I disagree the OPV's have been designed with use in the Southern Ocean, that would pretty much mean they should be able to operate in any kind of sea state you could throw at them. The OPV's are the perfect vessel for this type of operation, I personally think that sending a frigate or destroyer is overkill for this operation.
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
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The people I have spoken to who have been on Otago for sea trials said she exceeded the expected standard!! So im not to sure about where people are getting the idea that sea keeping is sub standard. Even her performance far exceeded what had been put on paper.
Are full frigates the min requirement in today's enivornment. I question that. The French are using the Floreal's on Anti Priacy patrols. I can't see anything wrong with the OPV's doing the job in terms of range and seakeeping. What concerns me is the ability of the OPV to engage the mother ship the pirates are suppose to be using. Oh for a 57mm.SeaToby said:
I hear they do 24 knots, not bad.
If only they were'nt over weight
any updates on how the negiotiations with Bae are going ? is a plug in the hull a realistic option to solve the weight problems ?I understand mediation with BAE was due to begin last Monday (25th May) so it'll probably some time before we see an outcome.If only they were'nt over weight
The OPV's will be quite capable of doing these anti-piracy patrols, their sea-keeping is apparently first-rate and they are apparently very manouvrable & stable. On the sea-trials apparently their ability to perform tight turns quite impressed the trials crew. :nutkick
The IPV's also proved their sea-keeping on their delivery runs to Auckland - after 40knot+ gusts at departure from Whangarei they scooted down to Auckland at 23.5 knots quite confortably in what were described as 'adverse' by the skipper! :shudder
"The OPV's will be quite capable of doing these anti-piracy patrols, their sea-keeping is apparently first-rate and they are apparently very manouvrable & stable. On the sea-trials apparently their ability to perform tight turns quite impressed the trials crew. "
Agree but with only a front stabilised 25mm and two .50 cal HMG its weapons fitted , could it handle a multiple fast small boat attack?Fine for NZ /South Pacifi threats, lets assume the Helicoters having an off day !
I would think a Bofors 57 MK3 at the front ,adds 14tonnes (80tonnes available as 100 went in overweight design -14=66 to play with)+.50 cals stabilised onto mini typhoon mounts ,upgraded Mk15 block 1B Phalanx at the back, another 14 tonnes(hum what to do with the crane) would be a start.Sea RAM behind the Bridge above the sea boats ops gone to far made the OPV unstable!)It would take for ever, we would1) Need Political will (1) Inclusion in the White paper(2)NZDF deliberation, paper work, tenders,Cabinet approval to name a few steps(3) Structural modifications and ordering instaling the kit. Upon reflection I think the OPV's will spend their days closer to home or if they go anywhere it will be out of harms way complete with the current weapons fit.
Agree but with only a front stabilised 25mm and two .50 cal HMG its weapons fitted , could it handle a multiple fast small boat attack?Fine for NZ /South Pacifi threats, lets assume the Helicoters having an off day !
I would think a Bofors 57 MK3 at the front ,adds 14tonnes (80tonnes available as 100 went in overweight design -14=66 to play with)+.50 cals stabilised onto mini typhoon mounts ,upgraded Mk15 block 1B Phalanx at the back, another 14 tonnes(hum what to do with the crane) would be a start.Sea RAM behind the Bridge above the sea boats ops gone to far made the OPV unstable!)It would take for ever, we would
1) Need Political will (1) Inclusion in the White paper(2)NZDF deliberation, paper work, tenders,Cabinet approval to name a few steps(3) Structural modifications and ordering instaling the kit. Upon reflection I think the OPV's will spend their days closer to home or if they go anywhere it will be out of harms way complete with the current weapons fit.
How do you arrive at your weights. Structural modfication and reinforcing are going to add signifiantly to this mass and the fact all of it will be above the CoG is likely to have siginfiant implications on stability."The OPV's will be quite capable of doing these anti-piracy patrols, their sea-keeping is apparently first-rate and they are apparently very manouvrable & stable. On the sea-trials apparently their ability to perform tight turns quite impressed the trials crew. "
Agree but with only a front stabilised 25mm and two .50 cal HMG its weapons fitted , could it handle a multiple fast small boat attack?Fine for NZ /South Pacifi threats, lets assume the Helicoters having an off day !
