Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

[John Fedup]

Over the least several years, quite a few carrier designs have been shown. It is unlikely any design will be built. Russia doesn’t have the money to build or operate a carrier. The actual need for a carrier is questionable as well, especially for the Baltic and Black seas.

 

[CheeZe]

Over the least several years, quite a few carrier designs have been shown. It is unlikely any design will be built. Russia doesn’t have the money to build or operate a carrier. The actual need for a carrier is questionable as well, especially for the Baltic and Black seas.

Fair enough - I haven't been keeping up with Russian defence news for the past couple years. Stumbled onto the article while reading a different one.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

New Russian carrier concept has been revealed.
Russia unveils new aircraft carrier design - Naval News

Looks like they're going to be smaller ships, likely for regional power projection, rather than supercarriers for global power projection. My current guess is that they're going to build a pair at least. One for the Baltic and one for the Black Sea.

Although these are just concepts, the stealthy design is really nice.
The Russian Navy normally put the largest and most important vessels in the Northern and Pacific Fleet. Personally i dont think new aircraft carriers will serve the Baltic and Black Sea Fleet, specially not the Baltic. Being smaller than the current Admiral Kuznetsov, doesnt mean the new design is less ocean-going.

 

[ngatimozart]

New Russian carrier concept has been revealed.
Russia unveils new aircraft carrier design - Naval News

Looks like they're going to be smaller ships, likely for regional power projection, rather than supercarriers for global power projection. My current guess is that they're going to build a pair at least. One for the Baltic and one for the Black Sea.

So it looks like it will be CATOBAR but for some reason they haven't gone with an angled flight deck for recovery. That will slow down their cycle rate somewhat. But it's very early days so we'll just have to wait and see what final design eventuates.

 

[ngatimozart]

Over the least several years, quite a few carrier designs have been shown. It is unlikely any design will be built. Russia doesn’t have the money to build or operate a carrier. The actual need for a carrier is questionable as well, especially for the Baltic and Black seas.

Maybe but Northern and Pacific Fleets would certainly utilise carriers. The Northern fleet could always cycle a CBG though the Mediterranean to Tarsus in Syria. Plus they will eventually be able to sail one across the top of Russia from Murmansk to Vladivostok, and across the top of Canada and Alaska year round.

 

[John Fedup]

Given the size of their icebreaker fleet along with new ones arriving soon, Russia could probably operate a carrier up in the Arctic now. Seriously though, why bother given their financial situation? Russia’s large landmass allows airbases that can reach most areas of concern with the exception of the some of Mediterranean Sea. They also have decent subs and some impressive land/naval missiles. Most of the Pacific will be an eventual US-China playground.

 

[SolarWind]

Russians would bankrupt their country again if they tried to build an open ocean fleet with aircraft carriers. They have too many domestic problems that they would do well to concentrate on. They have too few real interests across the oceans that are worth bankrupting their country. And what are carriers for anyway if not for bragging rights?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

On 30 January a new Project 21631 Buyan-M corvette will be added to Russia’s Black Sea Fleet. It will be the Graivoron, equipped with the Kalibr-NK universal missile complex, Russian Defense Ministry announced Friday.

This will be the fourth Project 21631 for the Black Sea Fleet and the 9th built in total, three more are under construction.

It seems that after the 3 Project 21630 Buyan and 12 Project 21631 Buyan-M, the only corvettes under construction are from the Project 22800 Karakurt-design.

New Kalibr-armed ship to join Russia’s Black Sea Fleet on January 30

The event will be attended by the Black Sea Fleet command

tass.com

I also found this, its a nice artist impression of Project 09851.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1353311485687197698

I knew about the existence of Project 09852, which is a modified and lengthened 949A, but this 09851 seems to be a shortened 955. Both projects are still surrounded by a mist of mystery.

 

[ngatimozart]

Russians would bankrupt their country again if they tried to build an open ocean fleet with aircraft carriers. They have too many domestic problems that they would do well to concentrate on. They have too few real interests across the oceans that are worth bankrupting their country.

That is true, but with Putin you don't know. He has that macho image thing and short mans syndrome.
And what are carriers for anyway if not for bragging rights?
[/QUOTE]
Are you for real? Technically they offer sea control. However in some cases yes they can be seen as a symbol of the aforementioned short mans syndrome.

 

[Feanor]

I think much has been made of this new design. I don't think we should pay any attention to it. Russian design bureaus have shown multiple aircraft carrier designs, with varying degrees of realism. I think Russia can certainly, in principle, afford an aircraft carrier (countries with smaller budgets have them) but I think the industrial obstacles are the biggest ones. Russia could certainly use aircraft carriers with considerable effect but to do that they would need a doctrine that clearly states what the VMF is actually setting out to do. Currently it's quite murky.

 

[Feanor]

On 30 January a new Project 21631 Buyan-M corvette will be added to Russia’s Black Sea Fleet. It will be the Graivoron, equipped with the Kalibr-NK universal missile complex, Russian Defense Ministry announced Friday.

