Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Unless my information is outdated, MS-21 might not be suited for military applications because a good portion of its components were sourced from abroad, it was from the beginning meant as a commercial project for both domestic use and export. The Tu-214, however, is 100% domestic and cannot be affected by sanctions.
It's a bit of an open question. I don't think the MS-21 is going to be a big success on the international market as a passenger airliner, largely due to US sanctions. I also think that the Tu-204 family is badly outdated. And I think that Russia needs a new medium airliner between the SSJ and the Il-96-400M. The MS-21 fits the bill perfectly (unsurprisingly, it's what it was meant to do). This just leaves open the question of western components. However the manufacturer, IAPO, is already getting hit by sanctions including them being denied access to western composite materials (luckily RosAtom had a manufacturing line already available that can apparently produce the necessary components). I don't think there's any chance that the MS-21 project won't be hit by more sanctions. Ultimately it seems like the US is dead-set on isolating Russia from the global economy as much as possible, as part of the ongoing deterioration of relations. How successful they are remains to be seen, but all of this points to increasing localization of the MS-21 in the future regardless of other consideration. This will make it more expensive, and less attractive. Hence the need to secure state orders, and making it a good candidate to be the platform for the new MPA. Ideally it would be the new platform for all special-purpose planes, including future SIGINT/ELINT platforms, and even EW (OKR Prorubschik must have a successor at some point).

I also don't think the Tu-214 is 100% domestic, just mostly domestic. Take a look here, if I'm reading this correctly, it means 242 components in the Tu-214 are imported.

 

SolarWind

Active Member
It's a bit of an open question. I don't think the MS-21 is going to be a big success on the international market as a passenger airliner, largely due to US sanctions. I also think that the Tu-204 family is badly outdated. And I think that Russia needs a new medium airliner between the SSJ and the Il-96-400M. The MS-21 fits the bill perfectly (unsurprisingly, it's what it was meant to do). This just leaves open the question of western components. However the manufacturer, IAPO, is already getting hit by sanctions including them being denied access to western composite materials (luckily RosAtom had a manufacturing line already available that can apparently produce the necessary components). I don't think there's any chance that the MS-21 project won't be hit by more sanctions. Ultimately it seems like the US is dead-set on isolating Russia from the global economy as much as possible, as part of the ongoing deterioration of relations. How successful they are remains to be seen, but all of this points to increasing localization of the MS-21 in the future regardless of other consideration. This will make it more expensive, and less attractive. Hence the need to secure state orders, and making it a good candidate to be the platform for the new MPA. Ideally it would be the new platform for all special-purpose planes, including future SIGINT/ELINT platforms, and even EW (OKR Prorubschik must have a successor at some point).

I also don't think the Tu-214 is 100% domestic, just mostly domestic. Take a look here, if I'm reading this correctly, it means 242 components in the Tu-214 are imported.

I am sure they can localize all components, the time frame for that is unclear, however, and how much that would stretch the time frame for the AVMF. I was under the impression that Tu-214 was completely localized. I wonder if the Vedomosti was correct about the number of foreigh-sourced components back in 2015.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I am sure they can localize all components, the time frame for that is unclear, however, and how much that would stretch the time frame for the AVMF. I was under the impression that Tu-214 was completely localized. I wonder if the Vedomosti was correct about the number of foreigh-sourced components back in 2015.
I know that back in the early 2010s when the SSJ was catching fire in Russian media for foreign components (mind you this was pre-sanctions), one of the points brought up was that the so called "domestic" An-148s, Tu-204/214s, etc. all had foreign components as well. I'm not sure how many, nor am I sure what level of the assembly process they are looking at to count components. Are there 242 foreign made nuts and bolts in it? Are we talking about 242 elements of the interiors and the seats? Or are we talking about important parts of the avionics? But I do remember that the type was not 100% localized and I strongly suspect it still isn't. As for timeframe for the AVMF... is there even an OKR running for a new anti-submarine suite? How about modern sea mines? I don't think it's a good use of money to stick the Novella on a Tu-214 and call it a "new" MPA. Developing a new weapons bay that can work with Russia's prospective AShMs, prospective sea mines, etc. will also take time.

It remains to be seen how its production goes in light of recent sanctions, and I suspect it will only go into serial production with Russian engines (unlike the original plans). But in a way this simplifies the issue of domestication. The sanctions are also fairly porous even when it comes to someone like Ukraine (note Russia has been able to produce Be-200s and An-148s with Ukrainian components and does so to this day). I think that as long as the MS-21 doesn't lean too heavily on US components, other countries may be more willing to turn a blind eye to it being used as a future MPA for the AVMF. And I do mean future, again it would likely be the middle to the end of this decade before this hypothetical project could get to line units.
 