I would think a Bofors 57 MK3 at the front ,adds 14tonnes (80tonnes available as 100 went in overweight design -14=66 to play with)+.50 cals stabilised onto mini typhoon mounts ,upgraded Mk15 block 1B Phalanx at the back, another 14 tonnes(hum what to do with the crane) would be a start.Sea RAM behind the Bridge above the sea boats ops gone to far made the OPV unstable!)It would take for ever, we would
Suggest they are quite a good OPV and trying to turn them into a mini frigate will simply compromise their ability to do anything well.
Mini typoon appears to be a sensible option. Another low inpact option would be MANPAD's that have a surface engagment capability and lightweight mounting (such as RBS-70 and deritvatives which have been used for this in the past).
Beside the MANPADS and systems like the RBS-70 an easily adaptable capability is offered by the Spike ATGM ER. Good optics in two spectrums can also help the guns to go a long way against small and not too fast target
I think it's fairly clear that the OPV's will be good as low-end OPV's and perfect for anti-piracy patrols - even with current weaponry. They may get some weapon upgrades out of the review but I wouldn't expect too much.
I'd be keen to see mini-typhoon in place of (almost) existing HMG's & a rear-facing remote control weapons station (mini-typhoon or another 25mm bushmaster would be ideal). I'd also like to see a full 360 degree electro-optic sensor - this would be both realistic and effective for anti-piracy & counter-terrorism roles (both stated roles).
Mistral launcher is a possibility (comonalit with NZ Army). Note - none of the above suggests trying to make a Frigate out of the OPV - it simply makes them a better OPV!
This is how I see the threat matrix for the OPV's (personal view only):
Level 1 - (resource protection) - little resistance, OPV's current weapons fit is fine.
Level 2 - (anti-piracy) - some threat but experience shows resistance isn't sustained nor highly military-like. OPV's should cope with existing weapons.
Level 3 - (counter-terrorism) - OPV's existing weapons fit now starts to look shaky against a organised & determined threat who will co-ordinate multiple attacks.
Level 4 - (low level combat) - OPV better keep away, although they may go easy on a soft-target!?!
Level 5 - (intensive combat) - Kiss your OPV goodbye!
I think thats a fairly accurate description of the OPV's capabilities. Funny, I thought they were meant to deal with all low end situations in the Pacific.
In terms of Mistral, if you remove the local control capability from the 25mm you can fit it to the existing gun mount (see the DSI website).
A gun upgrade to 57mm is viable, but future improvements in capability after that would have to rely on the modular capabilities fitted on the quarterdeck, if theres to be any marigin for changes in general equipment.
I like the idea of a 360 degree Typhoon system.
The key question is (I think) is that if the OPV's do 80% of what they're meant to as is, do they need an upgrade or would we be better of buying corvettes. I can see then taking over the role of Resolution and Manawanui.
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Regarding the RNZN's lack capacity to contribute to UN Anti Pirate Patrols (with one Frigate on exercise in SE Asia and the other in dry dock currently), that's the risk factored in by Govt's when they (both) decided to postpone then cancell a 3rd (or even 4th) Frigate a few years back, so to us here this comes as no suprise that a Frigate cannot be spared for anti-piracy ops at the moment (although it makes good media coverage but notice how the media cannot make the link with the present situation and the cancelled Frigates)! But that was a calculated risk whereby recent Govt's acknowledged this could happen.
Govt's did say of course that when the OPV's come into service that would free up the Frigates for the more demanding deployments further away (and whilst I'm sure the new OPV's might be useful for anti-piracy ops, surely that's not what they were bought for)!
But what's interesting in that even if the OPV's were already in service at this point in time, the fact of the matter is, one Frigate would be on excercises in SE Asia and the other in dry dock, so really the ideal of course would be to have a third Frigate at the very least (or perhaps Corvette etc).
Govt's did say of course that when the OPV's come into service that would free up the Frigates for the more demanding deployments further away (and whilst I'm sure the new OPV's might be useful for anti-piracy ops, surely that's not what they were bought for)!
But what's interesting in that even if the OPV's were already in service at this point in time, the fact of the matter is, one Frigate would be on excercises in SE Asia and the other in dry dock, so really the ideal of course would be to have a third Frigate at the very least (or perhaps Corvette etc).
Agreed 3rd Frigate would be the ideal, however I have no confidence we'll ever see a 3rd, nor possibly ANZAC's replaced with another Frigate type. :unknown - that's another story though!
OPV's would be good for level-1 (Resource protection); level-2 (Anti-Piracy); Level-3 (Counter-Terrorism) if up-armed with 360 degree electro-optical sensor & remote weapon station coverage - but nothing less for level-3.
