Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

ngatimozart

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Probably, not interested in this particular 125m VARD vessel as it has been designed to quickly be able to be turned into a Frigate.

The OPV replacement nevertheless is not going to be replaced under this current government. But what we do know is that in the DCP19 (which has been accepted by the current opposition in a bi-partisan sense) is that the OPV's will have a 3rd Ice capable vessel added by 2027 and that the current OPV's will be replaced 5 years later.

Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel
Introduction into Service – 2027
Indicative capital cost: From $300–$600m

Offshore Patrol Vessel Replacement
Introduction into Service – 2032
Indicative capital cost: From $600m–$1b
So for a govt that always goes on about it's "green" credentials it puts the SOPV back another four years. Why doesn't that surprise me. I can see no reason why they can't have the SOPV FOC by 2022 / 23. It's just another lot of backsliding by the pollies.
 

milliGal

Member
So for a govt that always goes on about it's "green" credentials it puts the SOPV back another four years. Why doesn't that surprise me. I can see no reason why they can't have the SOPV FOC by 2022 / 23. It's just another lot of backsliding by the pollies.
I imagine the reason they have delayed it is to smooth out the capital expenditure profile, as the P8, C130J, and complementary maritime air surveillance are all due to be introduced (and paid for) by 2023.

As for the SOPV, the Canadian Harry DeWolf class seems like a perfect fit for the role they described in the DCP. It has a low level military fit out with the same armament as our current OPV's, is large enough to handle the southern ocean swells, has the capacity to host scientific and fisheries personnel, and has limited ice-breaker capabilities. I think it has been mentioned previously on here as a candidate for this role, but I thought it was worth mentioning again with all this talk of the VARD 125.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
The Hary Dewolfe class are a capable auxilliary vessel that has capabilities that would more than fulfill the needs of the RNZN as a southern ocean patrol vessel. The second of the class will hit the water by months end joining the lead ship which has been fitting out alongside since last August.

The ship is big and broad. Sea trials of Harry Dewolfe should begin soon and time will tell how good of a sea boat these ships will become. It would be nice to see the RCN take a trip to the southern ocean as a trial to see how they make out as a precursor to a sale to the RNZN. A test drive so to speak.

A hot transfer could then occur and the RCN order another to the benefit of Irving and the Nova Scotia economy.

With Nova Scotia being the home of immigrants to NZ that founded Waipu in the 1850s the relationship between our two nations would be continued. Just dont accept anything until hull three or four lol. Let the bugs get worked out first.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I imagine the reason they have delayed it is to smooth out the capital expenditure profile, as the P8, C130J, and complementary maritime air surveillance are all due to be introduced (and paid for) by 2023.
As well as a number of Army and NZDF projects over the next 5 years. Money is being spent, which I know is a shock to many - so I thought it would be useful to broach some of these out to 2025, amongst the more well noted ones.

Protected Mobility
Introduction into Service – 2024
Indicative capital cost: From $300m–$600m

Land Force Protection
Introduction into Service – From 2023
Indicative capital cost: From $25m–$50m

Garrison and Training Support Vehicles
Introduction into Service – From 2022
Indicative capital cost: From $100m–$300m

Tactical Mobility
Introduction into Service – 2024
Indicative capital cost: Less than $25m

Network Enabled Army – Combined Arms Task Group
Introduction into Service – Progressive rollout of Capabilities from 2019
Indicative capital cost: From $100m–$300m

Network Enabled Army – Sustained Combined Arms Task Group
Introduction into Service – Progressive rollout of Capability from 2019
Indicative capital cost: From $300m–$600m

Cryptographic Refresh
Introduction into service: 2019
Indicative capital cost: $25m

Maritime Satellite Surveillance
Introduction into Service – 2025
Indicative capital cost: TBC

Cyber Security and Support Capability
Introduction into Service - From 2021
Indicative capital cost: Less than $25m
Solution: Multiple small-scale projects

Tactical Remotely Piloted Aircraft
Introduction into Service – 2025
Indicative capital cost: From $25m–$50m

As for the SOPV, the Canadian Harry DeWolf class seems like a perfect fit for the role they described in the DCP. It has a low level military fit out with the same armament as our current OPV's, is large enough to handle the southern ocean swells, has the capacity to host scientific and fisheries personnel, and has limited ice-breaker capabilities. I think it has been mentioned previously on here as a candidate for this role, but I thought it was worth mentioning again with all this talk of the VARD 125.
I agree the Harry DeWolf / VARD 7 100ICE class ticks all the boxes. It is logical to assume that a modernised design evolution of its sister variant the VARD 7 100OPV would also be an attractive follow-on, to replace the current VARD 85OPV design.
 

ngatimozart

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Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Bought this over from the RN Thread.

