Video from RNZN Facebook page of Edda Fonn sailing into Wellington Harbour yesterday.
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
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Novascotiaboy
Active Member
Impressive looking vessel.
Hi Ngati - Four good shots of the EDDA FONN arriving and alongside at Wellington - 12/05/2019. Unable to download to larger photos. site is www.ShipSpotter.com
Simon Ewing Jarvie
Active Member
I know - never begin with apologies. However I'm new here (forgive my sins) and didn't realise there was an RNZN thread until after I posted this in the NZDF General Discussion. Not trying to double tap but since people are discussing Edda Fonn / MANAWANUI here I thought I'd add my thoughts. A couple of members have noted the potential 'logjam' for the RNZN in receiving several new platforms into service in a short period of time. I agree that's a challenge but not an insurmountable one. They are currently running an in-house accelerator from 29 Apr to 14 June (called Op Hiki Ano) for sailors across the board to cope. Of concern to me is the general trend since the late 90s of reducing surface combat capability in favour of other role vessels. Combined with a lack of mission redundancy in all platforms except IPVs (4) NZ could be described as 'Sea Blind' i.e. failing to understand and act on the strategic significance of our maritime environment. I've started a series of posts off today on maritime security based on the replacement of two vessels with a 15 year old civilian rig support ship. HMNZS PATIENCE
You are in a tough place @Simon Ewing Jarvie. Us Mods, especially the Kiwi ones, aren't priests and never forgive sins; it's just not in our nature since we're much like Grizz Wyllie in manner
.No probs. What would yo like me to do? Leave or delete the post in the NZDF thread?
Your "Sea Blind" is what is known as seablindness and as some here will attest too, an old saw horse of mine with regard to the NZG, public service and general public's attitude towards NZ's geostrategy, SLOC, maritime and economic security.
"Mahan worried that the riches of the American interior might seduce the people and the government away from a proper appreciation of the importance to them of the sea. Something of the sort, after all, has sometimes happened to the Canadians who have occasionally rejected 'the fading commercial glory of the maritime provinces and their archaic ocean-based economy and whole heartedly joined the central Canadian business empire'. Canada turned its back on the sea in this way after the First World War, and recovery was slow. If to this we add the seablindness of countries whose geographic circumstances are as ostentatiously maritime as, for example, New Zealand, it is clear that maritime geography is not an independent variable in the seapower equation. Instead, its effect, whether for good or ill, is determined by a country's perception, quite literally, of its place in the world." (Till, 2013, P. 93.)* Emphasis mine.
Till speaks of seablindness and uses NZ as a classic example. I have a strong belief that the aforementioned pollies, public servants and general public have such a strong illogical belief that the tad large moat that surrounds protects us from all the evils of the world, when it is patently obvious that it doesn't. One just has to look into our history to show the fallacy of that argument. The Pakeha colonisation of the 19th Century, the Russian scare in the late 19th century, the German scare of WW1, the German scare of WW2 and the great Japanese scare of WW2. In WW2 German and Japanese submarines operated in NZ waters, plus German mercantile raiders operated in waters that were within NZ's security area. All conveniently forgotten. Also forgotten, or ignored, are our SLOC and where they are located.
If you look at Till's comment about Canada in the quote above, referring back to and quoting Mahan, I think that the same can be said of NZ after both World Wars. WW1 NZ had the RN as it's maritime security guarantor, but after WW2 the RN and the UK were a shadow of themselves, so NZ latched on to the USN and USA to a certain degree, but still clinging to the skirts of the UK. NZ cut back on its defence spending as per standard practice for NZ and as time went by cut back more, downgrading its importance, until now its seen as a luxury rather than a necessity, especially the RNZN & RNZAF because they are expensive equipment wise.
Kiwi pollies and civil servants stick their heads in the sand when it comes to defence. They are a bit like ostriches, however ostriches have some semblance of intelligence. I would say that they would be closer to moas instead because the moa didn't have much, if any, intelligence. Both Kiwi pollies and civil servants need to look at a map, see where our SLOC actually are, grasp the concepts of what the SLOC are and what will happen to our country when, not if, they are disrupted or closed. If they want to know what the consequences are, look at what the USN submarine force did to Japan during WW2 and at the Battle of the Atlantic during WW2.
