Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[Gibbo]

Navy News Feb09 - latest on IPV / OPV outlook

Just up on website today, latest Navy Today outlines the outstanding issues with IPV & OPV fleets. It suggests IPV's are not far off, OPV's main issue is weight (no surprises there!).

On the latter I suspect the only redress open to negotiation by the crown is financial (ie: a penalty). It'll be then down to Navy to draw up an operational management plan to mitigate the problem. :unknown


http://www.navy.mil.nz/know-your-navy/official-documents/navy-today/2009.htm

 

[Gibbo]

Just up on website today, latest Navy Today outlines the outstanding issues with IPV & OPV fleets. It suggests IPV's are not far off, OPV's main issue is weight (no surprises there!).

On the latter I suspect the only redress open to negotiation by the crown is financial (ie: a penalty). It'll be then down to Navy to draw up an operational management plan to mitigate the problem. :unknown

http://www.navy.mil.nz/know-your-navy/official-documents/navy-today/2009.htm

Actually there's some good updates on Canterbury's issues as well...

The RNZN sent an ANZAC down into ice-infested waters some years back and no such concerns were expressed at the time about the risk. The frigate got in real close to ice at times too! Are the ANZACs hulls anymore suited to that type of operation? If not then it would suggest a OPV certainly can make the trip as well wouldn't it!?!

Class 1C will only ever cover you for something like 3 months over the summer months anyway so it's not like these vessels are going to be used as ice-breakers!

But yeah that said, it should've never got to this!

 

[Sea Toby]

I suspect they will operate the OPVs in the Southern Ocean anyway, its just that they will have to watch their weight limits much more through the years. They have lost 100 tons of future displacement growth. One can easily forget adding more weapons aboard.

 

[Gibbo]

I suspect they will operate the OPVs in the Southern Ocean anyway, its just that they will have to watch their weight limits much more through the years. They have lost 100 tons of future displacement growth. One can easily forget adding more weapons aboard.

Yeah that's exactly what I think will happen, the vessels will get used largely as planned. RNZN will need to draw-up a comprehensive weight management plan but once in place it should be relatively simple to work to. It's going to largely be a case of making sure when equipment upgrades (HVAC etc) are performed that weight variations are managed correctly.

As you suggest it obviously precludes any significant additional weapons although there may be scope for a few smaller additions (mini-typhoons to replace manual .50 HMG etc) but I don't think we're ever going to see the OPV's up-armed significantly regardless of weight.

 

[Lucasnz]

Yeah that's exactly what I think will happen, the vessels will get used largely as planned. RNZN will need to draw-up a comprehensive weight management plan but once in place it should be relatively simple to work to. It's going to largely be a case of making sure when equipment upgrades (HVAC etc) are performed that weight variations are managed correctly.

As you suggest it obviously precludes any significant additional weapons although there may be scope for a few smaller additions (mini-typhoons to replace manual .50 HMG etc) but I don't think we're ever going to see the OPV's up-armed significantly regardless of weight.

Yes I have to agree that there will be no weapons upgrade for the OPV's. Time for a Patrol Frigate I think to meet South Pacific contingencies that require more decisive action.

 

[Sea Toby]

Yes I have to agree that there will be no weapons upgrade for the OPV's. Time for a Patrol Frigate I think to meet South Pacific contingencies that require more decisive action.

That probably won't happen until its time to replace the Anzacs, Te Kaha and Te Mana, purchasing them is still ten years away. If New Zealand can get more than 30 years out of the Leander class frigates, one could assume they will attempt to do the same with the Anzacs.

One thing is certain, New Zealand doesn't appear to be in any hurry replacing old assets. In my opinion the old Hercules and Orions require replacement before the much newer Anzacs even though they have seen recent upgrades.

 

[mattyem]

i dont thnk our hercs need replacing as such, they have been frequently upgraded and have many years left in them. They are a handy platform to have and the air forces boeings provides any capabilty that the hercs cant.

 

[Lucasnz]

That probably won't happen until its time to replace the Anzacs, Te Kaha and Te Mana, purchasing them is still ten years away. If New Zealand can get more than 30 years out of the Leander class frigates, one could assume they will attempt to do the same with the Anzacs.

One thing is certain, New Zealand doesn't appear to be in any hurry replacing old assets. In my opinion the old Hercules and Orions require replacement before the much newer Anzacs even though they have seen recent upgrades.

Personally I'd be surprised if the ANZAC's make 25 years the way the getting used. Buying now will extend the life of the ANZAC's and avoid the conflicting needs of having to run 4-5 major capital projects at once. New Zealand can not afford to buy 4 or possibly even 3 frigates at once. In fact we purchased the new build Whitbys and Leanders as single units rather than in batches.

