The Indonesian Army

[Ananda]

Well, with no external enemies at this moment, and Internal insurgance presently only low yield armed insurgance in Papua (which even Anoa is more than enough), all those new equipment has danger become parade equipment.

Those UN engagement in Middle East and Africa, being used as proving ground on equipments especially land based ones. Indonesia will not gping to be involved in coalition engagement, UN ones is the only potential overseas engagement Indonesian forces going to participate.

However, those Leo 2 procured mostly to give Indonesian Army experience and exposure on MBT operation. Pindad just finish the prototype on upgraded AMX-13, with new electronics, sensors, engine and 105 mm gun. The Mindef already put low amount (23) of upgraded AMX-13. Eventhough the upgraded program has been done before, but from around 400 AMX-13 in the inventory most of them still retain original 76 mm gun.

Point is, between those upgrade program of AMX-13 (not sure how many will be upgraded, but I do believe much short than 400 of original AMX-13), and also the Scorpion, and plan of PINDAD Medium Tank, the MBT like Leo 2 will not going to be replacing all those light tanks (AMX-13, Scorpion, PT-76), that used and still in the Inventory.

Java it self is not only the most developed part of the country (thus also has most developed infrastucture), but with 150+ mio inhabitants, made the island increasingly like a continues cities networks especially on the northern part of the Island. Thus MBT like Leo 2 continue fit well in Java operation. The image of 'jungle and sub par infrastucture' Indonesia is on outside Java. For that Light Tanks still fits and that's why, they are also being moved from Java.

The Army seems already sees that for most part of Indonesia, they do not want 60 ton MBT, but they also do not want to stick with less than 15 ton Light Tanks in the future. That's why pindad looking for 30+ ton medium tanks. If the projects workable, then the future of Indonesian Cavalry are with those Medium Tanks. MBT still be part of the inventory and will stay for good but only make a quarter of next overall inventory at best, I believe.

 

[Ananda]

AMX-13 Retrofit Pindad itu Mulai Berjalan

The prototype of retrofitted AMX-13, from ARC website. From media and local forum, PINDAD stated that the retrofitted increased the length of the hull by 20 cm to fit the new Turbodiesel 400 bhp from Navistar. This change the look of front hull. Also the retrofitted involved changing the suspension arm, transmission, whelltracked, adding new stabilizer on the turret, modification of the turret it self, ammo rack, fire control system, night vission, and other sensors.

This off course not the first time Indonesian Army try to modified the venerable AMX-13, bellow is the comparison of Pindad prototype on the left, in the middle is the prototype of earlier attempt by the Army on modification AMX-13, and on the right is prototype of NIMDA modification.

AMX-13 , will be used by the Army as battle field support role, and not on traditional Tank role, which given to MBT. In sense I do believe what they have in mind is support for the Mechanised Infantry battalions that the Army now try to change on some of their existing infantry battalions.

 

[DavidDCM]

Turret says SK105 Kürassier if you ask me

 

[Ananda]

Well SK105 turret also based on AMX-13 turret isn't it ? I think there is limitations on what you can modified with AMX-13 based turret, and SK105 is already reached one of the pinnacle on AMX-13 based turret anyway

 

[DavidDCM]

Yes, I'm not saying it is bad or anything. I wanted to point out that I am halfway sure Pindad bought an actual SK105 turret and installed it on their revamped AMX-13 hull.

 

[Ananda]

Yes, it's probable since SK105 turret is one of the pinnacle on AMX-13 based turet can be. Found in local forum, the basic plan for PINDAD modification scope. It's show potential choice of modification works, parts and potential partner. The engine choice on prototype is from Navistar, the fire control being say come from Belgium.

In short Pindad seems looking for any potential (for budget) on existing off the shelve available in the Market which suitable for AMX-13 upgrade. No information yet on whose Partner that Pindad eventually choses for turret job, so SK105 as model for turret job entirely possible.

 

[tonnyc]

I do question the wisdom on spending money and time on this first instead of putting RCWS of say, 30mm caliber, on both this and the Anoa. It would be a cheaper, faster, and more useful upgrade.

 

[Ananda]

I do question the wisdom on spending money and time on this first instead of putting RCWS of say, 30mm caliber, on both this and the Anoa. It would be a cheaper, faster, and more useful upgrade.

In my oppinion:

1. They need the 105 mm gun. Mobile mechanised infrantry, supporting by 105 mm AMX-13. Not as traditional Tank role, but more to supporting fast reaction mobile infrantry movement.

