Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[MrConservative]

Good morning Mr Conservative,

Thank you for the information about 14 Squadron. You are right regarding the importance of deterence, and the benefits that an overwatch capibility provides troops on the ground.

Wonder also if anyone can confirm the last time our Navy fired at a target during a conflict.

Thanks for any information.

Yours Faithfully
Catalina

You can read about it here Catalina

http://navymuseum.co.nz/hmnzs-hickleton-in-action-1966-the-confrontation/

The final hostile naval action of Confrontation occurred on the morning of 28 June 1966. The action took place near the Horsburgh Light at the eastern end of the Singapore Strait, when HMNZS Hickleton intercepted a kumpit [the naval term for a sampan] carrying three, uniformed men and a boatsman.

 

[Catalina]

The final hostile naval action of Confrontation occurred on the morning of 28 June 1966.

Thank you MrConservative.

When one reads of the life and death nature of the struggles our service personnel perform to keep us, our values, and the stability upon which they depend, safe, at the risk of their lives, health and futures, one is filled with a deep sense of gratitude.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Yours Faithfully
Catalina

 

[ngatimozart]

Thank you MrConservative.

When one reads of the life and death nature of the struggles our service personnel perform to keep us, our values, and the stability upon which they depend, safe, at the risk of their lives, health and futures, one is filled with a deep sense of gratitude.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Yours Faithfully
Catalina

During the East Timor Operation in 1999, an Indonesian sub was taking an undue interest in the maritime part of the operation so the frigate Canterbury, (from memory) chased it down and convinced it that it suddenly remembered that it had pressing business elsewhere. No torpedoes, depth charging or gunfire were used, but I hear that it may have been on the receiving end of a sonar lashing.

 

[Exkiwiforces]

During the East Timor Operation in 1999, an Indonesian sub was taking an undue interest in the maritime part of the operation so the frigate Canterbury, (from memory) chased it down and convinced it that it suddenly remembered that it had pressing business elsewhere. No torpedoes, depth charging or gunfire were used, but I hear that it may have been on the receiving end of a sonar lashing.

I don’t have a reference for it ie my notes from orders etc, but from memory the Indonesian sub actually had two bites of the cherry and the old girl creeped up on the sub on both occasions blasted it with every sonar it had. I’ve been told from a mate who was the chief flag waving or his 2/ic that the F421 trap the sub in one of the many undersea trenches system that lay off Dili until it left Timor-Leste’s 12 mile limit. By rights F421 could’ve fired a torpedo IAW it’s RoE from I’ve been told.

Anyway it cause a bit of flap with Dili with the dusting off of plans to spilt our unit in half and deploy it to Bacuau which had a longer runway for P3 and A4-k’s operation. Anyway after the second contact with old F421 we never heard from any TNI unit again apart from the shenanigans down on the border.

On a side note F421 should’ve been kept as a museum piece after the we turned down the old Achilles in the 60’s.

 

[milliGal]

The RNZN twitter account released a nice video of MAG58 machine gun practice from the SH-2G(I) Seasprites. Worth a watch.

Royal NZ Navy on Twitter

 

[Tasman]

I was surprised this morning to see the current HMNZS Canterbury sailing into Hobart. I had expected her to remain in Northern waters to support the Talisman Sabre amphibious exercise and transport the Kiwi contingent home.

Tas

 

[milliGal]

NZ has reportedly expressed interest in the type 26 program, with a deal likely to involve 2-3 vessels

It is probably not worth reading too much into this, as any decision is still a long way off. However most discussion on here seems to assume we will go for the cheaper type 31 so I thought it was worth noting that interest has been expressed in the higher end future frigate.

Speaking of the type 31, the savetheroyalnavy website put out a nice breakdown on the Arrowhead 140 option recently too.

 

[MrConservative]

NZ has reportedly expressed interest in the type 26 program, with a deal likely to involve 2-3 vessels

It is probably not worth reading too much into this, as any decision is still a long way off. However most discussion on here seems to assume we will go for the cheaper type 31 so I thought it was worth noting that interest has been expressed in the higher end future frigate.

