Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[StingrayOZ]

Just curious is NZ currently interested in any of Australia's recent projects?

Such as the 7,000t future Anzac replacement or the 2,000t OCV? Has NZ started at looking at Anzac replacements?

 

[mattyem]

There has been talk around base about what comes after the anzac, although as of yet no serious projects are underway as far as I know.

At the moment the big issue regarding the anzacs is the half life upgrade. Te Kaha has just entered dry dock and is beginning her half life upgrade as we speak.

At the moment, the general consensus is that people are worried that the anzacs will be the last frigates NZ will have. The current defence force budget doesnt really allow us to go out and by new frigates, instead we have to jump in on deals like with the ANZAC's. Though we still have a few years yet to weigh up the situation and go from there.

Until project protector is sorted and in service, most other projects are sitting down the list

 

[KH-12]

Any thoughts on what is likely to happen with the OPV's, is an outright rejection by the MOD a possibility ? (the negiotiations are taking an awfully long time), in which case what would be a logical next step be to provide the capability.

 

[Lucasnz]

There has been talk around base about what comes after the anzac, although as of yet no serious projects are underway as far as I know.

At the moment, the general consensus is that people are worried that the anzacs will be the last frigates NZ will have. The current defence force budget doesnt really allow us to go out and by new frigates, instead we have to jump in on deals like with the ANZAC's. Though we still have a few years yet to weigh up the situation and go from there.

Until project protector is sorted and in service, most other projects are sitting down the list

It seems life goes around in circles. There was a lot of concern in the navy in the late 1980's about whether we'd even get one new frigate, especially after Southland's UK refit was cancelled.

New Zealand has traditionally maintained a combat force of some type, whether Cruisers or Type 12 or later frigates. I think that will continue to be the case long term.

But I raise the following for discussion - I was talking to an ex USN officer giving a guest lecture at Uni just after I left the navy and he challenged me - do we (NZ) actually need frigates? Personally I think we will always need at least 2 major combatants capable of high intensity operations.

Can I suggest that frigates since there reappearance in WWII have seen a disproporiate increase in capability compared to their precessors or even to a limited extent other classes of ship. If the capability creep is real and NZ is now buying the equivalent of a what would have been a cruiser when the frigate navy concept was developed in 1947, then maybe we need to debate what the navy needs in today's enivornment. Just that date (1947) alone suggests that the navy needs to debate internally, before the Defence review is finished its optimal structure.

An MOD audit report indicated that the AA / Mine / ASuW and ASW threats for early ANZAC frigate Gulf Deployments were low. If that's the case then do we need corvettes (as some senior rates in the navy in the late 80's early 90's thought), noting NZ's requirement for range, seakeeping and endurance. Looking closer to home and Canterbury's operations in East Timor (without first hand experience) suggest NZ needs a ship with limited all round capabilities in Air, Surface & Subsurface warfare.

Anyway a penny for ones thoughts

 

[swerve]

Lucas,

whatever NZ buys should have a very good range & endurance, as you say. Perhaps something along the lines of the Floreal class? Though a more modern ship of similar concept, not simply an updated Floreal. Or like the new Dutch 3750 ton OPVs, but with more armament?

 

[BLADE135]

How about the Project 28 ASW Corvette that was shown at 11th Defence Services Asia exhibition (DSA 2008).

Here is a link.
TRISHUL: Project 28 ASW Corvette Detailed

Project 28 Anti-submarine warfare Corvette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


This looks like a good buy with the exchange rate 1 INR = 0.0335002 NZD
You may be able to purchase more than two, there for expanding your fleet.
It would depend on the cost of fitout to the NZ Navy specs but I reckon it would be a lot less than buying a frigate and its dimensions aren't that much smaller than an ANZAC (displacement is 1100 tonnes off though).

Have a Nice Day

 

[Twickiwi]

How about the Project 28 ASW Corvette that was shown at 11th Defence Services Asia exhibition (DSA 2008).

In principle, I think this would work and would add another dimension to NZ's diplomatic/defence relationships. I think there are a number of commonalities to be exploited beyond the fact it would be economical.

However, Australia have put forward their requirement for a c. 2000t Offshore Combat Vessel and an ANZAC replacement of around 7000t. While I think it would be a big ask of the NZ electorate to go down the road of multiple 7000t Combat Vessels, and perhaps not the level of requirement NZ needs, the 2000t modular OCV would be an easier sell if configured "for, but not with" some of the more lethal (some would say more useful) systems.

The Ozzies will lean (in the nicest possible way) on NZ to up their capablities post white paper 2009, and I imagine one of the ways NZ might be expected to shoulder the burden would be to make up numbers in the ships-class projects outlined to increase the economies of scale.

