Saudi considers T-95 MBTs?

Izzy1

Banned Member
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  • #141
A light formation (like the mentioned stryker brigades) cannot hope to go head on against a heavy formation (Lets take an armored BCT) without getting mauled.
Totally agree with you Waylander, a lighter formation has no hope against heavy armour.

But, even with just one of the Mechanised Brigades re-roled to a light formation, RSLF would still have three heavy Armour Brigades and four Mechanised Brigades available to it. I sincerely believe that this is more than enough. Further, the only real regional armour threat is Israel and I can't see Tel Aviv and Riyadh facing off anytime soon.

In my opinion, what the RSLF does need, are more rapidly deployable armour formations that can cope with the more likely asymmetric threats that currently lie just across Saudi's border. Obviously there is Iraq to the north with its problems, but also there are growing social tensions in Bahrain and Kuwait. In the Yemen, an increasingly brutal insurgency is underway that the Government there claims is being stoked by an 'outside power'.

If the need for intervention ever came, apparently it would take weeks to move the heavier Brigades to these potential hotspots. This despite most units already being based close to the border within the Military Cities - which themselves are part of the problem, Ken Pollack describes as a modern 'maginot line' that has created a static mentality within the RSLF. This may have been effective in the wake of the 1991 Gulf War, but times and threats have now changed.

Thus my belief that we need to rethink the RSLF's force structure.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I agree that with the fall of Iraq the armor threat to SA has been significantly reduced.

The question is if SA is willing to deploy their forces outside its borders.
If yes a light formation could really be usefull.

I didn't argue against light formations in general my concerns are the already mentioned ones about the political aims of SA and how it intends to use its forces.

As fast deployable intervention forces in a more assymetric battlespace, yes.
When focussing on homeland defense, no.
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
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  • #143
How much reliance does Egyptian military personnel play in Saudi Arabia`s military structure, could the M1A2s be for them to man seeings how they operate the M1A1. Also is it possible that Saudi Arabia will purchase T-90`s for Algeria to help them out, If I am really off base with this please let me know.
There are Egyptian advisors attached to the Saudi military and Cairo did send a very large contribution to Operation Desert Shield/Storm in the 1991 Gulf War. Despite this however, there is a historic rivalry between both militaries and the number of advisors I believe is very limited (between 1962 and 1967, Saudi and Egyptian forces were sporadically engaging each other during the Yemen Civil War as both nations supported opposing sides). As for Egyptians manning M1A2s, well who knows, maybe in an emergency they can come over and man the 200+ we have here in storage!

Saudi funding Algerian arms procurement is always possible, its a proven way of Riyadh influencing fellow Arab nations to support Saudi foreign policy initiatives as well as being good Muslim duty. There is quite a history of Riyadh funding other Arab nations arms procurement.
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
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  • #144
The question is if SA is willing to deploy their forces outside its borders.
Respect your views as always Waylander, I honestly hope Saudi never has to cross its borders to protect its interests. Unfortunately, the willingness may be forced by events in the region.
 

SaudiArabian

New Member
Heat management has nothing to do with a vehicle being heavy or light.
you are maybe true , i am unsure of any heat problems with the American AFV's during the invasion of Iraq , but we are sure of the damage sustained by the M1A2's due to heat

I agree on the cost issue but I thought that budget restrictions are a minor problem in Saudi Arabia.
actually its a major issue for several reasons

most of the budget is spent on salaries and on development because the ministry of defense and aviation (MODA) itself spends alot on healthcare and advanced education (higher dgrees) for the military personnel & their families . it also spends alot on infrastructure through building new military bases , providing free houses or apartments (<< untill the personnel retires or resigns) and free gas