2. Providing Pindad with the Job, until the Government (more as the next Administration), can put enough budget on supporting Pindad for their Medium Tank Project.

23 (up to 53) upgraded AMX-13 job, can sustain Pindad for at least a year more, with exposures Job on tracked vehicle. It's not going to be the most effective Tank even after the upgrade. And TNI seems know that this upgrade will only provide them with Battle Support vehicles, not Tanks in more traditional Tank role. They already has Leo 2 for that.

 

[tonnyc]

In my oppinion:
1. They need the 105 mm gun. Mobile mechanised infrantry, supporting by 105 mm AMX-13. Not as traditional Tank role, but more to supporting fast reaction mobile infantry movement.

2. Providing Pindad with the Job, until the Government (more as the next Administration), can put enough budget on supporting Pindad for their Medium Tank Project.

23 (up to 53) upgraded AMX-13 job, can sustain Pindad for at least a year more, with exposures Job on tracked vehicle. It's not going to be the most effective Tank even after the upgrade. And TNI seems know that this upgrade will only provide them with Battle Support vehicles, not Tanks in more traditional Tank role. They already has Leo 2 for that.

1. An IFV fitted with 40mm mortars and autocannons (e.g., 30mm ) will basically plow through anything that is not an MBT or a purpose-built bunker. For those, there are MBTs.
2. Giving Pindad something to do so they can retain their skilled workers can easily be done by purchasing wheeled APCs (Anoa) or developing an IFV or developing a tracked APC. Why is the need for 105 mm fire support AMX more critical than the need for more APCs?

I am not saying that you are incorrect in guessing the reasoning behind the AMX decision. What I am questioning is this focus toward big guns while neglecting the need to mechanize the current infantry battalions. When news of this project first surfaced last year, I estimated that TNI-AD has 80 non-mechanized infantry battalions. Not sure whether they are motorized or not (as in, has their trucks and other vehicles organically attached to the battalion instead of being loaned from HQ). The idea that light tank is a more pressing need that APCs and IFVs boggles me.

 

[Ananda]

I am not saying that you are incorrect in guessing the reasoning behind the AMX decision. What I am questioning is this focus toward big guns while neglecting the need to mechanize the current infantry battalions. When news of this project first surfaced last year, I estimated that TNI-AD has 80 non-mechanized infantry battalions. Not sure whether they are motorized or not (as in, has their trucks and other vehicles organically attached to the battalion instead of being loaned from HQ). The idea that light tank is a more pressing need that APCs and IFVs boggles me.

Compromise

They will get 50 or perhaps latter on can be added up to 80 or more Marder. It's definitely not the best IFV in the market right now, but it's much better than any APC (AMX-VCI, BTR-50) they used to operate. Even better than Alvis Stormer. The German will provide it cheap, and it's open for further modification. Pindad in future can involved with upgrading job on Marder or developing IFV design themselves (isn't that what they aimed on Medium Tank). But it will be need much more budget than this AMX-13 job.

Anoa still being ordered. So in sense they are not neglecting the need for APC and IFV. However there are many traditionalist thingking in the Army or ex Army with influence in the Mindef and Parliament that still want relative big gun on light tank chasis. Those are the traditionalist that did not like the Army having MBT, and leaning on old thingking of small maneuverable light tanks with big guns for Indonesian environment.

The Army in my believe need to compromise, and they seems believe upgrading 30-50 AMX-13, plus keep say up to 100 AMX-13 (both Pindad and*Nimda upgraded ones) will satisfied those traditionalist in such they will not opposed much for MBT or 30 ton IFV. Afterall this is the guys that still clinging on their believe that the Army should only operated less that 20 tons vehicles.

It will be different matter, if the Army put much budget to upgrading and maintained much of their 300+ AMX-13 in current inventory with this program. In such they totally sacrificing the need for more APC and IFV. So far it does not seem that way though.

Besides, for Indonesian situation, those 105mm AMX-13 still useful on accompanying Anoa, Stormer, or even Marder on mobile mechanized infrantry assignment. The new 400 bhp+ engine with modification on tracked suspension and other automotive improvement, I believe can provide better handling and speed to make those old AMX-13 keep up with those APC and IFV.

 

[tonnyc]

That is pretty much is what I concluded myself, Ananda. It's something to mollify the traditionalists and show that yeah, they're being listened to and no, they are not being ignored.