I could imagine NZ taking 4 OCV; 2 with ASW/SAM suites, 2 with pared down offensive systems and MCM capabilities (but little more than OPVs unless re-equipt). The question is whether NZ could stretch to a single highly capable 7000t frigate/destroyer ANZAC replacement? It would give the navy a high/medium/low intensity combat force structure. Going with the Ozzies again means the NZDF would never have to face a Project Protector style farago alone again (not that I think Protector was all bad- at worst a busted flush).

Personally, I think NZ would be better served by 3-4 of the the Project 28 Corvettes and 2 Absalon style MRVs in addition to the current OPVs or what replaces them, but NZ not made out of money and without a clear and present danger motivating the Beehive, an increase in capability is merely a whimsical notion.

London has been very windy lately.
Twickiwi

 

[NOMAD]

Anyway a penny for ones thoughts[/QUOTE]

While I don't believe NZ will want/afford to tag along with an Aussie 7000t frigate, something along the lines of Singapore's Formidable class frigates even "if fitted for but not with" would make a powerful addition to the NZ Navy.

Anzac = 3600t

Formidable = 3200t

They have a variety of weapon systems and the range 700km.

Formidable Class Multi-Mission Frigates - Naval Technology

My thoughts Nomad

 

[swerve]

Anyway a penny for ones thoughts
Formidable = 3200t

They have a variety of weapon systems and the range 7000km.

The Formidables look like good ships for Singapore, but I think that the RNZN needs something with a longer range & endurance, because of New Zealands geographical position. Compare the French Floreal class, which has over twice the range, & was designed with South Pacific distances in mind.

NB. I'm not saying NZ should buy the Floreal class, only giving it as an illustration of the range possible for a modest-sized ship. I think something larger (at least the size of the Anzacs) & more heavily-armed would be more suitable.

 

[StevoJH]

The Formidables look like good ships for Singapore, but I think that the RNZN needs something with a longer range & endurance, because of New Zealands geographical position. Compare the French Floreal class, which has over twice the range, & was designed with South Pacific distances in mind.

NB. I'm not saying NZ should buy the Floreal class, only giving it as an illustration of the range possible for a modest-sized ship. I think something larger (at least the size of the Anzacs) & more heavily-armed would be more suitable.

Since most of the cost is going to be in the systems fitted to the ship rather then the hull itself, the RNZN could get the same basic ship as the RN but with less capable systems, for example fitting it with CEAFAR or Sea Girraffe rather then AUSPAR or whatever the Australian ships get. Possibly fitting less VLS cells etc.

 

[recce.k1]

But I raise the following for discussion - I was talking to an ex USN officer giving a guest lecture at Uni just after I left the navy and he challenged me - do we (NZ) actually need frigates? Personally I think we will always need at least 2 major combatants capable of high intensity operations.

My thoughts are similar - at least 2 (ideally 3 min) major combatants, for defence of NZ, Australia and for NZ's immediate area of responsibility (SW Pacific, Southern Ocean etc).

Granted the Cold War is over (where RNZN Frigates were tasked with the important ASW role) but the "Benign environment" that the previous Govt relied on for policy and direction is over. We are living in an era and setting where the Asian Powers are growing, and like Australia our approach to the likes of China should be continued positive engagement (eg in trade and commerce etc) but like Australia we should be carrying a large stick at the same time (well maybe a smaller stick in NZ's case)!

So what do we need? Endurance and long range, appropriate sensors, self defence systems and the ability to engage an enemy etc.

Could the proposed Aussie 7000t Frigate fit the bill? I don't know its details but at face value, sure why not! No-one has a problem with the RNZN's fleet tanker or sealift ship being several thousand tons so why should we worry about a Frigate being of a similar displacement?

NZ (and Australia) has learnt the lessons of having overweight Frigates (ANZAC's) and overweight OPV's (no future growth), so lets go larger. We may not necessarily have to have the full fitout as the Aussies (eg some systems could be fitted for but not with). We also have some pretty rough stretches of ocean (which has caused issues with the early ANZAC class etc).

Surely any prudent NZ Govt would jump on board the future ANZAC II project due to the offsets and gains to NZ businesses and the economy (plus future opportunities), so I don't see why following the RAN example would be a problem.

BUT ... I also agree/see that ideally the RNZN needs a second class of vessel, be that OPV, a new OPV type, Corvette or this Aussie OCV etc. We have a very, very large ocean to cover and a fleet of say 10 Frigates isn't practical from an economic perspective. How about a fleet of 6-10 Corvette/Patrol Vessels (I'll just call them OPV's for simplicity)? Really such vessels should be operating as some sort of Pacific patrol fleet (out of NZ's territories such as the Cook's) or possibly Samoa or Fiji (if relations were better).