A light formation (like the mentioned stryker brigades) cannot hope to go head on against a heavy formation (Lets take an armored BCT) without getting mauled.
i wasn't talking about an AFV with a 20 mm turret gun , because if that was the case then surely it will be mauled

but an advanced fast AFV equipped with excellent anti-armor missiles with a range that is more than the range of the enemy's MBT gun then the resluts can be different and the light brigade may win

the better strategy wins at the end , but this all is only a theory


How much reliance does Egyptian military personnel play in Saudi Arabia`s military structure
i have never see any Egyptian personnel in any military branch in the Kingdom


could the M1A2s be for them to man seeings how they operate the M1A1
the RSLF and SANG operate thousands of AFV's and MBT's , what would make 200 M1A2's in storage acording to Prince Khalid bin Sultan website ? .. further more , why would Saudi Arabia upgrade them and even buy more Abrams MBT's ?

the answer is that there is no crew shortages (<< i haven't seen in his website any mentioning of any shortages in that aspect) but i believe that its been kept in storage due to its high maintenance cost to reduce the military spending


Also is it possible that Saudi Arabia will purchase T-90`s for Algeria to help them out, If I am really off base with this please let me know.
recently i was informed that the King has provided a loan for Morroco to fund the Rafale purchase , but never heard anything about any purchase of T-90's for Algeria

In the Yemen, an increasingly brutal insurgency is underway that the Government there claims is being stoked by an 'outside power'.
the Yemeni government officially accused Libya and Iran for it
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I understand that SA might be forced to intervene in neighbouring countries especially in Iraq when the US forces go home and leave behind a burning country shaken by civil war.

For such a deployment a light formation could be usefull and so I totally agree with you. :)

I just tried to argue against the idea that light formations might be better suited for SA when it comes to war on its home soil.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There are Egyptian advisors attached to the Saudi military and Cairo did send a very large contribution to Operation Desert Shield/Storm in the 1991 Gulf War. Despite this however, there is a historic rivalry between both militaries and the number of advisors I believe is very limited (between 1962 and 1967, Saudi and Egyptian forces were sporadically engaging each other during the Yemen Civil War as both nations supported opposing sides). As for Egyptians manning M1A2s, well who knows, maybe in an emergency they can come over and man the 200+ we have here in storage!

Saudi funding Algerian arms procurement is always possible, its a proven way of Riyadh influencing fellow Arab nations to support Saudi foreign policy initiatives as well as being good Muslim duty. There is quite a history of Riyadh funding other Arab nations arms procurement.
Thank you for your input, hopefully you will never have to use them against a hostile force. But as Waylander said because of our military occupation of Iraq we have made a mess of things over there.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
you are maybe true , i am unsure of any heat problems with the American AFV's during the invasion of Iraq , but we are sure of the damage sustained by the M1A2's due to heat



actually its a major issue for several reasons

most of the budget is spent on salaries and on development because the ministry of defense and aviation (MODA) itself spends alot on healthcare and advanced education (higher dgrees) for the military personnel & their families . it also spends alot on infrastructure through building new military bases , providing free houses or apartments (<< untill the personnel retires or resigns) and free gas




i wasn't talking about an AFV with a 20 mm turret gun , because if that was the case then surely it will be mauled

but an advanced fast AFV equipped with excellent anti-armor missiles with a range that is more than the range of the enemy's MBT gun then the resluts can be different and the light brigade may win

the better strategy wins at the end , but this all is only a theory




i have never see any Egyptian personnel in any military branch in the Kingdom




the RSLF and SANG operate thousands of AFV's and MBT's , what would make 200 M1A2's in storage acording to Prince Khalid bin Sultan website ? .. further more , why would Saudi Arabia upgrade them and even buy more Abrams MBT's ?

the answer is that there is no crew shortages (<< i haven't seen in his website any mentioning of any shortages in that aspect) but i believe that its been kept in storage due to its high maintenance cost to reduce the military spending




recently i was informed that the King has provided a loan for Morroco to fund the Rafale purchase , but never heard anything about any purchase of T-90's for Algeria



the Yemeni government officially accused Libya and Iran for it
Thank you for your input.
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #149
Thank you for your input, hopefully you will never have to use them against a hostile force. But as Waylander said because of our military occupation of Iraq we have made a mess of things over there.
Inshalla (God willing).