This will be the fourth Project 21631 for the Black Sea Fleet and the 9th built in total, three more are under construction.

It seems that after the 3 Project 21630 Buyan and 12 Project 21631 Buyan-M, the only corvettes under construction are from the Project 22800 Karakurt-design.

These are not corvettes, at least in the multi-role sense. These are all small missile ships. Russia does have corvettes, namely the project 20380/20385 series, and their production is only picking up.

 

[SolarWind]

Are you for real? Technically they offer sea control. However in some cases yes they can be seen as a symbol of the aforementioned short mans syndrome.

With nearly a dozen carrier battle groups, you can control seas, project power, etc. With one or two, it's not as much that you can control. For Russians in particular, with their main idea of carrier aircraft as anti-air defense (PVO) beyond the range of their navalized S-300s and S-400s, the safest bet would be to develop STOVL aircraft for use off of their helicopter carriers that are supposedly under construction.

 

[RoyZZConnor]

Russians would bankrupt their country again if they tried to build an open ocean fleet with aircraft carriers. They have too many domestic problems that they would do well to concentrate on. They have too few real interests across the oceans that are worth bankrupting their country. And what are carriers for anyway if not for bragging rights?

IMO LHD are more than sufficient for Russian needs. Their main ship and land attack vessels remain nuclear SSGN and Yasen has no parallel in the world. Carriers are limited in the way they cannot take off strategic bombers, large AWACs, large aerial tankers, large ASW planes, are limited to fighter jets. LHD are far better at supporting amphibious landings.

 

[Feanor]

With nearly a dozen carrier battle groups, you can control seas, project power, etc. With one or two, it's not as much that you can control. For Russians in particular, with their main idea of carrier aircraft as anti-air defense (PVO) beyond the range of their navalized S-300s and S-400s, the safest bet would be to develop STOVL aircraft for use off of their helicopter carriers that are supposedly under construction.

This would be terrible. Smaller STOVL carriers have more restrictions in terms of what weather they can operate in. The aircraft they fly also tend to be less capable (unless you count the F-35), and Russia would have to develop a STOVL 5th gen from scratch. If Russia goes the carrier route, in my opinion they should go for a large nuclear powered carrier with eventual navalized Su-57s. Half-measures are not the way to go, and Russia can't afford their own F-35 equivalent. The best we would likely see in a near-future Russian STOVL would be a reborn Yak-141 with new avionics and an upgraded engine, and that's just too little too late.

On a side note, with 3 aircraft carriers, the Northern Fleet could maintain one near home, one on deployment, and one on maintenance quite well. This would let them effectively support the Mediterranean squadron, or even conduct longer voyages into the Indian and Pacific oceans for joint training with India and China. It wouldn't give control of the seas, but it would provide a serious headache for someone planning against the VMF. It would also allow a Syria-style operation without need a local airbase.

IMO LHD are more than sufficient for Russian needs. Their main ship and land attack vessels remain nuclear SSGN and Yasen has no parallel in the world. Carriers are limited in the way they cannot take off strategic bombers, large AWACs, large aerial tankers, large ASW planes, are limited to fighter jets. LHD are far better at supporting amphibious landings.

Yes, no parallel in the world, but with torpedoes that belong in a museum. And just what is the situation with the anti-torpedo system for the 885Ms? I suspect that for all their advantages the Yasen class will be in serious trouble when going up against either US/Wester ASW aircraft that have gotten very very good, or against western subs due to ridiculously inferior torpedoes. None of this is to say that Russia should stop building the type, or that they're useless. They're very useful, it's just not a good idea for the VMF to put all their eggs in the Yasen basket. Russia should reduce the side of the SSGN fleet to 12-16 vessels instead of the current 22, and focus on better maintenance turnaround times. The spare funds should be funneled towards potential large surface combatants.

 

[RoyZZConnor]

Russian navy's main purpose for the foreseeable future is guarding Crimea from Ukraine and guarding Southern Kurils from Japan. Aircraft carriers are not priority considering their proximity to Russian mainland. What they need are more hard hitting modern surface combatants such as Gremyashchiy corvettes and Gorshkov frigates, and of course modern large ASW planes based on Tu-214.

Gremyashchiy-class corvette - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Admiral Gorshkov-class frigate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Tu-204 passenger plane converted in antisubmarine aircraft for Russian Navy

Russian Navy prepared technical requirements for the latest antisubmarine aircraft on the basis of Tu-204 passenger plane

www.navyrecognition.com

 

[Feanor]

Russian navy's main purpose for the foreseeable future is guarding Crimea from Ukraine and guarding Southern Kurils from Japan. Aircraft carriers are not priority considering their proximity to Russian mainland. What they need are more hard hitting modern surface combatants such as Gremyashchiy corvettes and Gorshkov frigates, and of course modern large ASW planes based on Tu-214.