Interesting that Boris Johnson reports NZ may get into the Type 26 program or is very much in favour of us doing so. Leadership rival Jeremy Hunt has listed a £15B additional CapEx injection over the next 5 years as a priority - though Johnson has not put a number on it I don't think he will be be as dovish as Mrs Mayhem.

The Type 26 in RNZN commission throws up all sorts of possible pathways with respect to CMS, radar and shipyard. A number of New Zealand companies have pre-qualified for the Hunter Class, LM Canada have been integrating the CMS and CAMMS and the UK would probably like to get those 9th and 10th hulls built on the Clyde which should lower their projects acquisition throughputs.

 

[hauritz]

You might see all three versions of the type 26 offered to the New Zealanders although it would seem that the British version might be the best candidate.

 

[ngatimozart]

Interesting that Boris Johnson reports NZ may get into the Type 26 program or is very much in favour of us doing so. Leadership rival Jeremy Hunt has listed a £15B additional CapEx injection over the next 5 years as a priority - though Johnson has not put a number on it I don't think he will be be as dovish as Mrs Mayhem.

The Type 26 in RNZN commission throws up all sorts of possible pathways with respect to CMS, radar and shipyard. A number of New Zealand companies have pre-qualified for the Hunter Class, LM Canada have been integrating the CMS and CAMMS and the UK would probably like to get those 9th and 10th hulls built on the Clyde which should lower their projects acquisition throughputs.

You might see all three versions of the type 26 offered to the New Zealanders although it would seem that the British version might be the best candidate.

As far as I am concerned any variant of it would not be in NZDF's best interest, purely because of the procurement cost. What we would spend on two of those, we could acquire three and a bit more equally capable ships elsewhere, such as South Korea or Singapore.

 

[milliGal]

Janes followed up on the story and it seems like the Hunter-class variant is the model in question, so it would most likely be an Australian build.

This would make sense from a number of perspectives, with interoperability with the RAN being key. Having the Canadian and British builds as options is definitely a big plus though, and would add to our negotiating power. I can't see the NZ government as being too keen on spending several billion per ship though, so the costs would have to come down somehow (e.g. by going for a lower end sensor/weapons load-out, in which case you have to wonder, why go for the type 26 at all).

Any decision is still around a decade away according the DCP, and a lot can happen in that time. I guess we can have fun speculating in the mean time.

 

[MrConservative]

Before we get too excited about the Type 26 one must remember that the "interest" from New Zealand has been generated by the BAE PR machine.

Yes the RNZN has had a watching brief on the Type 26 programme since 2011 and that some NZDIA members have been pre-qualified as suppliers for the Hunter build. However the rules surrounding NZ Govt acquisition make it difficult for a sole selection. It will be a beauty contest and the competitive tension that eventuates.

What will happen is that probably following the next DWP in 2022 an RFI will be released to industry and a range of contenders will emerge. I would say that all possible variants of the Type 26 will be offered, as well as solutions from other Asian and European designs as well as the winner of the US Navy FFG(X) whom will also be paraded to us with enthusiasm.

 

[hauritz]

Janes followed up on the story and it seems like the Hunter-class variant is the model in question, so it would most likely be an Australian build.

This would make sense from a number of perspectives, with interoperability with the RAN being key. Having the Canadian and British builds as options is definitely a big plus though, and would add to our negotiating power. I can't see the NZ government as being too keen on spending several billion per ship though, so the costs would have to come down somehow (e.g. by going for a lower end sensor/weapons load-out, in which case you have to wonder, why go for the type 26 at all).

Any decision is still around a decade away according the DCP, and a lot can happen in that time. I guess we can have fun speculating in the mean time.

If something like the Type 26 was considered would NZ really want all the bells and whistles to go with it?

Would they even want AEGIS and SM2 missiles. The British version with 48 SeaCeptors might be closer to what they need and even then they would have to work out how to fill the 24 MK41 VLS canisters.