Whether the Govt chooses to deploy them on anti-piracy patrols is another question, but with such a small fleet the NZDF needs to get the fleet doing as much as it can, including using the OPV's for as wide a range of operations as it can. Besides, it'd be an awesome opportunity for OPV crews to work with foreign warships with a 'real' threat scenario.
We've got to open our eyes here - there is an actual threat out there, albeit low-level, and we are being asked to prove we are responsible international citizens so we should be bending over backwards to contribute. Once asked our absence will be clearly noted.
Remember HMNZS Canterbury is also tasked with some patrol, so she'd be an outside possibility - but yeah not perfect (but perhaps beggars can't be choosers!). RN have used amphibious vessels to cope with a lack of combatants for these sorts of patrols.
So yes as it stands the RNZN would struggle to provide a vessel, but let's hope the Govt gets a (the!) Frigate up there a little later in the year. The anti-piracy patrols enjoy almost universal public support so it's a doddle even for the NZ Govt to get broad agreement for deployment without any political side-stepping and/or having to appease those with their heads in the clouds!
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
I agree with your sentiments there Gibbo!
Although, sorry, before I meant that I wasn't sure if the OPV's were bought for anti-piracy tasks on the other side of the world (I was thinking more closer to home or so far as the Malacca Straights perhaps etc).
But as you say, gotta think outside the square and it's not a good look when we cannot help out.
So could the OPV's and Canterbury be used for anti-piracy ops as far away as Africa?
Both types have the range and endurance to stay at sea, I take it.
Both types can carry a helicopter, which is a very handy asset to have.
Both types, I understand, have modern comms systems etc. I keep seeing those diagrams in the Navy Today etc showing the Frigates, P-3's, OPV's, Canty (and LAV's I think) being able to rely secure data between allied countries and their HQ's etc.
Both types have space and accomodation for civilian agencies (and a small "marine" boarding party)?
But what do both types lack for such operations?
Would the search radars be sufficient for locating small vessels at distances? If not, how much is that an issue eg could larger warship "vector" in OPV's/Canty into an area of interest or would this be an additional burden for the larger warship? Or is this not an issue because they do that anyway?
Could search radars be upgraded (due to weight issues etc) or to what extent etc?
I think the OPV's/Cant's current bushmaster might be sufficient to counter a relatively unarmed mothership except IMO if a 57mm gun was fitted (as a 76mm won't fit I believe) that might be more advantageous in terms of range etc. (As one wouldn't want to be too close to a mothership and swarms of fast craft maneouvering around firing off HMG's or RPG's - the single bushmaster would have to cope with multiple targets or the guys manning the 50 cals would be kept busy)!
Toplites with 360 coverage (and mini-typhoons on the 50 cal mounts) would have to be a given surely!
Wonder what the def-pros think on whether it is worth the effort or do they think Frigates are the minimum (and thus save the money on OPV upgrades for something else)?
Although, sorry, before I meant that I wasn't sure if the OPV's were bought for anti-piracy tasks on the other side of the world (I was thinking more closer to home or so far as the Malacca Straights perhaps etc).
But as you say, gotta think outside the square and it's not a good look when we cannot help out.
So could the OPV's and Canterbury be used for anti-piracy ops as far away as Africa?
Both types have the range and endurance to stay at sea, I take it.
Both types can carry a helicopter, which is a very handy asset to have.
Both types, I understand, have modern comms systems etc. I keep seeing those diagrams in the Navy Today etc showing the Frigates, P-3's, OPV's, Canty (and LAV's I think) being able to rely secure data between allied countries and their HQ's etc.
Both types have space and accomodation for civilian agencies (and a small "marine" boarding party)?
But what do both types lack for such operations?
Would the search radars be sufficient for locating small vessels at distances? If not, how much is that an issue eg could larger warship "vector" in OPV's/Canty into an area of interest or would this be an additional burden for the larger warship? Or is this not an issue because they do that anyway?
Could search radars be upgraded (due to weight issues etc) or to what extent etc?
I think the OPV's/Cant's current bushmaster might be sufficient to counter a relatively unarmed mothership except IMO if a 57mm gun was fitted (as a 76mm won't fit I believe) that might be more advantageous in terms of range etc. (As one wouldn't want to be too close to a mothership and swarms of fast craft maneouvering around firing off HMG's or RPG's - the single bushmaster would have to cope with multiple targets or the guys manning the 50 cals would be kept busy)!
Toplites with 360 coverage (and mini-typhoons on the 50 cal mounts) would have to be a given surely!
Wonder what the def-pros think on whether it is worth the effort or do they think Frigates are the minimum (and thus save the money on OPV upgrades for something else)?