Gremyashchiy-class corvette - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Admiral Gorshkov-class frigate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Tu-204 passenger plane converted in antisubmarine aircraft for Russian Navy

Russian Navy prepared technical requirements for the latest antisubmarine aircraft on the basis of Tu-204 passenger plane

www.navyrecognition.com

Protecting Crimea from Ukraine can currently be accomplished by the Coast Guard... As for Japan and the Kurils, this is where a Russian CVBG in the north Pacific would suddenly matter a whole lot. It's one thing to plan an amphibious operation against the Kurils where your biggest threat is some aging Soviet destroyers, a handful of subs, and a few new frigates/corvettes. It's another when there's a Russian CVBG out at sea that could strike at any time. At the very least considerable resources would have to be devoted to tracking it and being ready to counter it. At worst it could make the entire operation unworkable. This is exactly what I meant when I was talking about a headache for anyone planning against the VMF.

In my opinion the main purpose of the Russian Navy, in order, should be as follows;

1) protecting SLBM bastions from foreign ASW
2) protecting Russia's ports and coastlines from enemy attack
3) protecting and providing communication/supply lines to Russian outposts (Kaliningrad and Kurils, but also Syria and soon Sudan)
4) protecting Russia's claim to the Arctic and the Northern Sea Passage
5) protecting Russian trade routes where feasible (this would range from something like anti-piracy missions, to protecting Russian tankers going to Venezuela in open defiance of US or EU sanctions)
6) providing support for Russian expeditionary forces

 

[Feanor]

The part about a new ASW plane is both good and bad. Russia needs less of a dedicated ASW aircraft and more of a multipurpose MPA. Russia can't afford, like the Soviets had, a dedicated fleet of Tu-95RTs, and Tu-142s. The VMF needs a single aircraft that can do both, and plant sea mines, and at least potentially launch AShMs. The Tu-204 makes some sense as a platform (I think the MS-21 makes more sense) and the AVMF is in desperate need of a new platform, but also with new systems.

 

[RoyZZConnor]

Protecting Crimea from Ukraine can currently be accomplished by the Coast Guard... As for Japan and the Kurils, this is where a Russian CVBG in the north Pacific would suddenly matter a whole lot. It's one thing to plan an amphibious operation against the Kurils where your biggest threat is some aging Soviet destroyers, a handful of subs, and a few new frigates/corvettes. It's another when there's a Russian CVBG out at sea that could strike at any time. At the very least considerable resources would have to be devoted to tracking it and being ready to counter it. At worst it could make the entire operation unworkable. This is exactly what I meant when I was talking about a headache for anyone planning against the VMF.

In my opinion the main purpose of the Russian Navy, in order, should be as follows;

1) protecting SLBM bastions from foreign ASW
2) protecting Russia's ports and coastlines from enemy attack
3) protecting and providing communication/supply lines to Russian outposts (Kaliningrad and Kurils, but also Syria and soon Sudan)
4) protecting Russia's claim to the Arctic and the Northern Sea Passage
5) protecting Russian trade routes where feasible (this would range from something like anti-piracy missions, to protecting Russian tankers going to Venezuela in open defiance of US or EU sanctions)
6) providing support for Russian expeditionary forces

A Japanese invasion of Southern Kurils will likely go the way of Falklands war in which Japan quickly and easily takes control of Iturup and Kunashir but it's the subsequent Russian reinforcement that will be the main part of the battle. Given the proximity of Southern Kurils to Russian mainland, in contrast to the distance of Falklands to British mainland, Tu-22M3M anti ship bombers would be able to strike the Japanese fleet at Southern Kurils from the Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky airport which is about a thousand km from the Southern Kurils. Japan will then vacate the Southern Kurils the way Argentina vacated Falklands after losing some destroyers.

 

[John Fedup]

If Russia goes the carrier route, in my opinion they should go for a large nuclear powered carrier with eventual navalized Su-57s. Half-measures are not the way to go, and Russia can't afford their own F-35 equivalent.

Agree, a CVN makes more sense. STOBAR or CATOBAR, I imagine the Su-57 might require a catapult for take off. You mentioned 3 carriers which would be ideal but cost wise, probably unrealistic.

 

[Feanor]

Agree, a CVN makes more sense. STOBAR or CATOBAR, I imagine the Su-57 might require a catapult for take off. You mentioned 3 carriers which would be ideal but cost wise, probably unrealistic.

I think it's quite realistic, but it requires making some hard obvious choices about not designing and building 1348763287 different types of smaller surface combatants and focusing on a few vessel types but building them in numbers, benefitting from economics of scale, and saving money from the constant OKRs. To put it into perspective, over the past 20 years Russia has had development programs for the 21631, 22800, 22160, 20385, and 20386, all state funded. Only one of those is really necessary. (the 20385, and then only if you really need those Kalibrs ASAP). To be honest, you could even say that none are necessary, and instead simply aggressive fund the 20380 production, with incremental upgrades to the type including a light anti-submarine missile that can be launched from X-35 tubes. The cash they spent on the 20386 alone is staggering.

A long time ago the VMF had a neat little plan: corvette (20380) frigate (22350) destroyer (21956? but eventually OKR Lider) aircraft carried (TBD). Had they mostly stuck to this (with maybe some landing ships thrown in) for surface combatants and there would probably be money for a carrier program.