*TILL Geoffrey: 2013, Seapower: A Guide For The Twenty First Century, Third Edition, Routledge, New York, PP 412.
Simon Ewing Jarvie
Active Member
I'll take raised eyebrows and pursed lips as Kiwi secular forgiveness. Take the NZDF General Discussion down I think. I'll be more careful about which threads I'm in next time. Cheers. Nice to know there are others talking and publishing at a strategic level! Absolutely agree. Unfortunately, Defence is not a big vote winner - there is no 'burning platform' for politicians to fear. The main reason I publish the blog, other material and do conference presentations is to try to keep the defence conversation going in the public arena. The lack of specialist defence reporters doesn't make this easy.You are in a tough place @Simon Ewing Jarvie. Us Mods, especially the Kiwi ones, aren't priests and never forgive sins; it's just not in our nature since we're much like Grizz Wyllie in manner
No probs. What would yo like me to do? Leave or delete the post in the NZDF thread?
Your "Sea Blind" is what is known as seablindness and as some here will attest too, an old saw horse of mine with regard to the NZG, public service and general public's attitude towards NZ's geostrategy, SLOC, maritime and economic security.
Kiwi pollies and civil servants stick their heads in the sand when it comes to defence. They are a bit like ostriches, however ostriches have some semblance of intelligence. I would say that they would be closer to moas instead because the moa didn't have much, if any, intelligence. Both Kiwi pollies and civil servants need to look at a map, see where our SLOC actually are, grasp the concepts of what the SLOC are and what will happen to our country when, not if, they are disrupted or closed. If they want to know what the consequences are, look at what the USN submarine force did to Japan during WW2 and at the Battle of the Atlantic during WW2.
*TILL Geoffrey: 2013, Seapower: A Guide For The Twenty First Century, Third Edition, Routledge, New York, PP 412.
I haven't read Till 2013 but will be adding it to my list tonight. Thanks!Yep and even worse they intend to dump all 4 IPVs once the frigates are back & Manawanui & Aotearoa are go. The RNZN will then be the smallest it's ever been IIRC and half the size it was in the 1980's. Patently the current budgets are slowly squeezing the life out of the NZDF. Wish the Aussies would start getting openly stroppy about the level of spending...what else will change it!?!
I find it incredulous that given the biggest risk to NZ in both WW's was mines & indeed came to pass, so at the very least we should've learnt of the need to have a half-decent MCM capability to cover our major ports, even if we did nothing else Naval wise.... yup, sea blindness!
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We Aussies dare not get stroppy, after all you’ve just had the UN Secretary General tell the world that your virtuous PM is a world leader on inclusion and climate change.
We would be pilloried and condemned by the entitled masses for destroying the Great Barrier Reef and dare I say it, suggesting your Dear Leader has shortcomings.
After all, any re armament of the Pakeha and Maori masses may lead to a frenzied destruction of the social fabric and send unvirtuous signals to the rest of the world.
HaHa I like that! It seems that some of our past and present pollies love to posture to the world in front of the UN. Maybe they feel secure and then become reckless in thinking that the UN will save us in time of peril. They need to think again and realise how useless the UN have been in past conflicts.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Hopefully our dear leader junior is gone in October. Canada and New Zealead electorates just don't get it wrt national defence and probably never will until it is too late.
. Canada and New Zealead electorates just don't get it wrt national defence and probably never will until it is too late.
Have you been sniffing the squirt barrel again Assail? You knows that you aren't entitled to a tot. You'll just have to stick to pink gins.
I see that our Dear Leader has been voted as the most popular PM in Australia, so we are arranging for her to be the next but one Australian PM before Christmas. Then she'll be your Dear Leader and not ours
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
The needs of the nations defence always seem to fall by the wayside when a nation does not see the threat. MCM support is virtually non existent across many nations navies yet the fact that a rogue nation or group could cause so much havoc by dropping mines from unsuspecting commercial vessels into shipping lanes has been missed by our political masses.
Multi role vessels such as the new Manawanui have a role to play supporting MCM operations via AUVs but there still needs to be true capability within the fleet.
It is unfortunate that NZ like Canada has chosen to upgrade twenty year old hulls instead of replacing them at this time. Three new surface combatants should be the minimum with four being preferred to allow one in deep maintenance, one in training and two at least available for deployment. When the time comes for this I can only hope that things have not fallen off the rails as you just don't go to the warship store and pick a couple up cheap.