Yes - OPV's have arange of 6000nm with RAS capability & 21 day endurance. Other vessels on these patrols would be using a land-base somewhere in the region - RNZN could do the same.
Whether there's the will is more the point!
Yes - both types would be up to this task, although chopper would be essential, as would some additional embarked personnel to spead the workload.
Yes current weapons fit wouln't cope with a swarm - but that's more an issue for counter-terrorist patrol than anti-piracy patrol. While it can't be discounted experience show that the latter threat is far less co-ordinated & determined.
OPV & MRV don't have search radar - they each have commercial spec 'X' & 'S' band navigation radar. I'm no expert on radar but these do AFAIK offer fairly sophisticated target tracking etc out to a reasonable range, including tracking of air traffic. Not the sort of radar a combatant requires but suitable for low-level patrol. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of radar could comment!?!
And weapons - well Toplite & mini-typhoon with 360 degree surface coverage should be minm for OPV; MRV; & Frigates (& our tanker!). On thatpoint, how come RAN see the need for these but we don't seem to!?! Is it likely to be RNZN / NZDF naivety or MinDef / Govt pig-headedness!?!
Is there a minm spec for vessels on UN patrols? RN have used amphib vessels (but yes well armed!) & Polish Navy used a logistics support vessel of similar size & armement as RNZN future OPV's in the Gulf. I'm picking combatants are more commonly used in part simply because they're available - as well as being considered more suitable!
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This is the vessel that the Polish Navy used in the Gulf for a while, back in about 2004 from memory. Smaller than RNZN future OPV's and only marginally better armed, but almost certainly more military spec'd vessel with better survivability.
She was used for inshore patrol & mother ship to a fleet of smaller vessels (MCM or patrol, can't remember). US & Aussie forces spent a little time on board from memory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORP_Kontradmiral_Xawery_Czernicki
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I've been trying to find out the radar used for a while with no luck. However one of the issues highlighted with the MRV radar is that it can't track helicopters, which was a requirement in the RFP. I forget where I saw that (might have been scoop.co.nz). Realistically I think the MRV and OPV should be fitted with something like the Scanter 4100
A couple of months ago checked Canterbury out & noted she has Furuno radar antennae, but no idea what model(s). Yes one of the warranty issues was the radar didn't track helicopters - but I understand the issue was more specifically it didn't do it out to the range specified in the RFP. I understand that was one of the issues expected to be resolved - it may form part of the current mediation process.
A bit of browsing shows some of these Furuno Nav radars have up to 120nm range - I'm picking the Protector vessels have some of the higher-end models so one would assume they have a similar range!?!
As an aside recv'd latest 'Navy Today' news this morning - Defence Tech Agency are working on customising a suite that will "incorporate ESM capabilities in the navigation radar bands" (whatever that means) which "will enable quicker detection and identification of ships..". It will be fully automated and overlaid with existing radar & AIS inputs - whatever it is if it makes the patrol work more effective I'm all for it!
Also noted that DTA are developing a Kahu UAV system specifically for Navy to trial from one of the IPV's in 2010, so good to see RNZN moving into that space too!
I herd a while ago from a 'two and a half" (late 2006 I believe) that the D.T.A had already developed a UAV and where in a testing phase. Apparantly it had an extended mission range of other comparable UAV's of the time, and was built for about 3 thousand complete. Though I dont know what happened to the project as information just stopped comming through.
Army is apparently doing ongoing trials with Kahu UAV - this link is a year old but gives a good round-up:
NZ Army - UAVs in the New Zealand Army
I know there is/was a dedicated military airspace area in the Northern Wairarapa specifically set aside for UAV trials (from Linton no doubt).
The Navy News article (you would have seen it by now MattyEm!?!) mentions how the DTA are now looking at something for the Navy. For the benefit of others - the area they are specifically working on is the issue of how to retrieve it on-board without it getting 'damp'. The article goes on to say the same sort of precise retrieval system req'd by Navy may also assist Army in using UAV in confined spaces, such as on top of city buildings etc - good thinking!!!
I do wonder though why when there are proven systems out there we try to re-invent the wheel!?! Granted it's a lot cheaper - but it's also a much smaller unit than most and I wonder if it's robust enough!?! I doubt it will be inter-operable with ADF etc too.
Having said that it's clear from the article (see link) that it's proving more valuable than I give it credit for! I also understand that officially that the Kahu UAV project is about determing what the NZDF needs from a UAV and may not actualy be what is eventually used operationally - can anyone confirm!?!