Primarly roles would be usual agency roles eg customs and EEZ patrolling etc, secondary roles would be intelligence gathering and threat detection eg sub surface. Apart from sensors, self-defence systems would be important, pure offensive systems less so. So they wouldn't need to be armed as heavily as Frigates/Destroyers etc because in the event of an emeregency or degraded international relations, these eyes and ears on the surface would pass on any intelligence to the regional powers (eg US and Australia) for elimination or NZ ANZAC's or P-3 Orions etc. Hopefully having automated processes would reduce crewing down to OPV type levels etc.

It would be great to have a relatively cheap to produce OPV, modular (as Lucasnz advocates) so that they could easily re-roled for MCM or ASW detection and warfare etc. A 76mm calibre gun (fitted as standard) would take care of the most likely surface threats NZ (in this immediate region) would expect to encounter if international reations broke down. In the event it would be unlikely full warfighting warships would be spared to trouble NZ or the South Pacific (or most would be sunk before getting here), more like we'd be dealing with raiders and spy/intelligence gathering boats (fishing vessels etc).

However sub-surface threats (like in WW1/WW2 around NZ) would be a real issue for NZ, so alas, back to Cold War days the OPV's (and Frigates and P-3/P-8's) would need ASW detection systems and maybe just a simple torpedeo or motar system to counter an immediate threat.

Anti-air (and decent air search radars) probaly wouldn't be needed. Harpoon or similar probably wouldn't be needed either. Hopefully this would realise decent savings (bring costs down). But a self-defence gun/missile system/countermeasures would be necessary in case a disguised enemy ship fired off a lightweight anti-ship missile (geez if they can fit them to FIAC they can easily fit them to raider/fishing vessels etc)!

(Remember the Frigates would be for any serious threats, especially for outside of NZ's immediate region).

But as said before they would need modern comms and ISR etc, to pass on info to allies or NZ's combatant assets.

 

[recce.k1]

Since most of the cost is going to be in the systems fitted to the ship rather then the hull itself, the RNZN could get the same basic ship as the RN but with less capable systems, for example fitting it with CEAFAR or Sea Girraffe rather then AUSPAR or whatever the Australian ships get. Possibly fitting less VLS cells etc.

(I read your post after my previous one was posted etc).

Seems sensible to me.

So if the future ANZAC II is around 7000t and the future OCV is around 2000t, then either:

NZ buys dedicated replacment "Frigate" type vessels (what, say around 3000-4000t ?) which would mean we'd be looking at an OTS design, but we'd need a decent outlay of money, which in these economic times might be a little unlikely.

Or NZ joins the Aussies with the larger 7000t type Frigate (with fewer high-tech systems), which if a similar arrangement to the ANZAC's occured again, could mean greater participation for NZ industy and easier terms of payment. (Ok maybe 7000t is a tad on the high side, but as before, so what, just ensure there is accomodation for say 30-50 troops/SF and stores, like the Tenix/BAe OPV concept) and there's your sell to the masses - multirole Frigate, abit like the supposed MRV was supposed to have been - multi function etc).

Alas I somehow think the 2000t OCV wouldn't be large enough (weight/space/growth etc) as a formal RNZN ANZAC replacement, but with the Tenix/BAe OPV appearing to be too small in terms of displacement etc, then perhaps future NZ patrol vessels could be based on this future OCV design (with reduced combat fit out)?

Seems to me that the NZ Govt (which has recently indicated the need to look at ANZAC replacements as well as the P-3's and C-130's - which is good news etc) could easily sign up to the future ANZAC II project, with no real outlay in monetary terms needed for a number of years.

But in order to ensure NZ is policing the region better, could sign up for some decent low cost patrol vessels (OCV - mod'ed?) and make an enhanced contribution to collective security in these closer regions to home. The new BAe OPV's will be a welcome addition to the fleet but as reported these will have a lower in service life than planned and obviously have no real growth potential (again as reported).

 

[StingrayOZ]

Well I think both Australian projects will be interesting for NZ.

Firstly the ANZAC II (perhaps) will feature a large amount of Australian technology and a large amount of locally produced parts. I would imagine there would be excellent opportunities for NZ in that. These ships would be more suitable for longer patrols in rough open seas, international missions, and provide NZ with a very capable First tier asset. Surely we can all learn from past mistakes and not make small boats and then overload them, reducing their effectiveness. We are not situated in europe where smaller vessels might suffice. Why not purchase 2 of these ships (replacing the NZ ANZACS) inheriting some systems and enjoy a ship that will seemlessly tie into existing supplychain and upgrade solutions. The ANZAC experience in hindsight has not been a bad one and both countries have benifited.