Lets hope that word will soon come forward on the planned SOPV. I think the high tempo of acquisition with the two new vessels and the platform upgrades of the frigates taking up a lot of staff time. With two more Dewolfes in the offing from Irving for the Canadian Coast Guard the line will be running for a few years yet. A Dewolfe with a Kiwi on the funnel would look great. These vessels have the size that armament could be upgraded so as to be a true warship especially with CMS330 already installed. Maybe Millenium forward and Mk 38 port and starboard along with two six packs of SEACEPTOR.
Multi role vessels such as the new Manawanui have a role to play supporting MCM operations via AUVs but there still needs to be true capability within the fleet.
It is unfortunate that NZ like Canada has chosen to upgrade twenty year old hulls instead of replacing them at this time. Three new surface combatants should be the minimum with four being preferred to allow one in deep maintenance, one in training and two at least available for deployment. When the time comes for this I can only hope that things have not fallen off the rails as you just don't go to the warship store and pick a couple up cheap.
Lets hope that word will soon come forward on the planned SOPV. I think the high tempo of acquisition with the two new vessels and the platform upgrades of the frigates taking up a lot of staff time. With two more Dewolfes in the offing from Irving for the Canadian Coast Guard the line will be running for a few years yet. A Dewolfe with a Kiwi on the funnel would look great. These vessels have the size that armament could be upgraded so as to be a true warship especially with CMS330 already installed. Maybe Millenium forward and Mk 38 port and starboard along with two six packs of SEACEPTOR.
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
So, does that mean we get Winston Peters in the interm? That would be interesting...Have you been sniffing the squirt barrel again Assail? You knows that you aren't entitled to a tot. You'll just have to stick to pink gins.
I see that our Dear Leader has been voted as the most popular PM in Australia, so we are arranging for her to be the next but one Australian PM before Christmas. Then she'll be your Dear Leader and not ours
View attachment 46564
That is a terrible thing to wish upon our friends across the Tasman NG. We have already sent them Raelene Castle to ruin the ARU. Jacindarella would be just too vindictive.I see that our Dear Leader has been voted as the most popular PM in Australia, so we are arranging for her to be the next but one Australian PM before Christmas. Then she'll be your Dear Leader and not ours
You shouldn’t have brought that up, I was marginally ok until you mentioned that apparition. She’ll end up pissing off the half of our team who are Polynesian and we’ll be beaten by Namibia.
My God what a horror, take her home please!
In New Zealand's case it might even be fortunate for us, namely politicians and joe public, long term to suffer a SLOC shock for a month or two which see's the ability of us to freely trade heavily curtailed by geo-political circumstances. We are really the most vulnerable country in that regard. Would improve our chances of a four surface combatant baseline which is where we should be.
The DeWolf / VARD-7 100 ICE design would be ideal SOPV. Though for now I would have to be convinced that having SeaCeptor would be necessary on principally a maritime constabulary and presence vessel in the Southern Ocean.
For "A few more bucks" would prefer to see a RNZN manned and operated version of Australias new RSV Nuyina . Maybe USN Deep Freeze and or NIWA would be interested and offset some of the running costs.
Sorry mate for being so insensitive. It is the black lippie that makes me cringe.
Simon Ewing Jarvie
Active Member
I agree - 97% of all our trade moves by sea and it's quite likely to happen eventually. The two greatest national security risks for NZ right now are a pandemic or a biosecurity threat. Either of these could effectively quarantine the country. Trouble is, will it happen before the outbreak of conflict in time for us to prepare to defend SLOC/ALOC in the future? That's too great a gamble to take. Frustrating that the DPMC/ODESC officials wargame these scenarios but the results don't seem to find their way into the correct policy and investment channels.
That will be fun. It must be, oh, six months since the last politician was turfed out of our Parliament for having even long forgotten citizenship of another country. Jacinda would be a relief. No argument, no delays, no court cases, just kick her back across the water to freeload on her own electorate.I see that our Dear Leader has been voted as the most popular PM in Australia, so we are arranging for her to be the next but one Australian PM before Christmas. Then she'll be your Dear Leader and not ours
oldsig