NZ would probably prefer a stripped back GP version of the Type 26 which to be honest is probably what the British should go with rather than the proposed Type 31.

 

[alexsa]

Before we get too excited about the Type 26 one must remember that the "interest" from New Zealand has been generated by the BAE PR machine.

Yes the RNZN has had a watching brief on the Type 26 programme since 2011 and that some NZDIA members have been pre-qualified as suppliers for the Hunter build. However the rules surrounding NZ Govt acquisition make it difficult for a sole selection. It will be a beauty contest and the competitive tension that eventuates.

What will happen is that probably following the next DWP in 2022 an RFI will be released to industry and a range of contenders will emerge. I would say that all possible variants of the Type 26 will be offered, as well as solutions from other Asian and European designs as well as the winner of the US Navy FFG(X) whom will also be paraded to us with enthusiasm.

Agree the future DCP is key as it 'should' detail the percieved threats and needs. Noting the limited budget I agree the T26 seems like a long shot but if the threat is considered greater then the my be consideration of a more capable ship that can act independently or on comjunction with allies (Australia being the closest). It is all speculation at the moment and we can naval gaze to our hearts content until the DCP comes out.

As a side issue I cannot see how the FFG(x) is going to be significantly more competitive than the T26 noting it will be in production by the time NZ are hunting for new vessels. Both are not going to be cheap.

 

[MrConservative]

Agree the future DCP is key as it 'should' detain the percieved threats and needs. Noting the limited budget I agree the T26 seems like a long shot but if the threat is considered greater then the my be consideration of a more capable ship that can act independently or on comjunction with allies (Australia being the closest). It is all speculation at the moment and we can naval gaze to our hearts content until the DCP comes out.

As a side issue I cannot see how the FFG(x) is going to be significantly more competitive than the T26 noting it will be in production by the time NZ are hunting for new vessels. Both are not going to be cheap.

The Anzac replacement, along with the P-8A, are now seen as our future "benchmark" global capability contributions to higher level combat operations. The Polar Class AOR and 1 NZSAS Regt are viewed in a similar vein. The Type 26 or the FFG(X) for that matter are less a long shot for the very reason you state - being able to fully operate within our closest FVEYS allies.

Like the P-8A the decision it will be taken through a long term lens and that long term lens also includes security of support/sustainability - an important part of business case evaluation - in a nutshell this means who will still be with us 30 years downstream through the life of the project. Lesson learnt from the CY when we bought from a shipyard Merwede who promptly were out of business once the ship was delivered.

With respect to the budget, the funding of the RNZN Future Frigate Programme is not within the current DCP period out to 2030. It will be substantially within the next 10 year period from 2030-2040 and first cab off the rank. Though initial appropriations will be made later next decade, the big cheques wont be written out until after 2030.

 

[John Fedup]

As the frigate replacement program is years away, NZ has lots of time to see how the various T26 and FFG(X) builds progress. Nice situation to be in frankly. The geopolitical situation might be quite different 10 years from now and if it deteriorates then the need for a higher end frigate in greater quantities may require pollies to step up. Of course a cooling in the AsiaPacific situation will certainly allow them to minimize defence, an opportunity pollies will certainly take advantage of. Regarding the possible T26 selection, Canada can’t be ruled out as LM Canada’s CMS is something NZ is familiar with and it is a significant component.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

I will be very surprized if NZ goes with T26 of any variant. A south Korean build is more likely regardless of the geo political situation. Dollars will rule and with thirty years of experience with SK builds its a quality well known by the RNZN and the GONZ.

There are currently and will most likely be some very refined designs available by the time the ANZAC replacement program gets underway.

There are other naval issues for the RNZN that need to be hashed out before the frigates get dealt with.

With this in mind, now that Manawanui is in country and being readied for service this fall has there been any pics taken of the process alongside? Are the new small craft aboard? Have HMG mounts been installed? What is the anticipated date for sea trials to start?