In regards to the P-3 and C130 their is an element of truth in what you say. I have read a couple of articles that say while they've been upgraded obtaining parts for non-upgraded components (engines etc) is becoming harder. That also raises the seasprite issue for me.

I think that one of the roles of the LTDP should be to smooth out the capital acquisition process so that major projects to not place excessive stress on the capital acquistion budget. At the moment I don't think it does that.

 

[Gibbo]

HMNZS Canterbury open to public...

Tomorrow (Sat 28th Narch) only 2pm-4pm. In conjunction with Variety Bash.
Details in link...

http://www.navy.mil.nz/visit-the-fleet/cant/recent/280309.htm

 

[Todjaeger]

i dont thnk our hercs need replacing as such, they have been frequently upgraded and have many years left in them. They are a handy platform to have and the air forces boeings provides any capabilty that the hercs cant.

I have to disagree with this here... This is getting slightly away from the RNZN, but the Herc are due (overdue?) for replacement soon. They have been periodically upgraded, but they are rather old. IIRC the youngest of them is something like 41 years old. They have recently been upgraded, but this was largely to extend the service life another five years, by which point the oldest of the airframes would be approaching if not over 50 years old. The other reason behind the upgrade was to improve the service availability of the aircraft. AFAIK the Herc fleet had reach a point where out of five aircraft only one would be available for missions due to maintenance and reliability issues. 20% availability for the main airlifter fleet is something I consider a significant issue.

Personally I'd be surprised if the ANZAC's make 25 years the way the getting used. Buying now will extend the life of the ANZAC's and avoid the conflicting needs of having to run 4-5 major capital projects at once. New Zealand can not afford to buy 4 or possibly even 3 frigates at once. In fact we purchased the new build Whitbys and Leanders as single units rather than in batches.

In regards to the P-3 and C130 their is an element of truth in what you say. I have read a couple of articles that say while they've been upgraded obtaining parts for non-upgraded components (engines etc) is becoming harder. That also raises the seasprite issue for me.

I think that one of the roles of the LTDP should be to smooth out the capital acquisition process so that major projects to not place excessive stress on the capital acquistion budget. At the moment I don't think it does that.

I tend to agree with Lucasnz here. Given the pace of operations, as well as the extent of the RNZN Anzac fitout, I would expect them to be replaced at a roughly 25 year service mark. With that in mind, as well as how long it can take to commission a replacement design, the NZDF should start considering what the desired specifications for a follow-on to the Anzac should be like.

I also think that more time needs to be spent on determining both a NZDF White Paper as well as an LTDP. As I understand it, a LTDP is intended to determine the priority of funding so that the NZDF can meet the desired operational requirements while attempting to minimize the effect on the budget. IMO there will need to be some "sticker shock" just due to how much the NZDF budget has been cut back, but once that is done, then perhaps the pace of capital aquisitions can be planned for a more gradual pace. This would ease both budgetary pressures as well as the pressures the different services would have in inducting new vessels, vehicles, aircraft and kit into the different services. As has been mentioned, there has been concern within the RNZN about being able to effectively crew the Project Protector fleet. By adopting a more consistent and gradual equipment phase-in, this might allow for a sufficient build-up for the needed trades and trained personnel.

-Cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

Unfortunately, New Zealand's new defence buys are not keeping up to stretch out programs. For example during the past ten years the defence force has received 2 Anzacs, 2 OPVs, 4 IPVs, 5 Sea Sprites, the LAVs and LOHs, 2 Boeing 757 along with Mistral and Javelins. 8 NH-90 and 5 A-109 are forthcoming soon.

For the next ten to fifteen years New Zealand will require replacement of the P-3 Orions, C-130 Hercules, and trainer aircraft, much of the rest of the army's kit, along with a replenishment oiler and diving vessel. This is assuming replacement of equipment every 25 years. Keep in mind it took ten years to receive the frigates after ordering them with a joint Australia/New Zealand construction program.

The navy's big ticket items and the army's big ticket items were built during this time, leaving the air force's big ticket items for the next ten years. If the air force's big ticket items are not bought, then they will have to be bought during the next cycle along with the navy's and army's big ticket items will have to be replaced. Assuming equipment life of 25 years.

In summary, the New Zealand defence force needs to buy Orion and Hercules replacements during the next ten to fifteen years. Both aircraft will be more expensive than the helicopter and LAV buys.

Having not leased or purchased the air combat force during the past ten to fifteen years, the opportunity to buy them has passed, unless defence spending is increased significantly.