SolarWind

Active Member
Hypothetically speaking, even if they had the OKR for a new anti-sub suite, they might not want to publicize it as that could lead to more sanction pressure. The time frame for the anti-sub OKR would likely be similar to the time frame of localizing all components, if that were the case.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
On the subject of the above conversation - the An-148 in Russian airlines is almost done. The last airline still flying it is down to a single aircraft, with no way to service the engines. Government aircraft remain in service due to low flight hours and plenty of donors for cannibalism. It's likely that Myasichev will take over service for them, but not the commercial ones.

 

SolarWind

Active Member
On the subject of the above conversation - the An-148 in Russian airlines is almost done. The last airline still flying it is down to a single aircraft, with no way to service the engines. Government aircraft remain in service due to low flight hours and plenty of donors for cannibalism. It's likely that Myasichev will take over service for them, but not the commercial ones.

This one is mostly Ukraine's loss.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member

Is there a reason why the commissioning of warships and submarines in Russia are often done around the 30th of the month and specially at the end of the year?
Yes. A lot of the time the deadlines are set not by vessel completion but to meet a certain date. As a result often the deliveries are done at the last possible moment. It's not a good practice, but you'll see it a lot. There's even an expression - to hand over under the Christmas tree, implying something done by the very end of the year, to meet the requirement for a hand over during that year.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Yes. A lot of the time the deadlines are set not by vessel completion but to meet a certain date. As a result often the deliveries are done at the last possible moment. It's not a good practice, but you'll see it a lot. There's even an expression - to hand over under the Christmas tree, implying something done by the very end of the year, to meet the requirement for a hand over during that year.
Thank you Feanor.

During a recent exercise the Pacific Fleet’s Project 955 Borei-class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine Vladimir Monomakh has performed a salvo launch of four RSM-56 Bulava submarine-launched ballistic missiles. If im not wrong this is the largest Bulava salvo ever fired.
Anyway, the result is a beautiful video.

 

SolarWind

Active Member
The Russian Ministry of Defence has contracted the Amur Shipbuilding Plant for construction of two 20380's and four 20385's to be handed over to the Pacific Fleet from 2024 to 2028.

This comes on the heels of successful finalization of government testing of the first 20385 and its nearing hand over to the VMF.

The Amur Shipyard is also finishing construction of the 4th 20380 that is part of an earlier contract, with 2 already delivered to the VMF, and one in testing.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Not many warships will be commissioned on First Christmas Day.


From which i understand this is the 9th Project 20380 corvette delivered to the Russian Navy.

Edit: some more updates.
At last, the first of the Project 20385 heavy corvettes is commissioned on 29 December.

 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

The 4th 12700 mine trawler has entered service. 4 more are also under construction. Many more are planned but starting with the 9th hull the ship will be larger and carry a different mine clearing submersible. Which essentially means it will be a different ship. It remains to be seen what this looks like in practice. It was somewhat comical when the trawlers were reclassified from base trawlers to sea trawlers, a role for which they're unsuited, and then re-classified back, quietly. I suspect that in point of fact this represent a failure of the program.


The 4th 22220 nuclear icebreaker has been laid down. While the type doesn't strictly belong to the VMF, they play a big role in the ability of the VMF to operate in the Arctic.


Next generation SLBM subs and diesel-electric (non-nuclear) subs are apparently being developed at Rubin. What this means in practice is unclear, and news about a successor to the questionable 677 diesel subs has been talked about before.


The Amur plant has been given the contract for 6 new corvettes including 4 20385s. The timeframes for delivery are 2024-2028 which is rather... optimistic. Then again Amur has been handing over 1 corvette per year for 3 years now.


The Kazan, the first 885M, has conducted live-fire of Oniks AShMs against a sea target.


Some sort of joint operation between 885 subs and the 22350 frigates is planned, but what this means in practice is unclear. Some think (myself included) that it's a case of working with what you have rather then optimizing for best joint operations.


12 03182 supply ships are planned, to be built at Zelenodol'sk. The VMF does need the ships, and Zelenodol'sk needs the orders. Hopefully this puts to rest plans for a 21631M version. The idea was floated earlier, and the yard needed work.


The Northern Fleet has officially been given the status of a Military District. It was already an Operational-Strategic Command, and this makes it permanent.


The first 20385 corvette has entered service.


The Petr Morgunov has entered service. Given the wear on the Soviet-era BDKs, this is a needed addition. It's part of a series of "under the tree" acceptances for service that included two corvettes, the BDK, and a mine trawler.