I still worry about the "medium tank" program though. So far, what I have seen from publicly available data indicates that there is no provision for carrying infantry. It is, first and foremost, a light tank or possibly a tank destroyer. This does not mean that it can't be adapted into an APC/IFV later, but it would have been better if the design was made with an eye toward a possible APC version from the beginning. I note that there doesn't to be enough room in the chassis for 11 people (commander, driver, gunner, plus 8 infantrymen) nor is there provision for easy exit of the infantrymen.

The design is of course not final, and FNSS input with their experience on ACV-S may change things drastically, so we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[koxinga]

To be honest, I thought the acquisition of the Tarantula 6x6 was to fill the fire support role. But this role seems to have many different options. If the intention was to support Pindad and also to mollify the traditionalists as so suggested, another option could have been to order the FSV version of the Anoa.

My own guess is the army prefers a lighter tracked platform to a wheeled platform for this role.

 

[DavidDCM]

2. Giving Pindad something to do so they can retain their skilled workers can easily be done by purchasing wheeled APCs (Anoa) or developing an IFV or developing a tracked APC. Why is the need for 105 mm fire support AMX more critical than the need for more APCs?

Possibly the AMX-13 is simply in dire need of overhaul and thus they combine it with a slight retrofit. The influx of several hundred Anoas since 2009 may have quenched the most urgent thirst for wheeled vehicles, and now they apply priority to keeping their old tracks running.

AMX-13 is and will be the mainstay of the army, despite purchase of Leopard 2 or shift of Scorpions from Kostrad to the Kodams. Most tracked cavalry units will remain equipped with AMX-13 and AMX VCI for years to come. If the number of servicable vehicles sinks below a certain degree, then the army would effectively cease to have a tracked vehicle fleet except for a few Java-centred prime units.

 

[madokafc]

In my oppinion:

1. They need the 105 mm gun. Mobile mechanised infrantry, supporting by 105 mm AMX-13. Not as traditional Tank role, but more to supporting fast reaction mobile infrantry movement.

2. Providing Pindad with the Job, until the Government (more as the next Administration), can put enough budget on supporting Pindad for their Medium Tank Project.

23 (up to 53) upgraded AMX-13 job, can sustain Pindad for at least a year more, with exposures Job on tracked vehicle. It's not going to be the most effective Tank even after the upgrade. And TNI seems know that this upgrade will only provide them with Battle Support vehicles, not Tanks in more traditional Tank role. They already has Leo 2 for that.

1. A big if as far as i can see, about their previous procurement in Tarantula, they put 90 mm Cockeril cannon instead 105 mm cannon. But i expect a new kind of 8x8 or 6x6 platform armed with 105 mm caliber cannon in a near future.
2. DoD can giving Pindad more job by ordering more Anoa instead
3. How about their projected forces about 400 Leo2's, the current order number is very insufficient compared to what they need to equip Kostrad with two cavalry brigade

 

[Ananda]

The 400 Leo 2, for me is the very big "if". Getting 100 Leo 2, already involve a lot of political 'bru ha ha', imagine on getting 400. Besides is there still available 300 second hand Leo 2 in the Market for Indonesia ? From what I gather, the ex Dutch Leo 2 will be moved to Canada, and German inventory of 'surplus' Leo 2, I don't think available in that number anymore. For that, getting to that 400 (from current 100) will involve procurement of newly build Leo 2, which will be much more expensive, which in the end will raise much more debate on Parliament.

With Political support on present Parliament for 60 ton MBT is precarious, imagine on next Parliament with present opposition set on getting much bigger portion on the seat. I personally agree with David, AMX-13 days as main tracked vehicles in the Army still someway to go. The best option on replacing them is not on getting more MBT, but on whatever come out with Pindad medium tank program 'or' getting additional Marder (IFV) which still available much on German Army inventory.

I don't know if you have more information on the Marder with Pindad. From what I gather, it's 'rumoured' the promised Tech Transfer for Pindad is not on Leo 2, but on Marder. Then if this true, with Pindad Medium Tank project, the Marder based IFV can be the main contender on replacing AMX-13 (both the Light Tank and VCI).
In sense 30+ ton Tracked Vehicle (whether this based on Pindad program or based on Marder), in my oppinion more realistically be the replacement for the AMX family with TNI-AD. However, getting to there is Medium Term objective at best, and for that the AMX-13 modernisation/upgrade job can still be Justifiable for present condition.

 

[Volkodav]

Probably a silly question but why does Indonesia need so many tanks any way? Australia has 59 Abrams, Singapore 96 Leo 2s, Malaysia 48 PT-91M, only Thailand with their older less capable M-60 and M-48 MBTs and Cambodia with their even more out of date T54/55 tanks out number Indonesia's armoured forces. To be honest your Apaches once delivered will provide you with an over match for any neighbour bar Singapore, they could kill Australia's entire armoured regiment in a single sortie 8 helicopters with 16 hellfire each for 59 tanks and no MANPADS or SPAAG, no match there.