The U.K.'s Pint-Sized Martlet Missile Will Guard Royal Navy Ships And Much More

"StobieWan, It looks like a really neat idea - fits right on the standard 30mm mount and puts 7 rounds of guided goodness at the operators finger tips, allowing engagements of light targets out to well beyond the 30mm round could reach to - either terminating the engagement at range or greatly expanding the range at which a target would be brought under fire.


Gets a thumbs up from me :) "


Should be something that we could look at fitting to our frigates, OPVs and anything else fitted with the 25 mm gun. Would make a lot of sense.
 

ngatimozart

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I see in the DCP 2019 that each of the Enhanced Sealift Vessels (ESV) has an intimated budget of $1+ billion. The wording in the DCP states LPD like or similar, from memory. That's a lot of LPD for $1+ billion even when you include the LCMs etc. So are we looking at LHDs?
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
I see in the DCP 2019 that each of the Enhanced Sealift Vessels (ESV) has an intimated budget of $1+ billion. The wording in the DCP states LPD like or similar, from memory. That's a lot of LPD for $1+ billion even when you include the LCMs etc. So are we looking at LHDs?
They're both about a decade + away so it's probably just a educated guess of what the likely price of a LPD will be a decade or more from now!?!
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
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I see in the DCP 2019 that each of the Enhanced Sealift Vessels (ESV) has an intimated budget of $1+ billion. The wording in the DCP states LPD like or similar, from memory. That's a lot of LPD for $1+ billion even when you include the LCMs etc. So are we looking at LHDs?
Not so much if it includes lifetime costs, which I think NZ now does.

oldsig
 

Calculus

Well-Known Member
I agree the Harry DeWolf / VARD 7 100ICE class ticks all the boxes. It is logical to assume that a modernised design evolution of its sister variant the VARD 7 100OPV would also be an attractive follow-on, to replace the current VARD 85OPV design.
Of note, the Harry DeWolf class (or, AOPV in RCN parlance) is actually an enhanced version of the VARD 7-100 ICE, built as a dual-purpose ship capable of arctic patrolling but also as an OPV. It is slightly heavier (6615 tons vs. 6400 tons), longer (103.6 m vs. 98 m), and more capable in ice (1.2 m vs 1.0 m). The extra capability in ice comes from the bow being built to PC4 standard, with the rest of the hull PC5. It also comes with fin stabilizers (retracted when operating in ice), which are especially welcome in open-ocean conditions. Given the areas within which the RNZN would presumably be operating (i.e a lot of open ocean, even if just transiting to the polar region) it may be a better option than the VARD 7-100 ICE, which was designed as an arctic patrol vessel only. Either version seems to fit the requirement, but the AOPV perhaps better than the baseline VARD design.

The AOPV is also quite capable from a systems perspective, with a lot of sig int and monitoring capability, which might be good for NZ from a Five Eyes intelligence gathering perspective. The following link to the LM Canada site gives some detail: Arctic and Offshore Patrol Ships
 
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Novascotiaboy

Active Member
The Martlet missle would be a great addition to the RNZN as well as many others who have chosen to underestimate the threats posed by irregular naval forces. Looking at the current state of weaponry aboard RNZN vessels the additiin to existing 25 mm mounts would be a marked improvement especially as it is a bolt on system.

The ability to also have the same missle as a single launcher for mobile forces to have a level of point defence against aircraft and drones adds to reduced overall cost of ownership.

Just think of a NZDF drone equipped with one of these missles standing off the port side of a vessel 50 km from its mother ship while directions to the vessel of interest are relayed via radio.

Quite the shot across the bow.
 

Rob c

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Verified Defense Pro
The Hary Dewolfe class are a capable auxilliary vessel that has capabilities that would more than fulfill the needs of the RNZN as a southern ocean patrol vessel. The second of the class will hit the water by months end joining the lead ship which has been fitting out alongside since last August.
My take on the Southern Ocean OPV is that sea keeping would be more important than heavy ice protection and that the Harry DeWolf class would be overkill on the Ice protection and too short in length for the sea conditions in the southern ocean which are unlike anywhere else in the world due to the ocean circumnavigating the bottom of the world ("the top" from our view point) without the blocking effect of large landmasses. I would expect a length significantly in excess off 110m, possibly even up to 130-140m.
 