For the OCV project, these would seem to be the type of ship NZ should have to protect its extensive EEC and perform missions to the island nations surrounding us. Concidering the number Australia may build (20), tapping 3 onto this order would give NZ a very capable group of ships with features our countries require.

 

[swerve]

I agree that piggy-backing on the Australian programme has advantages, & a couple of ANZAC IIs with systems appropriate to New Zealands requirements is probably the best option.

But if they do end up at 7000 tons (IIRC the Australian White Paper is not specific on size) & there is political resistance to such large ships, what other options are there? FM400? One of the MEKO variants? A more "military" version of the new Dutch OPV design?

 

[greenie]

Ahhhh, too be back on land again !!

Its good to think about the ANZAC replacements but more pressing is that Endevour has only 4 years left before the scrap yard, shortly followed by MAN and RES .
Four years is not long and my little birdy tells me that almost nothing has been done to sort this problem, anywhere!!

If we are talking about the multi rolling of ships try pondering the three main and other tasks the above ships carry out.

Ideas???

 

[harryriedl]

Ahhhh, too be back on land again !!

Its good to think about the ANZAC replacements but more pressing is that Endevour has only 4 years left before the scrap yard, shortly followed by MAN and RES .
Four years is not long and my little birdy tells me that almost nothing has been done to sort this problem, anywhere!!

If we are talking about the multi rolling of ships try pondering the three main and other tasks the above ships carry out.

Ideas???

Sounds like RNZN is the same postion as the canadians any chance of piggy backing on any candian replacement as their AOR are long overdue replacement and have had a painful experiance trying to replece them

 

[Gibbo]

Ahhhh, too be back on land again !!

Its good to think about the ANZAC replacements but more pressing is that Endevour has only 4 years left before the scrap yard, shortly followed by MAN and RES .
Four years is not long and my little birdy tells me that almost nothing has been done to sort this problem, anywhere!!

If we are talking about the multi rolling of ships try pondering the three main and other tasks the above ships carry out.

Ideas???

There's a couple of points I've picked up from 'NavyToday' magazine that points to Navy's thinking - wonder if they'll be picked up on by the review!?! Certainly nothing will be decided until the review is published!

From an edition last year it is clear Navy is thinking is that Endeavour's replacement should be a tanker / logistics support vessel - a bit like the MRV Canterbury that can offer RAS capability.

In the most recent (May 09) issue the editorial from CN againmnetions the need to think about the big E's replacement. It seems he is also suggesting that Manawanui & Resolution will be replaced with a single vessel, providing dive support; MCM; and inshore hydrograhy - a 'littoral warfare' vessel!?!

 

[Lucasnz]

RNZN lacks capacity to contribute to UN Anti Pirate Patrols

Found this article on xtra's website. Makes for interesting reading - I wonder if the OPV's could contribute something here?

Xtra Link to article

 

[Gibbo]

Found this article on xtra's website. Makes for interesting reading - I wonder if the OPV's could contribute something here?

Xtra Link to article

Pretty bad state of affairs when the RNZN can't even step-up to such a basic task. I agree the frigate should focus on current exercises, but maybe later on (given that this threat will likely be around for decades yet!).

This is exactly the role the OPV's have been designed for - they have an at sea endurance of about 20 days from memory but can RAS. They'd be ideal - but alas we all know that saga! IPV's wouldn't be suited due to range & endurance - logistics would just be too hard!

RAAF Orion is being deployed - wonder if NZDF has been asked for one? I think UN might get the same response on that too, even though the RNZAF should be capable of fielding one airframe & crew!

 

[Sea Toby]

Pretty bad state of affairs when the RNZN can't even step-up to such a basic task. I agree the frigate should focus on current exercises, but maybe later on (given that this threat will likely be around for decades yet!).

This is exactly the role the OPV's have been designed for - they have an at sea endurance of about 20 days from memory but can RAS. They'd be ideal - but alas we all know that saga! IPV's wouldn't be suited due to range & endurance - logistics would just be too hard!

RAAF Orion is being deployed - wonder if NZDF has been asked for one? I think UN might get the same response on that too, even though the RNZAF should be capable of fielding one airframe & crew!

Unfortunately the OPVs were designed more for fishery protection and EEZ patrols in the South Pacific, not half way around the world. They don't have the necessary endurance or sea keeping qualities for world wide deployments. A frigate is the minimum requirement, but for some reason New Zealanders refuse to buy more frigates.....