Haven't seen any recent photos of Aotearoa? She must be out of the dry dock and alongside fitting out now.

 

[htbrst]

Haven't seen any recent photos of Aotearoa? She must be out of the dry dock and alongside fitting out now.

From her page on the navy website she was floated in the dry-dock on 24th of April :

RNZN - Aotearoa

 

[OPSSG]

The frigate is the workhorse for many navies, in part due to the requirement for Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW). Navies are also investing in a range of ASW capabilities, from helicopters to sonar to torpedoes. Deploying frigates to areas of concern is central to supporting national status and securing strategic interests, such as, SLOCs, maritime territory and EEZ resources. The ASW requirement, explains the increasing emphasis on frigate procurement across the region. For example, Australia’s nine new frigates procured under the Sea-5000, to eventually replace its eight ANZAC class frigates. While European naval force levels have been on a downward trend since the 1990s, the Hunter class programme is one of several examples across Western navies where platform numbers are increasing again.

I will be very surprized if NZ goes with T26 of any variant.

Why? It’s a design that is being matured by multiple navies. For my perspective, BAE is the front runner, though affordability is a concern, given how little the NZ Government are willing to spend. We will have to see what the very competent NZ Defence Minister, Ron Mark, can pull out of his bag of tricks.

The Type 26 in RNZN commission throws up all sorts of possible pathways with respect to CMS, radar and shipyard. A number of New Zealand companies have pre-qualified for the Hunter Class, LM Canada have been integrating the CMS and CAMMS and the UK would probably like to get those 9th and 10th hulls built on the Clyde which should lower their projects acquisition throughputs.

If the Royal New Zealand Navy‘s goal is to replace the ANZAC class with 2 new frigates — the Hunter class design at 8,800 tons and 149.9 m (492 ft) in length, should be more than enough to deliver the required sovereign capability — BAE Systems Australia has confirmed a potential move to position the company's Hunter-class frigate design for the Royal New Zealand Navy. Interoperability with the Australians for ASW and other high end naval roles is an important consideration.

But if the goal is to grow the NZ fleet numbers to 3 frigates or more, it’s a different ball game for ST Marine (with their 5,000 ton multi-role Vanguard 130 design) at the 2030 RFI stage. IMO, to sustain a 3xx number of days per year at sea for a navy (after catering for the dry docking and mid-life upgrades), it is almost inevitable for the NZ Government to consider the impact of the use of full crew simulators on defence outputs (i.e. acquiring 3 frigates).

If 3 ships are acquired by NZ, be it from BAE or ST Marine, these ships and the use of best practices from the host navy, would add robustness to the ASW capabilities of any Australian-NZ or FPDA task group, should the need arise.

A south Korean build is more likely regardless of the geo political situation. Dollars will rule and with thirty years of experience with SK builds its a quality well known by the RNZN and the GONZ.

I don’t think so — not as in lowest platform purchase price alone but lowest total ownership cost to raise, train and sustain a capability. The frigate replacement’s beauty contest in the future (in the 2030s) is not remotely like that of commercial ship building.

Beyond technical considerations, at this stage there are strategic ones (eg. alignment of National Interests, enhancing navy to navy relations for training and support following from a down-select of a 2030 design and what would be ‘given’ free under existing defence agreements). This includes the Enhanced Partnership was launched through a Joint Declaration by PM Jacinda Ardern and PM Lee Hsien Loong in May 2019. If ST Marine is able to win the contract in the mid-2020s for an additional sealift vessel as required under DCP 2o19 (likely based on the JMMS design), they have a chance to bid for the replacements for the ANZAC class. As DCO 2019 states, commonality with ADF makes sense and eases long term support concerns and aling with an alignment of commercial interests: “....To realise the full value of these upgrades, the frigates’ expected service life will be extended past 2030. This decision has been supported by independent analysis of the vessels, which has demonstrated that they are supportable for a greater period of time than previously anticipated.” Let me extract other parts of the 2019 DCP, below for ease of reference:

“....Recognising the high value of sealift to humanitarian and disaster relief, and the sustain-ment of deployed forces, in the mid-2020s an additional sealift vessel will be acquired. Operating alongside HMNZS Canterbury, this acquisition will provide two sealift vessels, and will greatly improve the effectiveness of the Defence Force, and the resilience of the nation, and the region.