ngatimozart

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My take on the Southern Ocean OPV is that sea keeping would be more important than heavy ice protection and that the Harry DeWolf class would be overkill on the Ice protection and too short in length for the sea conditions in the southern ocean which are unlike anywhere else in the world due to the ocean circumnavigating the bottom of the world ("the top" from our view point) without the blocking effect of large landmasses. I would expect a length significantly in excess off 110m, possibly even up to 130-140m.
The Canadian AOPV would be ideal in the Great Southern Ocean and it's not the length per se that is the inportan factor, but the ratio of the length to the beam that matters. Don't worry there can be some pretty mean seas on the RCN operating areas as well. Also the HDW class isn't overkill for NZ because it will allow is to get into areas that we haven't be able to before, not only for enforcement reasons but also for whole of govt support, and in the longer term dealing with enforcement of the Antarctic Treaty provisions and NZ soverignity claims.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
Your CNO has been to the HDW before her launching. Your personnel have been and may still be in Nova Scotia at LM facilities in Dartmouth learning about your new CMS aboard your refitted frigates at Seaspan. I am sure that any RNZN personnel here have been given a tour of HDW, or the Big Harry D, as she has been called.

At 103 m these vessels are not small. Their ISR systems are more than what you currently have installed on the OPVs.

The North Atlantic is not a place I want to be in a ship not capable of dealing with its ferocity. An example of how bad our waters can be was the movie "A Perfect Storm".

Cost will be an issue and Irvings products are not cheap. I believe that if you do go for an HDW please consider better armament than just a 25 mm Bushmaster and ensure full 360 degree coverage. I would like to think that the ship may find itself in areas with more threats than penguins and tooth fish poachers.
 

Rob c

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Verified Defense Pro
The Canadian AOPV would be ideal in the Great Southern Ocean and it's not the length per se that is the inportan factor, but the ratio of the length to the beam that matters. Don't worry there can be some pretty mean seas on the RCN operating areas as well. Also the HDW class isn't overkill for NZ because it will allow is to get into areas that we haven't be able to before, not only for enforcement reasons but also for whole of govt support, and in the longer term dealing with enforcement of the Antarctic Treaty provisions and NZ soverignity claims.
Length is important in regard to the wave cycle distance and in heavy seas a shorter than minimum ideal length can lead to excessive pitching and a tendency to nose into waves and suffer excessive water over the bow. I would suggest that speed may also be a factor due to the large area that needs to be covered. The criticism from some retired naval officers at the time the OPV's were being built was that they were too short for the southern ocean and that an absolute minimum length was in excess of 100m The problem appears to be not so much about surviving in these seas as about not beating the crew up too much.
 

ASSAIL

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Verified Defense Pro
Length is important in regard to the wave cycle distance and in heavy seas a shorter than minimum ideal length can lead to excessive pitching and a tendency to nose into waves and suffer excessive water over the bow. I would suggest that speed may also be a factor due to the large area that needs to be covered. The criticism from some retired naval officers at the time the OPV's were being built was that they were too short for the southern ocean and that an absolute minimum length was in excess of 100m The problem appears to be not so much about surviving in these seas as about not beating the crew up too much.
The Aurora Australis has been punching through the Southern Ocean for decades and there has been no adverse comments regarding her seakeeping, she’s 95m.
Her replacement however is much larger at 160m

Google Image Result for https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Aurora_Australis%2C_Fremantle%2C_2016_%2804%29.JPG
 
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Rob c

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The North Atlantic is not a place I want to be in a ship not capable of dealing with its ferocity. An example of how bad our waters can be was the movie "A Perfect Storm".
The north Atlantic is well known for some extreme storms, but the southern ocean has the highest average wind speed of any place on earth as the wind can blow unimpeded right around the globe (21000 km) at that latitude and a ship can be in storm conditions for a very long time. The challenge can be just keeping the crew in good condition
 

ngatimozart

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The north Atlantic is well known for some extreme storms, but the southern ocean has the highest average wind speed of any place on earth as the wind can blow unimpeded right around the globe (21000 km) at that latitude and a ship can be in storm conditions for a very long time. The challenge can be just keeping the crew in good condition
Length is important in regard to the wave cycle distance and in heavy seas a shorter than minimum ideal length can lead to excessive pitching and a tendency to nose into waves and suffer excessive water over the bow. I would suggest that speed may also be a factor due to the large area that needs to be covered. The criticism from some retired naval officers at the time the OPV's were being built was that they were too short for the southern ocean and that an absolute minimum length was in excess of 100m The problem appears to be not so much about surviving in these seas as about not beating the crew up too much.
When I posted my reply to you I was / am aware of the both the wave and atmospheric climate of the Southern Ocean. Yes it has an extremely large fetch, however there is an upper limit to the wave length of wind generated regardless of how long the fetch is. This limit is due to the maximum amount of energy that can be transferred to the water by the wind and that is determind by the wind velocity and the roughness of the waters surface.
 

