Russia wants French Helicopter Carriers...

[riksavage]

Strategically selling kit to Russia makes some sense, by improving relations you knock down all the anti-Western/Imperialistic bluster and rhetoric, which Putin likes to spew forth for domestic consumption as a result of the Soviet collapse and loss of prestige. Europe depends on Russian gas imports and Russia depends on Western European engineering/manufacturing/luxury goods imports and she needs to attract increased European investment. The more the two geopolitical spheres trade the more they will rely on each other making a shooting war less, not more likely. By supplying Russia with Western technology you make them part of the supply chain, which cannot be easily severed overnight. I'm not too concerned about Mistral's, these are not strategic multipliers unlike SSN's, strike carriers and/or high-end ISTAR assets.

Russia and Western Europe have a common enemy in the form of Islamic extremism, this should prove a baseline for future cooperation. The war in Afghanistan has seriously called into question the continued viability of NATO anyway (Canadian Government being the latest to question its continued relevance), so when it finally collapses we will see new alliances form based on securing natural resources rather than protecting ideology's (communism vs. capitalism). The need for 'yet to be discovered' Oil & Gas reserves out to 2030 means that developing nations, deep water and the two poles will represent the target areas for future exploration, this will bring new military challenges to Europe, Russia and the US outside of the historical battleground of Europe.

 

[Feanor]

Strategically selling kit to Russia makes some sense, by improving relations you knock down all the anti-Western/Imperialistic bluster and rhetoric, which Putin likes to spew forth for domestic consumption as a result of the Soviet collapse and loss of prestige. Europe depends on Russian gas imports and Russia depends on Western European engineering/manufacturing/luxury goods imports and she needs to attract increased European investment. The more the two geopolitical spheres trade the more they will rely on each other making a shooting war less, not more likely. By supplying Russia with Western technology you make them part of the supply chain, which cannot be easily severed overnight. I'm not too concerned about Mistral's, these are not strategic multipliers unlike SSN's, strike carriers and/or high-end ISTAR assets.

In the context of the VMF the Mistral class ships would be a strategic multiplier. It would essentially make amphibious expeditionary operations possible. Something that is not currently possible.

Russia and Western Europe have a common enemy in the form of Islamic extremism, this should prove a baseline for future cooperation. The war in Afghanistan has seriously called into question the continued viability of NATO anyway (Canadian Government being the latest to question its continued relevance), so when it finally collapses we will see new alliances form based on securing natural resources rather than protecting ideology's (communism vs. capitalism). The need for 'yet to be discovered' Oil & Gas reserves out to 2030 means that developing nations, deep water and the two poles will represent the target areas for future exploration, this will bring new military challenges to Europe, Russia and the US outside of the historical battleground of Europe.

And yet so far cooperation has been downplayed, and confrontation has been played up both in the media and in politics. I wonder if that's just inertial thinking or if there is a genuine paradigm at work there, especially in regards to Russian politics.

 

[riksavage]

In the context of the VMF the Mistral class ships would be a strategic multiplier. It would essentially make amphibious expeditionary operations possible. Something that is not currently possible.

I beg to differ, the Mistral is an enhanced ferry, not quite a WASP class, it can't tip the strategic balance in it's own right - no indigenous CAP, CAS, firepower, ISTAR etc. It certainly can't threaten the Baltic states without a shed-load of supporting assets. May bring a tactical advantage to the table, but not strategic. From a maritime perspective strategic influence is restricted to Strike Carrier's, SSN's, SSGN's, SSBN's or Cruise Missile Destroyer's, all capable of influencing state policy through threat or actual deep strike attack, which in most cases will be immune to all but the top tier nations defence capabilites.

 

[swerve]

...And what do you know, next thing Holland gets approached for the same sort of ships, offered a fat contract, and a chance to butt in on the Russian defence market.

But that still means Thales kit - which is, after all, the sensitive bit. And the Dutch are far more susceptible to pressure from the USA, UK etc.

 

[harryriedl]

But that still means Thales kit - which is, after all, the sensitive bit. And the Dutch are far more susceptible to pressure from the USA, UK etc.

what ever happened to the Russian Ivan Gren not judging the design or anything its just seems to have dissiapered.
If they can't get a euro ampib they could go Asian im sure the Chinese or Koreans would sell them an LPD (not quite the same as the Mistral or the big enforcers) and then get Euro command systems instead if they can't get home build to work and Euro's won't sell a full kitted out vessel.

Don't presume Navatia would be able to be persuaded to sell Russia a fully kitted out Ampib.

 

[Feanor]

It's by no meas a done deal. But there is room for pressuring the French on this point.

 

[Wall83]

It seems that a agreement on the deal wont happend until late this year.

Russia to buy French warship by yearend - federal agency | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

 

[Feanor]

The decision has been made. Russia will purchase the ship, without SENIT9 or any weapon systems. It's now a matter of negotiating a contract.