 

[Ananda]

Probably a silly question but why does Indonesia need so many tanks any way? Australia has 59 Abrams, Singapore 96 Leo 2s, Malaysia 48 PT-91M, only Thailand with their older less capable M-60 and M-48 MBTs and Cambodia with their even more out of date T54/55 tanks out number Indonesia's armoured forces. To be honest your Apaches once delivered will provide you with an over match for any neighbour bar Singapore, they could kill Australia's entire armoured regiment in a single sortie 8 helicopters with 16 hellfire each for 59 tanks and no MANPADS or SPAAG, no match there.

Well it's not a silly question. It's a question that still debated in Indonesia. How much Tank Indonesian Army need ? If talking Tank, well in my opinion this Leo 2 is the first real Tank (in traditional Tank warfare role) that Indonesia has. Since the independence, the role of Tank in Indonesia filled by light tanks, from M3 Stuart, AMX-13, Scorpion, and the Marines PT-76, AMX-10 and present BTR-3. All those Light Tanks even in their prime time, I believe aimed to do what Light Tanks role, support mobile infantry operation, hit and run tactics, and not intended for all out Tank warfare.

In such the Indonesian Army Tank doctrine, seems aim on that. Battle Support function (that's what the Army officially says). The infantry doctrine now aimed for mobile infantry movement, for faster reaction forces, with Light Tanks stand as support role. Leo 2 is aimed on Traditional MBT role, in which for that Indonesian Army still need much to learn. That's why the Leo 2 procured, so to enable the Army at last learn the proper Tank battle management.

So despite 300-500 Light Tanks in the inventory (the numbers vary based on how many AMX-13 that's still operational capable), Indonesian Army on Traditional Tank doctrine still a novice. That's why, I do believe those Light Tanks when eventually replaced, be with 30+ton IFV/Medium Tanks and not MBT. MBT that being procured in my opinion will not be replacing those Light Tanks. Simply because the present TNI-AD doctrine did not call for large MBT conducting traditional tank warfare. I might be wrong, but seems it's what I see. So your question in fact related to basic 'soul' doctrine on TNI-AD armoured warfare, which is now seems still debated.

As for Apache, the Army already stated that those attack helicopters will be mostly station on Natuna facing South China Sea. So not facing armoured advisarry.

 

[koxinga]

Just to clarify, my understanding of the 400/3XX + tanks does not refer to Leopard 2 or MBT. Rather it is just an overall planning number, which can be and is supposed to be met by a combination of Medium Tank and Leopard 2. There does not seem to be further plans for additional acquisitions and the possibility appears low for now.

The ex-Dutch Leopard 2A6 would be heading to Finland, not Canada.

 

[Volkodav]

Thanks for that.

The Australian doctrine, although its goes into shock effect and concentration of armour etc. is mainly one of MBTs save the lives of the Infantry they support and as such IMO will most likely be deployed (if ever) in Squadron and Troop levels in support of Infantry. I imagine Indonesia has or will adopt a similar doctrine with tanks being deployed in support of Infantry, preventing them from being pinned down and suffering excessive casualties to obstacles and defences that a tank could easily overcome.

 

[tonnyc]

Probably a silly question but why does Indonesia need so many tanks any way?

My best guess is that the Indonesian Army would like to (eventually) be able to field two armored battalions on each major island.

Currently the Indonesian Navy does not have the numbers nor the weight to safeguard the Indonesian waters. It is generally assumed that any OPFOR will be able to land an invasion force (which is assumed to have MBTs) into an Indonesian island(s) of their choice. The current army strategy is for local forces to tie the enemy forces with delaying actions while the strategic reserves (which has the MBTs) mobilize. Then the Indonesian Navy would transport the strategic reserve force into the contested island, whereupon the local forces and the strategic reserve force will work together to defeat the OPFOR.

And right there you can see the problems. First the Army finds it galling to have to allow the OPFOR to occupy territory for significant lengths of time. Then the Army dislike having to depend on the Navy. Last, there is concern that at present the Navy and Air Force are not strong enough to be able to guarantee a safe passage. Thus the Army would much prefer that each major island have a force strong enough to defeat an invading force on its own.

Political reality suggests that it's unlikely the Army will get its wish though. See previous posts.