Rob c

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Also the HDW class isn't overkill for NZ because it will allow is to get into areas that we haven't be able to before, not only for enforcement reasons but also for whole of govt support, and in the longer term dealing with enforcement of the Antarctic Treaty provisions and NZ soverignity claims.
I think you may find that the HDW cannot go much further than a normal Ice strengthened OPV as while it has the ability to take on 1.2m of ice, even in summer most of the pack ice is several metres think and requires a full blown Ice Breaker in company to achieve navigation to the continental land mass. Sub Antarctic island would be accessible to a normal OPV and rouge fishing or whaling vessels would not enter the pack ice.
 

ngatimozart

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I think you may find that the HDW cannot go much further than a normal Ice strengthened OPV as while it has the ability to take on 1.2m of ice, even in summer most of the pack ice is several metres think and requires a full blown Ice Breaker in company to achieve navigation to the continental land mass. Sub Antarctic island would be accessible to a normal OPV and rouge fishing or whaling vessels would not enter the pack ice.
The HDW class can go a lot further because they are Polar Class 5 (PC5) with and the current OPVs are 1C which doesn't even feature on the Polar Class table with 1A being PC7, Aotearoa is PC5. Rouge fishing or whaling vessels will enter areas where they believe that they won't be followed and there's nothing to stop them being ice strengthened, because in the end they are profit driven and they don't have the same qualms and considerations that legal fishing businesses do.

Polar Class 5 is Year-round operation in medium first-year ice which may include old ice inclusions, whilst 1C is in ice no thicker than 0.4 m and in summer months only, so a big difference with PC5 ships able to operate in ice 3 times the thickness of 1C ships and not restricted to the summer season. Also referring to your comment regarding the pitching etc., and comfort at sea, you actually get used to it and can deal with it in most cases. The Lake class patrol boats were not good boats in that regard and Cook Strait & Foveaux Straits aren't the calmest pieces of water in the world. However, from what I have heard through the grapevine the current OPVs aren't to bad in the Southern Ocean. You also have to remember that sailors are a tough breed and not used to the comforts that airmen take for granted. There's an old adage that if you can't take a joke you shouldn't joined and that applies today as much as it did back when you and I were taking the Queens shilling and supporting the local brewery.


Source: AMAIRNE - SHIP ICE CLASS
 

alexsa

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The HDW class can go a lot further because they are Polar Class 5 (PC5) with and the current OPVs are 1C which doesn't even feature on the Polar Class table with 1A being PC7, Aotearoa is PC5. Rouge fishing or whaling vessels will enter areas where they believe that they won't be followed and there's nothing to stop them being ice strengthened, because in the end they are profit driven and they don't have the same qualms and considerations that legal fishing businesses do.

Polar Class 5 is Year-round operation in medium first-year ice which may include old ice inclusions, whilst 1C is in ice no thicker than 0.4 m and in summer months only, so a big difference with PC5 ships able to operate in ice 3 times the thickness of 1C ships and not restricted to the summer season. Also referring to your comment regarding the pitching etc., and comfort at sea, you actually get used to it and can deal with it in most cases. The Lake class patrol boats were not good boats in that regard and Cook Strait & Foveaux Straits aren't the calmest pieces of water in the world. However, from what I have heard through the grapevine the current OPVs aren't to bad in the Southern Ocean. You also have to remember that sailors are a tough breed and not used to the comforts that airmen take for granted. There's an old adage that if you can't take a joke you shouldn't joined and that applies today as much as it did back when you and I were taking the Queens shilling and supporting the local brewery.


Source: AMAIRNE - SHIP ICE CLASS
Good day folks. It is hard to marry up a class notation and the Polar Code/Polar Class notations.

The Ice Class 1A etc is a class notation issued by a classification society. The DNV figures are related to ther class assignement for polar and ice ships. in addition to this you have the russian RS Arc notation and an absolute bunch of disperate rules adopted by different classification societies .....

http://www.bsis-ice.de/material/table_iceclasses.pdf

The IACS (international Association of Classification Societies) represent a common set of rules members can use (or evolve) noting this includes DNV and this is the Polar Class notation shown in your table.

The new international base line is the Polar Code (adopted in 2015 and now mandatory) and it uses the Polar Class based on an IACS unified interpretation. This set of rules breaks the scantling category into A, B and C (scantling is ship structure) relating to

A = covers PC1 to 5
B = covers PC6 and 7
C = covers everyhting else noting a ategory C ship need not be ice strengthened if, in the opinion of the Administration, the ship's structure is adequate for its intended operation.

The machinery requirements are divided into the diferent PC levels as above but there is no detailed requirements for Class C.

There is a bunch of other stuff but that at least gives and idea of the differences in the regulatory world and what the current 'standard' is. The Polar Code will the regulatory bench mark (even if the vessel still has one of the plethora of class notations) for the foreseeable future.
 
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