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The dispute remains where it was, French want the 2+2 format, Russia the 1+3.

 

[ccL1]

The decision has been made. Russia will purchase the ship, without SENIT9 or any weapon systems. It's now a matter of negotiating a contract.

The dispute remains where it was, French want the 2+2 format, Russia the 1+3.

I know little about amphibious craft or the Russian military needs, so would a stripped down version of the Mistral even be useful for the Russians?

Wasn't one of the main points of purchasing the Mistral to get access to the naval technology that Russia lacks in, like the tactical data system?

Could there possibly be a *wink wink* under the table deal or not, away from the press and foreign military intelligence?

 

[Feanor]

There could. The deal involves a ToT. The ToT might include the SENIT9 while the main deal does not, or something else along those lines. The Mistral is useful one way or the other, as it adds significant capabilitiy to any of the fleets. It also provides a chance to develop the necessary shore infrastructure that is so sorely lacking, as well as being sort of a test. If Russia can successfully induct and operate, (as well as develop necessary infrastructure) the Mistral, then there may be hope for a Russian carrier program. If not, then perhaps the Naval acquisition program will be reprioritized.

 

[harryriedl]

There could. The deal involves a ToT. The ToT might include the SENIT9 while the main deal does not, or something else along those lines. The Mistral is useful one way or the other, as it adds significant capabilitiy to any of the fleets. It also provides a chance to develop the necessary shore infrastructure that is so sorely lacking, as well as being sort of a test. If Russia can successfully induct and operate, (as well as develop necessary infrastructure) the Mistral, then there may be hope for a Russian carrier program. If not, then perhaps the Naval acquisition program will be reprioritized.

Not forgetting that it will be the most comfortable ship in the fleet it will be a complete change in accommodation and crewing for Russian fleet because that one aspects of the Russian fleet is how far behind the Western fleets in shipboard comfort which impacts both physiologically and efficiency wise in the vessel. A place on a Russian mistral will be highly sort after among both officers and enlisted.

Feanor dose this mean more equipment from the west if its successful

 

[Feanor]

It means more equipment from the west regardless of whether this is successful or not. The Russian MIC will not be able to satisfy MoD needs. This is already apparent in niche areas such as thermals, and optics, sniper rifles for SpetzNaz, UAVs, etc. However the recently announced decision to import armor for light armored vehicles from Germany is indicative.

 

[harryriedl]

It means more equipment from the west regardless of whether this is successful or not. The Russian MIC will not be able to satisfy MoD needs. This is already apparent in niche areas such as thermals, and optics, sniper rifles for SpetzNaz, UAVs, etc. However the recently announced decision to import armor for light armored vehicles from Germany is indicative.

How about big ticket items such as Destroyers, and surface combatants. I imagine that aircraft are out of the question due a relatively healthy aircraft biz(baring Yak 130 JV and other aero joint ventures). Do you imagine the MoD will largely recapitalized the armed forces with western equipment with a much smaller market share for Russian kit.

 

[idiana]

the Ivans wanna research some new technologies of the French,i think, not just some Helicop.

 

[Feanor]

How about big ticket items such as Destroyers, and surface combatants. I imagine that aircraft are out of the question due a relatively healthy aircraft biz(baring Yak 130 JV and other aero joint ventures). Do you imagine the MoD will largely recapitalized the armed forces with western equipment with a much smaller market share for Russian kit.

I don't know about large shipbuilding. We're doing fine with the Stereguschiy class so far, the second of it has been handed over.

Aircraft wise, the AVMF will have to make due with domestic models. I don't see any foreign replacement for the Tu-22M3, and the Su-33 replacement is the MiG-29K. However there is definitely room for western components in these aircraft. The same way that Thales thermals got internalized on domestic T-90 variants, we can expect other pieces of gear initially used on export variants to be used domestically.

 

[SkolZkiy]

It would be in the way of buying whole technologies - we don't trust West. Russia has announced that there will be no buying something without it's technology - Thales termals, Mistral, laserpod for Su-30/34.
Popovkin said many things - soon we'll see what all of this means or may be it means nothing.

 

[Wall83]

Acourding the the Russian defense minister Russia has reached the final stage of talks on the purchase of four French Mistral-class helicopter carriers.
If a deal is made one ship will be built by france shipbuilders, the second and third will also be constructed by france but with assistence of russian shipbuilders, the fourth one will be totaly builded by Russia.
He also comfirmes that the ships if deployed will be stationed in the North and Pacific Fleet.

Russia in final stage of talks to buy 4 Mistral-class warships | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

 

[Feanor]

I heard the same but with slight variation, that the first ship will be built in France, the second and third in Russia with large percentage of French components, and the fourth built almost completely in Russia, with full ToT and a production license.