• The enhanced sealift vessel will have greater lift capacity than HMNZS Canterbury. The capability will provide a highly flexible military asset, including hospital facilities, planning spaces, and self-defence capabilities. It will also provide support for the deployment of a range of capabilities, including Special Forces, Unmanned Aerial Vehicles and NH90 helicopters. The enhanced sealift capability will also improve the New Zealand Defence Force’s amphibious operations. Through the provision of a well dock, it will be able to conduct operations in a wider range of sea conditions, and will have the size and capacity to carry large equipment, and sufficient aviation capacity to allow extended, long duration operations. Its size will also provide for the transport of a larger number of personnel, allowing for the value of the increased size of the New Zealand Army to be realised.

....The Government has already made a significant investment in the ANZAC frigates, Te Mana and Te Kaha. These upgrades have been undertaken to ensure that the frigates remain world-class maritime combat capabilities for the full duration of their service, and include:

• ... Platform Systems Upgrade, focused on the replacement of propulsion diesel engines, upgraded cooling systems, and new platform management and....”

There are currently and will most likely be some very refined designs available by the time the ANZAC replacement program gets underway.

Agreed.

There are other naval issues for the RNZN that need to be hashed out before the frigates get dealt with.

With this in mind, now that Manawanui is in country and being readied for service....

Please explain how these issues are linked to a frigate capability replacement exercise. I don’t understand and some additional details will help me understand.

 

[Gibbo]

From latest Navy Today magazine - Counter Explosive Hazards (CEH) Project

HMNZS MATATAUA will soon be benefiting from new Explosive Ordnance Disposal capability, as part of a New Zealand Defence Force upgrade to support Land, Maritime and Special Operations. The Counter Explosive Hazards (CEH) Project will establish a sustainable and robust expeditionary CEH Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) capability across NZDF.

This will include three expeditionary Maritime teams at MATATAUA, capable of Maritime Explosive Ordnance Disposal, Maritime Improvised Explosive Device Disposal, Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear detection, and Explosive Search and Detection. MATATAUA is responsible for responding to all explosive threats in the ‘littoral’ environment, meaning threats on a shore or coastal region that would render a maritime force vulnerable. This includes naval and non-naval vessels, port facilities and their immediate environs.

The project aims to enhance the interoperability between domestic EOD, existing as an Army unit, and deployable Defence Force CEH teams. A priority of the project is the creation of a Maritime and Land joint capability, using the latest technologies and tactics, to ensure high levels of national and international compatibility. The new capability is intended to be bespoke, specific to NZDF, but there will be a strong focus on partner nations’ compatibility and interoperability.

New Zealand has an obligation under UN Conventions to clear away, make safe, or destroy explosive remnants of war (including unexploded ordnance and abandoned explosive ordnance) and surplus munitions.

These days of course a 'new capability' can be as little as a name change & a new CO thru to a new vessel and associated equipment, so the devil is in the detail! Of interest I wonder what 'latest technologies' will include. I've always felt the RNZN needs to have a greater MCM capability - particularly in respect of remote tools for the 'disposal' aspect rather than what seems to be an over-reliance on clearance divers. I appreciate the divers are and always will be a critical component of MCM capability but while REMUS, which is used widely, does the 'detection', what about removing divers from the 'disposal' phase as much as practicably possible?

The beauty of modern MCM capability is that is is now very modular meaning it can be deployed from a range of vessels and no longer requires a dedicated MCMV with low magnetic signature and shock-resistant hulls, as these days the vessel can stand-off & deploy remotely operated vehicles. However I'm not that sure this announcement is signifying any substantial change to RNZN's MCM capability but will watch it unfold with interest.