However, I do get a bit frustrated by talk of further MBT purchases by the RSLF or SANG - especially platforms like Al Khalid and T-90 that would only further complicate the logistical problems here. Lets be realistic and honest here and I do apologise to our Pakistani Brothers - but Saudi always tries to buy the best, and that is Western/NATO kit.

A few members here seem to think we have a 'religo-military' obligation to buy their kit and get angry when we don't. Yet I don't see them buying any Al Fahd APCs from us...
 

extern

New Member
Only crazy can believe Russia will ever agree to buy super-secret T-95 for Wahhabi entity. Even about T-90 I'm not sure, whether the rumors about its test in SA have any basis. Did somebody ever hear about any Russian military export to SA? With Pakistan Russia has at least two Mi-17 deals and RD-93 engines for Thunder fighter. With SA it has nothing. So, all this story is sucked from a finger IMHO.
 

Ares

New Member
Russia sells many of its arms to various countries around the world. If Algeria , North Korea and various other countries obtained the T-90 not to mention Irans purchases of high tech weaponry such as the TOR-M1 etc... then whos to say that Russia wont sell to Saudi Arabia some of their finest.
 

Chrom

New Member
Only crazy can believe Russia will ever agree to buy super-secret T-95 for Wahhabi entity. Even about T-90 I'm not sure, whether the rumors about its test in SA have any basis. Did somebody ever hear about any Russian military export to SA? With Pakistan Russia has at least two Mi-17 deals and RD-93 engines for Thunder fighter. With SA it has nothing. So, all this story is sucked from a finger IMHO.
There would be absolutely zero problem in selling T-90. It is not secret. I'm also fairly sure what Russia would sell T-95 (if that thing ever exsisted). There are no Russian weapons in SA NOT becouse Russia doesnt sell it, but rather becouse SA dont buy it.
P.S. Forget already about T-95. It is like Mig 1.44. One of prototype proposals what was never meant to go in production.
There will be NO new tank in next 5 years. Nope. No need for it at all for Russia.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Russia sells many of its arms to various countries around the world. If Algeria , North Korea and various other countries obtained the T-90 not to mention Irans purchases of high tech weaponry such as the TOR-M1 etc... then whos to say that Russia wont sell to Saudi Arabia some of their finest.
Are you stating that North Korea has T-90 MBT`s in their inventory or that they have the ability to approach Russia for purchasing.
 

Chrom

New Member
T-95 is the Object 195 and will be also used for coalition-sv twin msta-s.
It is not certain. Besides, the design of T-95 will be changed many times before it even go to production. Only 1 thing we can be sure - twin-barrel Koalitcia will be based on future MBT chassis.
 

Ares

New Member
Well from the reports it seems the only thing that is preventing the T-95 from getting off the ground is additional financing.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well it seems that they purchased one single T-90S in 2001. They then reverse engineered it to make the M-2002.

It was supposed to appear at the recent military parade but I dont think it was shown off there.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/m-2002.htm
They have a few proto types and that is about it, they recieved some T-72 knock off kits in the mid eighties from Russia and it was rumored that they were supposed to get around 100 of these who`s sole purpose was to protect Kim Ill Sung.
 

Ares

New Member
well considering the North Koreans have ERA (as seen on the chonmaho) and that the T-90S evolved from the T-72BM it is very well possible that they have already a small amount of pre-production or production M-2002's.
 

SaudiArabian

New Member
its a mistake to say that there are no Russian weapons in Saudi Arabia :)

there are already light arms of Russian origin been used in the Saudi military
(the well-known Klashinkov rifles ; the most popular weapon in the Saudi society)





Saudi-Russian relations improved in 2003 by King Abdullah visit to Moscow (when he was a crown prince)

i've heard of few Russian military vehicles been sold to the Saudi Ministry of Interior affairs in 2003

i hope if someone tells me whats the name of the vehicle in the following picture because i could not identify it and thought it might be Russian

http://saudiarabians.googlepages.com/51906406.jpg
 
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