Royal New Zealand Air Force

[Todjaeger]

Starting point is really what does the fleet look like.
Composition and numbers.
How many are aviation capable vessels ?

Going forward it’s basically a clean slate to build a fleet but for the refuelling ship Aotearoa.
So how many helicopters?


Answer. How many ships

There is a bit more to it though. The number of vessels, especially if the fleet size is increased over all like many of us believe is necessary, can have an impact, but it is not automatically so. If one looks at the current RNZN fleet composition there are six ocean-going vessels able to embark helicopters in commission, however only two of them would really be able to make full use of the capabilities a naval helicopter could provide. The CMS and comms fitout for four of the vessels are effectively not able to receive or display the sensor data a naval helicopter could collect. Making this even worse is that at least three of the vessels lack a hangar magazine, which in turn means that any embarked naval helicopter would be effectively unarmed as well. Not sure about whether Aotearoa was designed/built with a hangar magazine or not.

So then any questions considering the future size of the RNZN fleet also would need to consider what capabilities would be designed into future fleet vessels. For instance, if (big IF) a SOPV does get added back into the list of vessels for the RNZN of the future, how flexible and/or how capable will the design be? If the intention is to obtain a patrolling vessel suitable for the ice and sea conditions near Antarctica in the Southern Ocean, then a minimal armament and more importantly, less expensive and capable sensor, comms, and CMS fitout, one lacking the ability to make much use of datalinks, would be fitted. In a similar fashion, if new OPV's are purchased to replace the Project Protector OPV's and are of similar shipboard electronics capabilities then much of the potential benefit from an embarked helicopter would be lost.

To further complicate the question, there might also be some value in NZ having a few operational land-based naval helicopters that could provide an airborne surveillance and response capability close to NZ proper.

Hence my comment on the NZDF needing to determine how many helicopters would be needed operationally and then working from there to determine the order size.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

A little more clarity where that $2b is going and why it seemed a bit step to most. The $2b covers the first 4 years of running them, training maintenance and even fuel (apparently)

Also I picked up that while we didn't get the NH-90 from Australia before they buried them apparently we got a heap of spare parts...

 

[ngatimozart]

Judith was asked how many new helicopters would be procured and she answered five.

(at 10:50).

She justified this by saying that we currently have five operational seasprites. When the replacement helicopters are new this will be less of an issue as the new airframes will have high availability rates. However, over the medium to long term the new airframes will need more maintenance. This could result in fewer than five airframes being available. Furthermore, this doesn't give us much leeway if an airframe is lost.

I think this bodes poorly for the rest of the DCP. A smaller fleet of maritime helicopters is inconsistent with the desire for a larger navy or more frigates. Like with the p8s this is a government investing the minimum amount to match its rhetoric.

There is actually a lot that we don't know how this funding will be allocated. $2 billion plus for just five helos plus their maintenance, manuals, training, simulators, etc., doesn't sound right. I suspect that there are other capabilities, such as UAV involved that they haven't publicly mentioned yet. Maybe they are going to acquire marinsed AW109 to supplement whatever maritime combat they are going to acquire. We simply don't know.

 

[ngatimozart]

Hopefully the naval review will be available by the end of this year so that the full picture on its restructure can be seen. I concur with Todjaeger that the OPV's are not the ideal platform for a high end capability as he has stated above. I would like to see the OPV.s disposed of and funding put into a light frigate with further to follow over time as already proposed in the latest DCP. We need three frigates including our ANZAC.s - ASAP

I would like to see a third frigate acquired quickly but we can't do that until we know what we are going to replace the Anzacs with. From memory that project started about three years ago. It has been my contention that the OPV & IPV fleet of six should be replaced with corvettes that have modular capabilities. I also believe that our future frigates and corvettes should be ice capable to the same level as Aotearoa, and built for the Southern Ocean. Eventually we will have to project force to our south and we will be the only ones who have the experience or capability to do so. The RAN certainly doesn't operate below 48°S, and we won't be able to depend upon the USN.

 

[kiwi in exile]

Not the most informed discussion and MINDEF doesn't exactly cover herself in glory. Cannot recall the name of the 'naval blackhawks' "they expect me to be the expert" Yes. Yes we do. Thats $2billion of taxpayer money and future NZDF capability your playing with.

Plunket: "can the naval blackhawk one fit on the back of the frigate?'
Collins "don't ask me about those technical details"