 

[Gibbo]

Tomorrow (Sat 28th Narch) only 2pm-4pm. In conjunction with Variety Bash.
Details in link...

http://www.navy.mil.nz/visit-the-fleet/cant/recent/280309.htm

Popped down & took a look onboard Canterbury - I know she's got issues but I must admit I was quietly impressed. She's spacious (well except for the 6 berth cabins perhaps!); has a serious looking 'hospital' - not just some fancy first-aid post; and the 'operations room' certainly looked like it'd do the job. Next door is a 'joint operations room' which I understand the embarked forces use - looks more like a classroom with PC's at every workstation, but looks up to the job!?! :unknown

Confirmed the Nav. Radar is a Furuno - fairly serious looking with overlays etc etc, but never got round to asking model; capability etc. Instead got engrossed as one of the officers showed me the EOSS in detail. Having never seen on in operation before I was real impressed!

Were able to zoom in on individuals in the nearby SkyTower observation deck & saw amazing thermal imaging of people & other vessels etc. He showed how even in daylight you can use the thermal camera to highlight active machinery spaces inside vessels (in this case the engine room of a container vessel moored 800m away). Can be used to highlight fishing boats that have been using winches etc...

The EOSS can traverse thru about 320 degrees - but does leave the stern hidden. There is however a camera (without thermal capability:unknown) above the flight-deck & we were able to zoom in on small boats moored about 2 km away with amazing clarity so yeah, I was impressed!

He confirmed that any attack from aft would be dealt with by small-arms, not perfect in my book ! I got the impression there's no SOP for that sort of scenario, hope I'm wrong!

Hmmm, and that 25mm bushmaster - not a bad piece of kit But yeah, weren't allowed to try that out for some reason :unknown

There was a lot of people visiting - good to see!

 

[Gibbo]

Popped down & took a look onboard Canterbury - .....!

Oh yeah and they had one of the new Zodiac RHIBs on the flight deck - wow they're a damned fine looking piece of kit! They've got an amazingly sophisticated looking dashboard, own radar etc. They've obviously not cut-corners getting a decent RHIB (well not 2nd time aorund anyway!)

 

[KH-12]

Does this mean we will see the IPVs brought into service soon now that the RHIB's have arrived ?

 

[dave_kiwi]

Yet another Maverick Firing

In the NZ Herald today - an article about a recent night firing of another live Maverick missile.

Seems like the RNZN / RNZAF couldn't get enough last year, so this year they added in the extra - NVG flying as well.

Good to see some of the recent capabilities introduced being put into practice.

Article:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10564225

Video:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/video.cfm?c_id=1&gal_objectid=10564225&gallery_id=105058

 

[Aussie Digger]

In the NZ Herald today - an article about a recent night firing of another live Maverick missile.

Seems like the RNZN / RNZAF couldn't get enough last year, so this year they added in the extra - NVG flying as well.

Good to see some of the recent capabilities introduced being put into practice.

Article:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10564225

Video:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/video.cfm?c_id=1&gal_objectid=10564225&gallery_id=105058

Or the weapons are running out of shelf life...

 

[greenie]

Or the weapons are running out of shelf life...

Hit the nail on the head!!!!

 

[KH-12]

Is'nt the Maverick something of an overkill weapon for the type of maritime tagets that you would potentially engage with the Seasprite , a decent modern warship that would warrant the weapon would probably shoot you down outside the release envelope, and using it on a small terrorist craft would be rather extreme unless you want to send a serious message !

 

[sandman]

Is'nt the Maverick something of an overkill weapon for the type of maritime tagets that you would potentially engage with the Seasprite , a decent modern warship that would warrant the weapon would probably shoot you down outside the release envelope, and using it on a small terrorist craft would be rather extreme unless you want to send a serious message !

Not at all.

There are levels of threat that fall between terrorist craft and Air Defence Cruiser.

There are many types of missile boats, corvettes, and light frigates throughout the Asian region. These would not only be easier a target, easier to kill/mission kill with one (relatively) small missile, but be a more realistic foe for a kiwi Anzac.

 

[dave_kiwi]

Not at all.

There are levels of threat that fall between terrorist craft and Air Defence Cruiser.

There are many types of missile boats, corvettes, and light frigates throughout the Asian region. These would not only be easier a target, easier to kill/mission kill with one (relatively) small missile, but be a more realistic foe for a kiwi Anzac.

Why limit it to maritime targets -- 12 to 25 km range (depending on altitude) is also very handy against any land targets -- not thinking about anything in particular -- but a certain South Pacific Island springs to mind .. plus maybe a bit of RNZN "tank" busting nfloorl: