Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
That will be fun. It must be, oh, six months since the last politician was turfed out of our Parliament for having even long forgotten citizenship of another country. Jacinda would be a relief. No argument, no delays, no court cases, just kick her back across the water to freeload on her own electorate.

oldsig
Funny you should say that Old Sig as by this October after 2 years in the job Jacindarella will be eligible to collect her substantial post PM sinecure which includes a six figure salary, domestic and international travel, access to chauffeur driven Crown cars and ongoing DPM&C support - for life. If she karks it before her partner Jeffro - he picks up most of the privileges as well, which would be better spent on hiring more Navy staff ( desperate attempt at drawing the RNZN into making this post RNZN related ;)). That is probably why he is so keen to marry her asap to cross the t's and dot the i's. Basically she won Lotto when Winston selected her to be PM.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Funny you should say that Old Sig as by this October after 2 years in the job Jacindarella will be eligible to collect her substantial post PM sinecure which includes a six figure salary, domestic and international travel, access to chauffeur driven Crown cars and ongoing DPM&C support - for life. If she karks it before her partner Jeffro - he picks up most of the privileges as well, which would be better spent on hiring more Navy staff ( desperate attempt at drawing the RNZN into making this post RNZN related ;)). That is probably why he is so keen to marry her asap to cross the t's and dot the i's. Basically she won Lotto when Winston selected her to be PM.
How good of a job do you think Winston Peters be at implementing defence policy as PM?
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
How good of a job do you think Winston Peters be at implementing defence policy as PM?
If he actually implements his parties defence policy then fine. They were the only party to attempt to address the strategy-force mismatch with respect to required defence capabilities. Labour would happily return to the early 2000's outlook which was policy blue-printed 10 years earlier and centred around white hat virtue signalling to Guardian readers. National will only ever do enough to avoid offshore criticism and avoiding offending anyone before quickly changing the subject to trade as defence is in the liabilities column of the balance sheet. ACT no longer has a defence policy but just outsources to National with vague statements as maintain and strengthen our traditional alliances. Greens defence policy would only work if everybody everywhere had the same defence policy and the world was one big Hobbiton without the Mordor's and Angmar's to contend with.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Potential top weight issues aside, they need to close the loop with a SSM capability outside of SH2G mounted penguin.
Yep and that will create more top weight issues, similar to what the RAN ANZACs have. Unfortunately, given the political leanings of the current govt, a SSM capability is not going to happen.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
14 May 2019 - ST Marine has unveiled its design for the Vanguard 130 Multi-Role Combatant at IMDEX. It is part of a series of five classes (of different lengths at 80m, 95m, 105m, 120m and 130m) that delivers multi-modal capabilities with one design. This enables enhanced cost efficiencies across the platforms as all five classes share common hull forms that reduce acquisition costs and seems to be targeted at the future requirements of the New Zealand and Singapore navies. Because of its highly scalable and modular design, the Vanguard allows operators to exercise more flexibility in the ship’s deployment, including space for carrying of unmanned vehicles for warfare or other operations. The in-house developed and patented Q-LARS 2.0 for handling a wide range of small crafts and unmanned surface vehicles can be easily adapted for use in every Vanguard series vessel.

DEFENSE STUDIES: ST Engineering Opens IMDEX 2019 with New Designs and Solutions for International Maritime Defence
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Potential top weight issues aside, they need to close the loop with a SSM capability outside of SH2G mounted penguin.
Two x deck mounted twin box launchers wired up for NSM including missile load-out adds a further 5500kg's when loaded out. With the removal of the Mk41 VLS with 8 RIM-7's saw around 16000kg cut. Thus it would be interesting to see if it is still plausible in an engineering sense to fit at least 2 twin deck launcher's in that former VLS real estate noting the various weight distributions, additions and reductions around the platform post system upgrade.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
14 May 2019 - ST Marine has unveiled its design for the Vanguard 130 Multi-Role Combatant at IMDEX. It is part of a series of five classes (of different lengths at 80m, 95m, 105m, 120m and 130m) that delivers multi-modal capabilities with one design. This enables enhanced cost efficiencies across the platforms as all five classes share common hull forms that reduce acquisition costs and seems to be targeted at the future requirements of the New Zealand and Singapore navies. Because of its highly scalable and modular design, the Vanguard allows operators to exercise more flexibility in the ship’s deployment, including space for carrying of unmanned vehicles for warfare or other operations. The in-house developed and patented Q-LARS 2.0 for handling a wide range of small crafts and unmanned surface vehicles can be easily adapted for use in every Vanguard series vessel.

DEFENSE STUDIES: ST Engineering Opens IMDEX 2019 with New Designs and Solutions for International Maritime Defence
ST have made available a usual product sheet on their website.

https://www.stengg.com/media/617840/imdex-2019-st-engineering-product-factsheet.pdf

The concept also allows for commonalities (e.g. scalable hull form, machinery & equipment, system & layout designs, standards for
outfitting and installation) across the different classes of vessels such as the new Vanguard 130 Multi-role Combatant, combatants such as frigate, light frigate, corvette, as well as offshore patrol vessel, and naval research and support vessel.

That approach makes some sense with respect to the time frame of the Anzac frigate replacement project and the Protector replacement project which will see another 2030's bottleneck.
 

Xthenaki

Active Member
Short video of Edda Fonn arriving in Auckland and berthed at DNB.


She's a big beasty.
View attachment 46575
IPV in foreground.

View attachment 46576
OPV on the left. Both images screenshots from the above video.
Very Impressive. The contrast in size to OPV and IPV in height, beam and obviously draft provide a vessel that could handle most conditions around NZ and the summer season in the Southern Ocean if available.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
I wonder if Navy will trial her in the southern ocean to see if a similar vessel could be acquired for use as the SOPV at a reduced cost in place of a new build at many $$$$$ millions.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I wonder if Navy will trial her in the southern ocean to see if a similar vessel could be acquired for use as the SOPV at a reduced cost in place of a new build at many $$$$$ millions.
Hope not, because what is really needed is something like the new RCN Harry DeWolf Class AOPV. We need something that is built specifically for and capable of operating in ice conditions. Since it is a VARD 7-100-ICE-AOPV it is vaguely similar to the Protector Class OPVs which are VARD 7-85-OPVs.
 

milliGal

Member
The latest RNZN twitter post shows both Te Kaha and Te Mana docked side by side in Esquimalt.

I may be wrong here, but the mast structure on the left ship seems pretty similar to the pre-upgraded frigates, which would imply that this is Te Mana and Te Kaha's upgrade is still very much a work in progress. I seem to recall that her upgrade was due to be complete by now so this suggests it is running more than a bit behind schedule. No mention of when she will be ready either so it seems we will be a frigate-less navy for a while longer.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
I wonder if Navy will trial her in the southern ocean to see if a similar vessel could be acquired for use as the SOPV at a reduced cost in place of a new build at many $$$$$ millions.

Careful what you wish for, that's the sort of thinking that gets us compromised lemons that are jack of all trades & master of none! ;)

AIUI RNZN is expected to lose 4 x IPV in order to get 1 x SOPV so they damn well need to spend top $$$ to get the right thing for the job... the southern ocean is a nasty place & the design needs to be robust & proven. 2 x SOPV is my preference. Remember that whilst everyone seems to have shifted to talking icebreakers... AIUI the requirement is an ice capable PV, no more.
 

Simon Ewing Jarvie

Active Member
The latest RNZN twitter post shows both Te Kaha and Te Mana docked side by side in Esquimalt.

I may be wrong here, but the mast structure on the left ship seems pretty similar to the pre-upgraded frigates, which would imply that this is Te Mana and Te Kaha's upgrade is still very much a work in progress. I seem to recall that her upgrade was due to be complete by now so this suggests it is running more than a bit behind schedule. No mention of when she will be ready either so it seems we will be a frigate-less navy for a while longer.
I'm hearing that there are delays in time and potentially cost overrun (again). My first OIA to the Defence Minister about this was answered on 4 April effectively saying it's all fine (see excerpt below).
upload_2019-5-17_13-36-54.png
However, I'm not convinced so I followed up with a second OIA asking what briefings the Minister had received about the Frigate Systems Upgrade since late last year. I got that reply on 1 May as follows:

upload_2019-5-17_13-40-38.png
upload_2019-5-17_13-41-9.png

I have now placed an OIA request for the status reports and will follow this through until I've got a clearer picture. With the second upgrade only just started, it may take another month or two for delays on that vessel to show up in the reports. Stand by.
 

Attachments

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
This week the Singapore-New Zealand Enhanced Partnership will also step up collaboration in

– trade and economics;
– security and defence;
– science, technology and innovation;
– and people-to-people links.

The prime ministers will also witness the signing of the upgraded Agreement between New Zealand and Singapore on a Closer Economic Partnership (ANZSCEP), around 17 or 18 May 2018. The ANZSCEP was Singapore’s first bilateral free trade agreement, and New Zealand’s second such agreement. It came into force in 2001.

Presently, Singapore and New Zealand cooperate closely on defence through platforms such as ADMM+ and the Five Power Defence Arrangements. I would support the growth of closer ties with NZDF, especially on technical training for crew and instructors for schools.
ST have made available a usual product sheet on their website.

https://www.stengg.com/media/617840/imdex-2019-st-engineering-product-factsheet.pdf

The concept also allows for commonalities (e.g. scalable hull form, machinery & equipment, system & layout designs, standards for
outfitting and installation) across the different classes of vessels such as the new Vanguard 130 Multi-role Combatant, combatants such as frigate, light frigate, corvette, as well as offshore patrol vessel, and naval research and support vessel.

That approach makes some sense with respect to the time frame of the Anzac frigate replacement project and the Protector replacement project which will see another 2030's bottleneck.
The MRCV class of vessels is intended to be built between 2025 to 2030; and ST Marine will be keen to extend the production line by 2 to 3 ships - with the Singapore Navy keen to provide additional support in the area of operator training and technical support with respect to exchangeable modules to be introduced over time, as the 5,000 ton Vanguard 130 design is optimised for unmanned vehicle operations, and features flushed doors on its port and starboards sides to support launch and recovery of remotely operated vehicles (ROVs) and autonomous underwater vehicles (AUVs). While current UAVs can extend a ship’s field of vision by 100km because of their range, RADM Cheong said it’s likely that those on the MRCV can go farther. “In the future, this range will increase because the control capabilities will improve,” he added. “It’s not very far-fetched to say that easily the ship will have awareness of maybe 150km around it” (Read more at Meet the Navy’s new ‘mothership’ that fights with unmanned drones and vessels). The Singapore Navy will allocate space in courses for NZDF personnel to be trained in UAV, ROV and AUV support at sea that our DSTA is working hard on, especially on counter mine warfare.

From what I see, ST Marine has taken the Littoral Mission Vessel’s (“LMV”) manning concept and transplanted to this class of ship - for a maritime security role (reflecting on lessons learnt from our navy’s counter piracy deployments to the gulf); and their impressive bridge simulator. Complex simulators used by the navy will lower training costs, increase safety and improve scenario training for the crew. The MRCV is likely to use the existing LMV Combat Management System that features a fusion and identification engine to track contacts, and provide threat evaluation weapon assignment. And you can tap on the same spiral upgrades that we will introduce for this class of ships without NZ bearing cost overrun risks - as the Singapore Navy would have implemented the upgrade by then.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Careful what you wish for, that's the sort of thinking that gets us compromised lemons that are jack of all trades & master of none! ;)

AIUI RNZN is expected to lose 4 x IPV in order to get 1 x SOPV so they damn well need to spend top $$$ to get the right thing for the job... the southern ocean is a nasty place & the design needs to be robust & proven. 2 x SOPV is my preference. Remember that whilst everyone seems to have shifted to talking icebreakers... AIUI the requirement is an ice capable PV, no more.
Losing the four IPV was under the last govt and something that I don't agree with. The current govt may have different ideas about that. Contrary to what some people think, the IPVs do carry out necessary roles within the RNZN and deep sixing them is a false economy, something that pollies, Treasury bean counters, and other land lubbers with little or no knowledge of how a navy or military operate, have a habit of doing, creating more expensive problems down the line for short term short sighted so called "gains".

Two A/SOPV would be ideal and long term an icebreaker should be seriously considered. The VARD 7-100-ICE-AOPV, of which the RCN Harry DeWolf Class AOPV is a sub-variant is classified as Polar Class 5: "PC 5 - Year-round operation in medium first-year ice, which may include old ice inclusions"*. The Aotearoa is rated for Polar Class 6: "PC 6 - Summer/autumn operation in medium first-year ice, which may include old ice inclusions"*. If both ships meet additional requirements cited below, then they can be termed icebreaker, so we aren't talking about icebreakers per se.

* Source:
UR I1 Rev2 CLN Polar Class Descriptions and Application

Additional requirements:
UR I2 Rev3 CLN Structural Requirements for Polar Class Ships - Rev.3 Apr 2016 Clean,
UR I3 Rev1 Corr1 CLN Machinery Requirements for Polar Class Ships - Rev.1 Corr.1 Oct 2007.
 
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