 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Update.

The 4th 12700 mine trawler has entered service. 4 more are also under construction. Many more are planned but starting with the 9th hull the ship will be larger and carry a different mine clearing submersible. Which essentially means it will be a different ship. It remains to be seen what this looks like in practice. It was somewhat comical when the trawlers were reclassified from base trawlers to sea trawlers, a role for which they're unsuited, and then re-classified back, quietly. I suspect that in point of fact this represent a failure of the program.


The 4th 22220 nuclear icebreaker has been laid down. While the type doesn't strictly belong to the VMF, they play a big role in the ability of the VMF to operate in the Arctic.


Next generation SLBM subs and diesel-electric (non-nuclear) subs are apparently being developed at Rubin. What this means in practice is unclear, and news about a successor to the questionable 677 diesel subs has been talked about before.


The Amur plant has been given the contract for 6 new corvettes including 4 20385s. The timeframes for delivery are 2024-2028 which is rather... optimistic. Then again Amur has been handing over 1 corvette per year for 3 years now.


The Kazan, the first 885M, has conducted live-fire of Oniks AShMs against a sea target.


Some sort of joint operation between 885 subs and the 22350 frigates is planned, but what this means in practice is unclear. Some think (myself included) that it's a case of working with what you have rather then optimizing for best joint operations.


12 03182 supply ships are planned, to be built at Zelenodol'sk. The VMF does need the ships, and Zelenodol'sk needs the orders. Hopefully this puts to rest plans for a 21631M version. The idea was floated earlier, and the yard needed work.


The Northern Fleet has officially been given the status of a Military District. It was already an Operational-Strategic Command, and this makes it permanent.


The first 20385 corvette has entered service.


The Petr Morgunov has entered service. Given the wear on the Soviet-era BDKs, this is a needed addition. It's part of a series of "under the tree" acceptances for service that included two corvettes, the BDK, and a mine trawler.

According to Wikipedia the 885M is slightly shorter than the 885, 130 m instead of 139 m, is this correctly?

Its good to see that the construction of the second 11711 was much faster than the first of class. Are there already photos on the internet of the larger 3rd and 4th vessels (11711M?).
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
According to Wikipedia the 885M is slightly shorter than the 885, 130 m instead of 139 m, is this correctly?
I don't recall for sure off the top of my head, but it does sound about right.

Its good to see that the construction of the second 11711 was much faster than the first of class. Are there already photos on the internet of the larger 3rd and 4th vessels (11711M?).
I don't think the hulls have been formed yet. So any photos would simply be giant semi-ship-shaped pieces of metal. That having been said, with COVID such photo sessions are less likely then ever.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
The lines for the Head corvette "Gremyashchiy" of project 20385 are very stylish.
I can't recall a more sharply raked bow.
Looks fast just sitting still in the water
MB
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Some surprising news....

Three Project 955 and one 955A are already in active service, the shipyard is now building four more Project 955A submarines: the Knyaz Oleg, the Generalissimo Suvorov, the Emperor Alexander III and the Knyaz Pozharsky.

What makes it surprising is not that two more Borei-class submarines are ordered, but the name given to the 9th Borei: Dmitry Donskoy! With other words, the last active Project 941 will be retired from service before the new 955A is commissioned, which is planned for around 2028.

So it seems that before 2028, there will be no 955Bs under construction.
 
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SolarWind

Active Member
So it seems that before 2028, there will be no 955Bs under construction.
It's been a while since they decided to scrap plans for 955Bs in favor of producing more 955As, but I do not recall how long ago. Apparently they felt that the costs and unpredictability of time to spend switching production to 955Bs wasn't worth giving up the positive dynamic of producing 955As. I suspect they will skip the "B" version altogether with something else in the works ready by the time the "A" run can be dialed down.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Some Naval Aviation MiG-31 news.

So the first article is about that Russian Naval Aviation have stood up a MiG-31BM quick-reaction alert (QRA) detachment in the Novaya Zemlya archipelago in Russia’s Arctic north.

And the second article tells us that the Russian Navy prepare to accept the Kh-47M Kinzhal into service the two MiG-31 squadrons of 98th and 317th combined regiments.
It seems that the MiG-31K cannot fire air-to-air missiles and has to be engaged together with MiG-31BM. It means the future regiments will comprise at least two squadrons. One will ensure air defense and protect MiG-31K. The other will operate MiG-31K.
But i think that it is possible that a single squadron can operate the MiG-31BM and MiG-31K combined.
 
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