't hindered in the case that the country is embargoed by one supplier. Similar to why they're maintaining their fleet of Hinds, while also ordering new Apaches.

Wouldn't a better idea be a single large buy, with high percentage ToT, and fully localized maintenance? I'm sure Russia would be willing to do it for the BTR-80s or the BMP-3s, if the contract was for say 400-500 vehicles.

 

[Ananda]

Wouldn't a better idea be a single large buy, with high percentage ToT, and fully localized maintenance? I'm sure Russia would be willing to do it for the BTR-80s or the BMP-3s, if the contract was for say 400-500 vehicles.

From the link in my post (558), sems that's what the plan for BMP-3. The minister in the link stated the plan is to have considerable ToT for weapon and system development with Pindad. Further procurement of BMP-3 seems link to that agreement.