Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

Wall83

Member
An act of desperation on the part of Russia. It would've been meaningful 15 years ago in exchange for gas debts. Now this Soviet-era construction project will enter service in what.... 2012?
True. But with a modern arment and sensor suit I think this ship can be usefull.
Remember Russia will probably not build any new cruisers. Atleast not for a decade or so. They will keep the older Kirov and Slava class cruisers active as long as possible.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
True. But with a modern arment and sensor suit I think this ship can be usefull.
Remember Russia will probably not build any new cruisers. Atleast not for a decade or so. They will keep the older Kirov and Slava class cruisers active as long as possible.
Naturally. Dated equipment is better then no equipment.
 

SkolZkiy

New Member
In other news the Ukrainian defence minister has comfirmed that Russia is willing to buy the Slava class cruiser Ukrayina.
Russian specialists are about to inspect the ship and assess her status prior to making the definitive decision.

Talks on cruiser Ukraina are in progress, Russians want to inspect her bottom – Yezhel
Very Very doubtful - it is too old. And moderniztion will cost as a new frigate 22350 or even more. If this deal is to be done it will be done only by political reasons - fleet doesn't need this cruiser
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
VMF needs any large ship it can get. Likely after acquisition the sensor, comms, command, and weapons packages will all be modernized or replaced outright. The money is there, but the facilities for producing ships of this size are not (at least not in a timely and on budget manner). Starting by refitting and upgrading an existing design is however a good way to build capability. Additionally no new designs of comparable scale have been developed. So if the VMF wants to remain a blue-water navy it has to take what it can get and make do.

It's not a good solution. But it's a solution.
 

SkolZkiy

New Member
VMF needs any large ship it can get. Likely after acquisition the sensor, comms, command, and weapons packages will all be modernized or replaced outright. The money is there, but the facilities for producing ships of this size are not (at least not in a timely and on budget manner). Starting by refitting and upgrading an existing design is however a good way to build capability. Additionally no new designs of comparable scale have been developed. So if the VMF wants to remain a blue-water navy it has to take what it can get and make do.

It's not a good solution. But it's a solution.
Feanor you know that this Slava is too old. More then this - redesign will be TOO EXPENSIVE. it will be far more usefull to repair one more Kirov or start building 1 or even 2 new 22350 frigates with Onix
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
VMF needs any large ship it can get. Likely after acquisition the sensor, comms, command, and weapons packages will all be modernized or replaced outright. The money is there, but the facilities for producing ships of this size are not (at least not in a timely and on budget manner). Starting by refitting and upgrading an existing design is however a good way to build capability. Additionally no new designs of comparable scale have been developed. So if the VMF wants to remain a blue-water navy it has to take what it can get and make do.

It's not a good solution. But it's a solution.
But won't the refit be as long or longer as you using the same doubtful shipyards for modernization which often far harder and more expensive than new builds. The UK and US experience in updating carriers is testament to that.

Also how structurally sound is the hull as it been sitting around for decades and referbing the hull would be an expensive proposition.
 

Wall83

Member
I do agree that the money spent on a modification of this old slava cruiser could be better spend. Why not just spend all the money on the Admiral Nakhimov for exampel.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
It's a question of budget in my opinion. If the budget grows faster then production facilities can keep up. Right now it looks like plans will have the Nakhimov completed as fast as the shipyards can manage it., all the necessary funding is there.

There is also a good chance politics had something to do with it. Ukraine needs to be rewarded and sweetened up so that the new nominally pro-Russian government remains that way. Also a question of what shipyard is pushing for the order.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
It's a question of budget in my opinion. If the budget grows faster then production facilities can keep up. Right now it looks like plans will have the Nakhimov completed as fast as the shipyards can manage it., all the necessary funding is there.

There is also a good chance politics had something to do with it. Ukraine needs to be rewarded and sweetened up so that the new nominally pro-Russian government remains that way. Also a question of what shipyard is pushing for the order.
Can't they be rewarded in a more efficient manner an old cruiser being finished seems an inadequate especially as the Ukraine has been hinting that it will try to get an old western NATO compatible vessels (see I think 2 issues back Janes Navies) can't link it due to pay wall. Couldn't russia give Ukraine contracts for small combatants(they should be capable of that?) rather than a Slava which has been hanging around half finished for decades. You mention that funding exceed ship building capacity for a number of years wouldn't outsourcing part of it to Ukraine help.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
There are some plans to outsource to Ukraine. However what exactly this entails is unclear. The contracts for small combatants are quite juicy, and have a lot of potential for any shipyard that gets them. I.e. the shipyard that wins the internal tender for the first few ships will likely get any future contracts for those ships by default (including export ones). So I would imagine there is a lot of pressure not to outsource those. They're also contracts that most Russian shipyards are capable of completing.

Refiting a giant old cruiser is a whole other story. The project has high risk, requires a lot of funding, and is likely to face major slippages in cost and delivery time. Hence why Sevmash in Russia is the only one to take care of those, and even then more so because it's been practically assigned the role of Russia's large ship builder. Hence why there is a lot less desire amongst Russian shipbuilders to pick up said project. At the same time, in the best traditions of Russian politics and bureaucratics, there is a desire to reward Ukraine, there is money to be spent, so something for it to be spent on is invented. In the end it's not that bad of a solution, granted that the money could've been spent on something far less useful, or just been turned into gas subsidies.

And of course there is the issue that the VMF will get very few blue-water vessels in the next decade. By optimistic estimates I would expect 2-3 Kirovs to be refitted, along with the Kuznetsov, and a few of the project 22350 frigates. A new Slava would at least help maintain some nominal projection capability. Additionally if a single Slava refit can go through, then there is a template and a working relationship to do the same for the rest of them. And in the long run possibly a whole new class of ships to replace them.
 

Wall83

Member
From the horses mouth: Russia is not currently and does not plan to in the near future, build new aircraft carriers.

Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: Ñåðäþêîâ îïðîâåðã ñîîáùåíèå î ñòðîèòåëüñòâå àâèàíîñöåâ

Not that we didn't already know this (with the Kuznetsov refit scheduled 2012-2017, it's probably a pre-carrier program upgrade, to try out some of the new equipment).
What a suprise :rolleyes:

However if they relocated all resources from the planned four Mistral to a second carrier insted. Shouldnt that be possible then?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
What a suprise :rolleyes:

However if they relocated all resources from the planned four Mistral to a second carrier insted. Shouldnt that be possible then?
No. It wouldn't. There is currently one shipyard in Russia with the practical experience, the specialists, and the planning capability to produce aircraft carriers. That's Sevmash. Any other shipyard is a risk, and a major one at that (given the poor state of domestic shipbuilding more broadly). Sevmash is currently working on the Vikramaditya. Then on the Kuznetsov refit. That's scheduled to be done in 2017. So realistically, 2017-2018 is when the first carrier could begin construction.

Remember for single large target programs funding is not the issue, it's production.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
I was under the impression that the mistral deal is suppose to improve Russia's general shipbuilding capabilities. If that's the case, wouldn't the same investment be better off if they are spent on the civilian sector? You can invite a lot of investments from Korean companies teaching local shipyards on modern shipbuilding methods and project management skills.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The idea isn't to directly improve via imported technology, but rather place pressure on in the form of competition.
 
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